Lead ban & BASC

[theshootist]

17 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

If by a Sidelock you mean a 65mm or 70mm 12 ga. I can not understand why it would be a problem with steel. I have never reloaded and 65mm steel in 12ga. But they are the same under SAMI rules as the 3 inch magnums re pressure.

 And case volume is not as big an issue as you might think, as steel wads do not have any cush section or need cush as in felt etc. Do its powder straight to the wad so giving more room for shot and some closure on the case.

I think you would certainly get a B&P 24 in / and a B&P28, with a bit of setback you might get 30 gram of 4s in steel in that case with a RTO or even a crimp. Not checked it if i am honest but put it this way , it will still be capable of typical game shooting as in walked upor even driven game at   at sane ranges.

You will have 30% fewer pellets in your pattern though. 

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

If you were to publish that photograph on the front page of any UK newspaper as being indicative of the future of our sport, how long do you think we'd last? Answer in minutes, please.

I genuinely do not see what you are implying here .   They are on the portly side, but just look like a pair of fowlers holding up a few ducks. 

[Smokersmith]

1 minute ago, theshootist said:

You will have 30% fewer pellets in your pattern though. 

In your shell .. not necessarily pattern.

[PeterHenry]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Conor O'Gorman,

I would imagine that your FAQ post is representative of the views of all of the organisations involved in the current discussion. From your list, it certainly looks as though everything in the garden will be coming up roses. To give a balanced view, could you go again on behalf of the organisations and produce a list of the disadvantages that may well be inherent and any financial implications which may result from your action. Given both sides of the coin, members of all the group organisation can then assess the situation as opposed to the possibility of simply being force fed the one aspect. I only post in the knowledge that nothing in this world is either perfect or exactly as it would appear.

Many thanks.

Thank you, Peter. Either I made my point badly or you missed it.

Re-reading your post, I think I probably missed it.

[yod dropper]

There was a good interview on Farming Today on radio 4 Monday morning with a chap from the GWCT and I think somebody from roughly the other side, well worth a listen.

 

I have a bit of an insight into broader matters and it's only going one way.

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, i was googling what NON HP steel cartridges are available to buy in uk for clay and game/pigeon but seems very few choices, 

[wymberley]

7 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Re-reading your post, I think I probably missed it.

Peter, it's of no consequence. My point about the photo's was a stand alone comment but as I posted twice quickly it was tagged on to the other one. My point was that if those two guys are the epitome of British 'fowlers then Duncan is turning in his grave

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, theshootist said:

You will have 30% fewer pellets in your pattern though. 

As far as the pellet count chart is concerned yes.  But kills are not made by charts . they are made by pellets in a pattern. This is where steel closes the gap on Lead dramatically. No deformity in steel remember.

Steel is depressing reading, wildfowlers were sobbing when they first read it.

But now 20 year on remember4, its not about direct comparison it is about overal performance, and steel is good. Certainly good enough. 

It will work in the guns typically used now but many who use say 525s Silver pigeons etc they tend to be 3 inch which gives you 36 gram potential. or vbuy a Silver pigeon steel 3.5 binch or a Browning waterfowl 35 inch and you got 45 gram of 4s in a B&P44 possible a little more with a touch of set back. How much shot do you want.

[mick miller]

In all honesty I think the game shooting fraternity should be looking at a voluntary ban on the release and subsequent shooting of all game birds within the next five years. Despite the evidence that game meat is sustainable and the allied activities benefit many other species, the general public is largely against the wholesale release of thousands of reared, non-native birds into the environment every year simply to be shot for sport. We don't need them for food and chickens are much more cost effective to raise anyway.

Whereas pigeon, rabbit and crow shooting can still hold the moral high ground, providing a valuable and free service to the farming community and the country as a whole (think of the cost of publicly funded pest species control), the game shooting industries can make no such claims. The tide of public opinion is marching inexorably onwards toward this outcome and, despite best efforts, it is clear that game shooting has been painted into a corner od sustainability and credibility.

