Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, wymberley said:

Thanks for posting, I was just going to ask about this and getting back to the topic in hand. I can't seem to find any reference to the immediate involvement of the GTA/and/or cartridge makers in this announcement other than asking them to be involved together with the associations' menbership. Has this announcement been made without any input/knowledge of it from/by this manufacturing base - but obviously the loaders in the main? I, personally, can't believe that is the case but don't know and it seems to me that 5 years - judging by the progress made over the previous 40 or more - is not all that viable. Consequently, I hope this is not the case and that they have been involved/consulted from the off and that this is not a pie in the sky figure plucked at random from the ether.One representative form one organisation did pop in earlier to day for a quick look so I wonder if the next similar visitor could give us a clue - unless someone already knows the answer.

It will no doubt become clear to what level cartridge firm were involved at some point. anything was say now here is just going to basicaly by guesswork.

Developments?

We are constantly told of the big advancements in non tox ammo.

In reality, its not new as such "perhaps these bio wads TSS etc" just firms, doing detail changes with perhaps newer powders etc better suited to steel etc than some used in the time of the wildfowling lead ban.

We can still use AO. Blue dot HS^ many been around from the old lead fowling days.  Rio a big outfit eley saaga etc they have improved ignition with the hotter G1000 primers, but again not anything we did not have and more from CCI209M fed 209A etc.

 Wads? again not much change RSI"SAM1" still my favourite, but B&P does it too, these and others been around decades, so nothing new.

Shot? well Mirage soft iron and platted shot"Steel". in steel again not much change.

So on the face of it where is the advances we keep hearing about. ?

 Its all about the combination of components matching powders to tasks and getting loads to work, in the early days they went bang and the rest was not always certain.

I do not use gamebore ammo. Any kind. but i know if you look at their Steel line. Starting with the Supper steel to the ten ga Rhino. they might not be the best loads or match reloads, but those that use steel know they work, they get them results and they see no problem with them. I dont. But i chose to reload thats all.

 Bismuth needs buffering it really does, and AFAIK eley no longer buffer bismuth, they did up to the early 2000s but then, they started loading in Remington cases at that time. no buffer and the results were clear to see in a negative way.

ITM  came and went. and the Toungsten shotsc came about today in TSS etc. these are advancements.

Copper? Toxic yes but legal . And it works. but only B&P and FOB bothered to use it for a wile until Rotweiel started using it a couple of years ago.

It has a use and it was not there in 2000s so supose it could loosely be classed as an improvement but a less clear one perhaps.

But i do not think any of us will deny the more recent factory offerings are better than the early stuff, with the possible exception of the buffered Bismuth.

Improvements i see as possible and desirable are Improvement / more options/ and cheaper bio steel wads. and A return to some more progresive powders sadly no longer with us, but missed, perhaps there will be other available in due course that can replicate or improve upon those older powders.

[Salopian]

As a long time supporter of BASC can I just remind us all that BASC have always stated that they will support the phasing out of Lead in the environment PROVIDING an economical , efficient alternative to Lead shot can be identified.

I have seen the development of soft iron ( steel?) shot price escalate to be more expensive than some Lead loads and although I prefer and use Tungsten it is very expensive .

If lead shot is so harmful to wildfowl  why is it that we have not seen significant increases in wildfowl population since the implementation of a leadshot ban for wildfowling?

If lead is so harmful to the environment why is it that many lead mining communities have not shown significant mortality figures ?

[Scully]

This 'ban' wont really have an effect on me ( which doesn't mean I'm not angry ) as I don't own any guns through which I wouldn't shoot steel. I own eleven 12 bores, none of which ( with one exception ) are proofed for steel, and no smaller bores nor any Damascus barrelled guns. 

However, our cartridge manufacturers need to get their act together now to create affordable and effective cartridges for those minor bores, which are already more expensive to buy than 12's ( not everyone wants to reload ) so none of those guns become obsolete. It's worth pointing out that because this 'ban' isn't at the insistence of our government, but rather that our organisations have decided on a phase out, prior to an inevitable ban, there will be no compensation for those who find their collectibles now rendered in effect, wall hangers. I have no doubt ( but no proof ) that government ministers have declared that 'lead is going, prep' your membership', but with our organisations taking the initiative to instigate a voluntary phase out, government is now not responsible for a ban, and therefore not liable for compensation. They aren't daft. 

[Blackpowder]

3 minutes ago, Salopian said:

As a long time supporter of BASC can I just remind us all that BASC have always stated that they will support the phasing out of Lead in the environment PROVIDING an economical , efficient alternative to Lead shot can be identified.

I have seen the development of soft iron ( steel?) shot price escalate to be more expensive than some Lead loads and although I prefer and use Tungsten it is very expensive .