It is with this in mind that I propose that all organisations get behind my suggested capitulation, despite any evidence to the contrary, and adopt this wholesale, voluntary, moratorium on game shooting as soon as possible. It is clear that this is the logical next step. We can kiss goodbye to the controversial muirburn policies, the tarring by association by unscrupulous game keepers and the accusations of raptor persecution. This would leave the rest of us in a much better place, those that simply shoot species such as deer, fox, rabbit, pigeon and crow for pest or species control without the fear of having the mud thrown at us for our legal, necessary activities, or the clay and target shooting communities whose activities take place in controlled and defined areas that do not affect SSSI's or any other sensitive area.

Whose with me?

Edited February 25, 2020 by mick miller

[Smokersmith]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Peter, it's of no consequence. My point about the photo's was a stand alone comment but as I posted twice quickly it was tagged on to the other one. My point was that if those two guys are the epitome of British 'fowlers then Duncan is turning in his grave

Please be specific on what you find offensive?

There are countless pictures of old fowlers in identical situations.

[lancer425]

3 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Peter, it's of no consequence. My point about the photo's was a stand alone comment but as I posted twice quickly it was tagged on to the other one. My point was that if those two guys are the epitome of British 'fowlers then Duncan is turning in his grave

But they are from idaho. USA,  I posted the VIDEO to illustrate .410 were capable killers on steel. not discus semantics on the garb they chose to wear or the fact they stood talking holding on to some ducks.

[rbrowning2]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

As far as the pellet count chart is concerned yes.  But kills are not made by charts . they are made by pellets in a pattern. This is where steel closes the gap on Lead dramatically. No deformity in steel remember.

Steel is depressing reading, wildfowlers were sobbing when they first read it.

But now 20 year on remember4, its not about direct comparison it is about overal performance, and steel is good. Certainly good enough. 

It will work in the guns typically used now but many who use say 525s Silver pigeons etc they tend to be 3 inch which gives you 36 gram potential. or vbuy a Silver pigeon steel 3.5 binch or a Browning waterfowl 35 inch and you got 45 gram of 4s in a B&P44 possible a little more with a touch of set back. How much shot do you want.

So now we need 3inch cartridges yet more expense oh what fun this is just glad it is voluntary as I am not in the business of saving game shooting for the large estates who are in it to make money. The sooner defra limits their number of birds that can be released the better to return game shooting back to small local shoots.

 

 

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

But they are from idaho. USA,  I posted the VIDEO to illustrate .410 were capable killers on steel. not discus semantics on the garb they chose to wear or the fact they stood talking holding on to some ducks.

The USA do not work to CIP limits for steel, so greater down rage energy than  CIP allows.

 

 

[Smokersmith]

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So now we need 3inch cartridges yet more expense oh what fun this is just glad it is voluntary as I am not in the business of saving game shooting for the large estates who are in it to make money. The sooner defra limits their number of birds that can be released the better to return game shooting back to small local shoots.

 

 

28g of steel is very effective.

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So now we need 3inch cartridges yet more expense oh what fun this is just glad it is voluntary as I am not in the business of saving game shooting for the large estates who are in it to make money. The sooner defra limits their number of birds that can be released the better to return game shooting back to small local shoots.

 

 

I did not say we needed 3 inch . i said "It(steel that is)  will work in the guns typically used now but" then i mentioned typical moder guns use in game shooting 525 and siver pigeon.

 In its entirety. "It will work in the guns typically used now but many who use say 525s Silver pigeons etc they tend to be 3 inch which gives you 36 gram potential. or vbuy a Silver pigeon steel 3.5 binch or a Browning waterfowl 35 inch and you got 45 gram of 4s in a B&P44 possible a little more with a touch of set back. How much shot do you want."

14 minutes ago, mick miller said:

In all honesty I think the game shooting fraternity should be looking at a voluntary ban on the release and subsequent shooting of all game birds within the next five years. Despite the evidence that game meat is sustainable and the allied activities benefit many other species, the general public is largely against the wholesale release of thousands of reared, non-native birds into the environment every year simply to be shot for sport. We don't need them for food and chickens are much more cost effective to raise anyway.

Whereas pigeon, rabbit and crow shooting can still hold the moral high ground, providing a valuable and free service to the farming community and the country as a whole (think of the cost of publicly funded pest species control), the game shooting industries can make no such claims. The tide of public opinion is marching inexorably onwards toward this outcome and, despite best efforts, it is clear that game shooting has been painted into a corner od sustainability and credibility.

It is with this in mind that I propose that all organisations get behind my suggested capitulation, despite any evidence to the contrary, and adopt this wholesale, voluntary, moratorium on game shooting as soon as possible. It is clear that this is the logical next step. We can kiss goodbye to the controversial muirburn policies, the tarring by association by unscrupulous game keepers and the accusations of raptor persecution. This would leave the rest of us in a much better place, those that simply shoot species such as deer, fox, rabbit, pigeon and crow for pest or species control without the fear of having the mud thrown at us for our legal, necessary activities, or the clay and target shooting communities whose activities take place in controlled and defined areas that do not affect SSSI's or any other sensitive area.

Whose with me?

Love it.

[clangerman]

18 minutes ago, mick miller said:

In all honesty I think the game shooting fraternity should be looking at a voluntary ban on the release and subsequent shooting of all game birds within the next five years. Despite the evidence that game meat is sustainable and the allied activities benefit many other species, the general public is largely against the wholesale release of thousands of reared, non-native birds into the environment every year simply to be shot for sport. We don't need them for food and chickens are much more cost effective to raise anyway.

Whereas pigeon, rabbit and crow shooting can still hold the moral high ground, providing a valuable and free service to the farming community and the country as a whole (think of the cost of publicly funded pest species control), the game shooting industries can make no such claims. The tide of public opinion is marching inexorably onwards toward this outcome and, despite best efforts, it is clear that game shooting has been painted into a corner od sustainability and credibility.

It is with this in mind that I propose that all organisations get behind my suggested capitulation, despite any evidence to the contrary, and adopt this wholesale, voluntary, moratorium on game shooting as soon as possible. It is clear that this is the logical next step. We can kiss goodbye to the controversial muirburn policies, the tarring by association by unscrupulous game keepers and the accusations of raptor persecution. This would leave the rest of us in a much better place, those that simply shoot species such as deer, fox, rabbit, pigeon and crow for pest or species control without the fear of having the mud thrown at us for our legal, necessary activities, or the clay and target shooting communities whose activities take place in controlled and defined areas that do not affect SSSI's or any other sensitive area.

Whose with me?

now now just because the shooting organisations tried to chuck pigeon shooters under the bus with the gl farce let’s not stoop to their level 

[wymberley]

On 25 February 2020 at 10:53, lancer425 said:

But they are from idaho. USA,  I posted the VIDEO to illustrate .410 were capable killers on steel. not discus semantics on the garb they chose to wear or the fact they stood talking holding on to some ducks.

This is just going around in circles. Good fun, but pointless. Unfortunately, just a few minutes ago I was advised of a far more pressing need  of my time so I'm out of here. Final word briefly is do you understand the implications of this action? On our behalf - and of course every right minded shooter knew this was coming eventually - those rsponsible have effectively removed any possibility of wriggle room in the distinctly possible - if not probable - event that deveopment has not proceeded at the pace we would have wished. On 24 February 2025 a conglomoration of every "anti" group is going to come down on us like we have yet to see if just one man fires a cartriudge having a lead load on that day. What were they thinking? What on earth was wrong with producing a programmed sequence of target events with an estmated dateline? Out.

[mick miller]

1 minute ago, clangerman said:

now now just because the shooting organisations tried to chuck pigeon shooters under the bus with the gl farce let’s not stoop to their level 

In the words of LTJ Bukem, it's a 'logical progression'.

[Dibble]

49 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

It has to be in prof or they could not sell you it, and i am guessing it had steel barrels.  Why is it worth less money now? If you are implying its that it can not use steel then, thats not the case.

Its worth less money until it can be proved a standard pressure 2 1/2" cartridge is as effective as lead. 