If lead shot is so harmful to wildfowl  why is it that we have not seen significant increases in wildfowl population since the implementation of a leadshot ban for wildfowling?

If lead is so harmful to the environment why is it that many lead mining communities have not shown significant mortality figures ?

Good reply

 

Blackpowder

[Salopian]

Very interested to see ALL the Gameshooting representative associations voicing their collective opinion about the horrors of Lead shot .

But note that the CPSA is not involved and that Clayshooting will not have to conform to the Lead ban .

Could one of your Scientists please tell me the amount of Lead and plastic deposited into the environment by Gameshooting compared with Clayshooting which use a substantial amount more of Lead cartridges every week per annum?

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, Papercase said:

BASC is our union - by leaving it rather than engaging with it I would term that as scabbing, being united we are stronger - that means not everyone will agree with everything and their will be compromise. If you feel let down by them call them - I imagine people far more educated in the science, legal and political landscape than me or you. BASC and GWCT etc have made this difficult decision - having delayed it for years scared of the average shooter who wants to carry on exactly the same as before spitting their dummy out

Exactly was there saw it going on,  drop out of the NUM just to ride the bus in and get paid. As long as not stopped from earning/ shooting lead its all good. It fits definitely.

  You might not love BASC anynore than you loved scargill, but like he said all the pits will go, lead will go. only Unions are giving us a chance of a transition that is painless and if anything we / the environment will benefit, not just for us but those in future times, we can not go on throwing tons of lead all over the place just because we think steel is for tame wildfowlers not other shooters.

Get with the plan there is no picket lines no hunger no loss just common sence clear cut advice given on a smoother transition to a brighter future for our sport.

[lancer425]

41 minutes ago, Sharpshooter.123 said:

Never said that it didn’t but it will be a bloody sight worse when it’s steel. 

Point is anything can ricochet, yes we need eye protection, we should be wearing it all the time anyway. If we dont its down to us. 

8 minutes ago, Scully said:

This 'ban' wont really have an effect on me ( which doesn't mean I'm not angry ) as I don't own any guns through which I wouldn't shoot steel. I own eleven 12 bores, none of which ( with one exception ) are proofed for steel, and no smaller bores nor any Damascus barrelled guns. 

However, our cartridge manufacturers need to get their act together now to create affordable and effective cartridges for those minor bores, which are already more expensive to buy than 12's ( not everyone wants to reload ) so none of those guns become obsolete. It's worth pointing out that because this 'ban' isn't at the insistence of our government, but rather that our organisations have decided on a phase out, prior to an inevitable ban, there will be no compensation for those who find their collectibles now rendered in effect, wall hangers. I have no doubt ( but no proof ) that government ministers have declared that 'lead is going, prep' your membership', but with our organisations taking the initiative to instigate a voluntary phase out, government is now not responsible for a ban, and therefore not liable for compensation. They aren't daft. 

I can see why you came up with that and its probably true of close enough to it lets put it that way.

[Scully]

Lead is now, as we all know, politically incorrect, for various reasons, so I cannot see how clay shooting can nor should escape this 'ban'. If it's about the environment then it has to apply to clay shooting also, as does the 'single use plastic' statement.   I would be even angrier than I am now if that were not the case. And before anyone says otherwise, I am also a clay shooter. 

If it's not about the environment then what else is it about? 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Scully

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Lead is now, as we all know, politically incorrect, for various reasons, so I cannot see how clay shooting can nor should escape this 'ban'. If it's about the environment then it has to apply to clay shooting also, as does the 'single use plastic' statement.   I would be even angrier than I am now if that were not the case. And before anyone says otherwise, I am also a clay shooter. 

If it's not about the environment then what else is it about? 

brilliant point if it’s going to be banned it should be complete not half a job 

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, Scully said:

I would be even angrier than I am now if that were not the case.

As I understand it - the proposed 'voluntary ban' only applies to game and field use - NOT clays for which lead will continue.

 

32 minutes ago, Scully said:

However, our cartridge manufacturers need to get their act together now to create affordable and effective cartridges for those minor bores,

It isn't only 'minor bores', but all the 2 1/2" chambered 12 bores (the vast majority of 19th and 20th century English and Scottish 12 bore guns (no doubt any Welsh and Irish guns as well)).  I understand from another site that Hull Cartridge have tested steel 2 1/2" in the past (1990s), but didn't at that time follow through with development into production.

21 minutes ago, Scully said:

If it's not about the environment then what else is it about?

It could be about pacifying the Packhams, Averys and Co of this world.

Edited February 24, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[Smokersmith]

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Hope so i would use them in a heartbeat and i am sure you would. Most wildfowlers are about the environment, and i am sure game shooters are just the same, they just lack knowledge and need a bit of a shove to get them out of their dirty habit. I remember i had to chastise my brother to stop that filthy smoking habit he had too. it happens but its for the greater vgood and aids long term survival in both instances.

From Eley:-

We have a long way to go in the eco-steel load development before bringing it out as a home-load/reloading element.

Please bear with us, and we will let you know of any developments ASAP.

Looks like I'll be going down the 'inverted card cup' route as I do with the 8 !!

 

 

[wymberley]

34 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

It will no doubt become clear to what level cartridge firm were involved at some point. anything was say now here is just going to basicaly by guesswork.

Developments?

We are constantly told of the big advancements in non tox ammo.

In reality, its not new as such "perhaps these bio wads TSS etc" just firms, doing detail changes with perhaps newer powders etc better suited to steel etc than some used in the time of the wildfowling lead ban.

We can still use AO. Blue dot HS^ many been around from the old lead fowling days.  Rio a big outfit eley saaga etc they have improved ignition with the hotter G1000 primers, but again not anything we did not have and more from CCI209M fed 209A etc.

 Wads? again not much change RSI"SAM1" still my favourite, but B&P does it too, these and others been around decades, so nothing new.

Shot? well Mirage soft iron and platted shot"Steel". in steel again not much change.

So on the face of it where is the advances we keep hearing about. ?

 Its all about the combination of components matching powders to tasks and getting loads to work, in the early days they went bang and the rest was not always certain.

I do not use gamebore ammo. Any kind. but i know if you look at their Steel line. Starting with the Supper steel to the ten ga Rhino. they might not be the best loads or match reloads, but those that use steel know they work, they get them results and they see no problem with them. I dont. But i chose to reload thats all.

 Bismuth needs buffering it really does, and AFAIK eley no longer buffer bismuth, they did up to the early 2000s but then, they started loading in Remington cases at that time. no buffer and the results were clear to see in a negative way.

ITM  came and went. and the Toungsten shotsc came about today in TSS etc. these are advancements.

Copper? Toxic yes but legal . And it works. but only B&P and FOB bothered to use it for a wile until Rotweiel started using it a couple of years ago.

It has a use and it was not there in 2000s so supose it could loosely be classed as an improvement but a less clear one perhaps.

But i do not think any of us will deny the more recent factory offerings are better than the early stuff, with the possible exception of the buffered Bismuth.

Improvements i see as possible and desirable are Improvement / more options/ and cheaper bio steel wads. and A return to some more progresive powders sadly no longer with us, but missed, perhaps there will be other available in due course that can replicate or improve upon those older powders.

That'll be a 'no' then.

2 hours ago, lancer425 said:

Thanks, and no sunrise  from that quarter .

You're looking the wrong way, theirs rises in the west and of course, never sets on the righteous.

[Smokersmith]

18 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It isn't only 'minor bores', but all the 2 1/2" chambered 12 bores (the vast majority of 19th and 20th century English and Scottish 12 bore guns (no doubt any Welsh and Irish guns as well)).  I understand from another site that Hull Cartridge have tested steel 2 1/2" in the past (1990s), but didn't at that time follow through with development into production.

Now would be a good time!!

I can see the potential return of RTO's to get a bit more case volume.

[wymberley]

Just now, Smokersmith said:

Now would be a good time!!

I can see the potential return of RTO's to get a bit more case volume.

What goes round.........

[lancer425]

23 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

From Eley:-

We have a long way to go in the eco-steel load development before bringing it out as a home-load/reloading element.

Please bear with us, and we will let you know of any developments ASAP.

Looks like I'll be going down the 'inverted card cup' route as I do with the 8 !!

 

 

Have you heard the one about aloy foil card cup liners, to stop the crumbling on the slit edges?  I have yet to tyy it but heard it works off a Scotish lad a few weeks back.

[scutt]

33 minutes ago, Scully said:

Lead is now, as we all know, politically incorrect, for various reasons, so I cannot see how clay shooting can nor should escape this 'ban'. If it's about the environment then it has to apply to clay shooting also, as does the 'single use plastic' statement.   I would be even angrier than I am now if that were not the case. And before anyone says otherwise, I am also a clay shooter. 

If it's not about the environment then what else is it about? 

the purchase power of  clay shooters should be added to game shooters to give the cartridge makers incentive to get on with producing an alternative to lead.

[adzyvilla]

39 minutes ago, Scully said:

Lead is now, as we all know, politically incorrect, for various reasons, so I cannot see how clay shooting can nor should escape this 'ban'. If it's about the environment then it has to apply to clay shooting also, as does the 'single use plastic' statement.   I would be even angrier than I am now if that were not the case. And before anyone says otherwise, I am also a clay shooter. 

If it's not about the environment then what else is it about? 

And if BASC et al were only going to support a ban on lead if the science supported such measures, it makes you wonder if they aren't straight about this, what else are they lying about. If there is evidence, publish it and make the case, if not then why believe a word our so called organisations say?

If there are other reasons, then why not be open about it with the membership before kneejerking something as big as this. 

[Petay]

16 minutes ago, scutt said:

the purchase power of  clay shooters should be added to game shooters to give the cartridge makers incentive to get on with producing an alternative to lead.

I'd imagine this announcement was discussed beforehand with the ones who are members of the UK gun trade association so my guess is they'll have the incentive, the problem will be the cost and that will be passed onto the end consumer. I'd agree that if clay shooting were also in scope it would help bring down the price of these new eco wad, eco case, eco shoot cartridges faster. Issue of ricochet of steel shot at some clay grounds still remains though and that will need addressing. 

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, anyone know who will be the UK importer of these Armusa greenshot cartridges or RFDs/ clay shooting clubs/ started to sell these, not on Just Carts web site yet, i did find a clay forum member buying some from his local club, £185 per 1000, cheers

Purbeck shooting school used to be the importers a few years back when the Armusa green shoot cartridges first arrived in the UK.

[Scully]

58 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

As I understand it - the proposed 'voluntary ban' only applies to game and field use - NOT clays for which lead will continue.

Then it's not about the environment. Even the statement regarding single use plastic applies to clay shooters. 

It could be about pacifying the Packhams, Averys and Co of this world. 

Possibly, but to what end? We'll still be killing stuff with steel. If anyone believes the above are concerned about the environment or public health ( if I recall wasn't that latter particular myth soundly put to bed by the FSA, last time we did this? ) any more than the rest of us, and that they will be placated to any extent by the demise of lead shot, they have to be naive beyond belief, surely. 

 

[rbrowning2]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

It is like being in a time warp, we heard all this when it came into fowling 20 years ago.  Most guns with steel barrels not Damascus can handle normal steel.  just buy it like you do lead and go and use it. Leave your chokes alone, touch nothing.  Do your research just wade through the wildfowling section on here, you will be able to work out what’s involved re proof etc from threads and pinned info on there.

As a starter for 10, to get you going on steel. Get your Miroku/ beretta SP/ Rizini / baikal/ zoli / zabala/ just about anything with 70mm chambers.

Go into a local gunshop, and ask for a box of Gamebore supper steel 32 gram in 4s if they only got 5s or 3s buy them anyway. go out and shoot pigeons with that box of cartridges .  Only reason i say gb supper steel is they are most shops and though not the best work ok.   If you can clean kill pigeons with lead 6s or 7s then you will still be doing the same with that box of steel. if your crippling missing etc sort your act out dont blame the ammo.

 Perhaps no 2.5 inch right now but that will change, and reload is always an option.

That is very good until somebody gets injured,  if my information is correct their was a big payout in America because somebody was shooting 7.62 in a .308win rifle (common practice) and it exploded injuring a bye standard it went to court and the Winchester expert said our guns are chambered for .308win not 7.62 and the judge ruled that the accident was due to incorrect ammunition being used.

So if an accident happened in the uk due to steel shot being used in a gun not proofed for steel shot would the manufacture stand in court and say the correct cartridge was being used? and my question to David basc is does basc insurance cover that situation?   
 

 

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

That is very good until somebody gets injured,  if my information is correct their was a big payout in America because somebody was shooting 7.62 in a .308win rifle (common practice) and it exploded injuring a bye standard it went to court and the Winchester expert said our guns are chambered for .308win not 7.62 and the judge ruled that the accident was due to incorrect ammunition being used.

So if an accident happened in the uk due to steel shot being used in a gun not proofed for steel shot would the manufacture stand in court and say the correct cartridge was being used? and my question to David basc is does basc insurance cover that situation?   
 

 

You could PM him now, he's currently online. 🙂

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

Then it's not about the environment. Even the statement regarding single use plastic applies to clay shooters. 

The theory I understand is that lead can be hoovered up and 'sifted' on clays grounds.  I'm not saying it is either done much - or effective - but that seems to be the thought.  I have never heard of it being done at any ground I have shot at ......

 

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

Possibly, but to what end?

I think 'getting at' the fieldsports community is more important to some of their followers than saving any wildlife.

[oldypigeonpopper]

19 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Purbeck shooting school used to be the importers a few years back when the Armusa green shoot cartridges first arrived in the UK.

hello, thankyou i did see that on a uk clay forum, i have emailed Just Carts if they are going to stock these in future

[wymberley]

23 hours ago, Farmboy91 said:

@David BASC bit of reassurance now would go a long way 👍

They've been, they've seen and they've legged it.