I do have a cheap Churchill with open chokes, greener xbolt and 29 thou walls which is possibly worth a fraction more.

[lancer425]

23 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, i was googling what NON HP steel cartridges are available to buy in uk for clay and game/pigeon but seems very few choices, 

Just buy duck loads  for now until they print game and pigeon on them latter. If you want to try steel and not sure what to buy. here is a few you should be able to get nearly everywhere. Gamebore super steel 32 gram, they work ok buy them in 4s or 5s for i am guessing pigeons.

 You can buy some super steels in 24gram &28 gram , skip the 24gram buy the 28 gram bit faster hit that bit harder my opinion. you can get these in 7s close into decoys they will work. for use on clays but still called super steel.

  other to look out far are Rcs NSI"gone now but might find a slab"  Saaga steel not tried any recent, but the mid 200s saggas were good killers / patternibng . i remember. Might be a eley steel that works ok but , i can not say, never used any. mostly reload but seen good reults with steel i acctualy love solway steel by hull. yet i would not thank you for their hullsteel lighter loads. its like any ammo suck it and see see what its patterning like try it in a fewc guns or / chokes see how it ends up.

[enfieldspares]

8 minutes ago, wymberley said:

This is just going around in circles. Good fun, but pointless. Unfortunately, just a few minutes ago I was advised of a far more pressing need  of my time so I'm out of here. Final word briefly is do you understand the implications of this action? On our behalf - and of course every right minded shooter knew this was coming eventually - those rsponsible have effectively removed any possibility of wriggle room in the distinctly possible - if not probable - event that deveopment has not proceeded at the pace we would have wished. On 24 February 2024 a conglomoration of every "anti" group is going to come down on us like we have yet to see if just one man fires a cartriudge having a lead load on that day. What were they thinking? What on earth was wrong with producing a programmed sequence of target events with an estmated dateline? Out.

This. And why when we have George Eustice as Environment Secretary who has already when at DEFRA said that he did not support a lead ban?

[andrewluke]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

From an outsiders perspective, putting a toxic heavy metal into the food chain is pretty difficult to defend.

Why dwell on the negatives … we should pull together and look for solutions.

when did you stop using lead?

[Smokersmith]

3 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Just buy duck loads  for now until they print game and pigeon on them latter. If you want to try steel and not sure what to buy. here is a few you should be able to get nearly everywhere. Gamebore super steel 32 gram, they work ok buy them in 4s or 5s for i am guessing pigeons.

 You can buy some super steels in 24gram &28 gram , skip the 24gram buy the 28 gram bit faster hit that bit harder my opinion. you can get these in 7s close into decoys they will work. for use on clays but still called super steel.

  other to look out far are Rcs NSI"gone now but might find a slab"  Saaga steel not tried any recent, but the mid 200s saggas were good killers / patternibng . i remember. Might be a eley steel that works ok but , i can not say, never used any. mostly reload but seen good reults with steel i acctualy love solway steel by hull. yet i would not thank you for their hullsteel lighter loads. its like any ammo suck it and see see what its patterning like try it in a fewc guns or / chokes see how it ends up.

For game shooters required to use fibre, this is not an option.

I think we need to understand that this market needs significant development over the next years … which I'm sure it will get.

1 minute ago, andrewluke said:

when did you stop using lead?

Read my previous posts.

[lancer425]

4 minutes ago, Dibble said:

Its worth less money until it can be proved a standard pressure 2 1/2" cartridge is as effective as lead. 

I do have a cheap Churchill with open chokes, greener xbolt and 29 thou walls which is possibly worth a fraction more.

It wont be because it has little choke constriction in it if that is what you are thinking. choke is all fine and dandy with normal steel. and thats official.

[mick miller]

Edited February 25, 2020 by mick miller

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

For game shooters required to use fibre, this is not an option.

I think we need to understand that this market needs significant development over the next years … which I'm sure it will get.

Read my previous posts.

I was sugesting those loads as of now, not the next game season.

"Gamebore super steel 32 gram, they work ok buy them in 4s or 5s for i am guessing pigeons."

We can only use what is there and it is not in law, we are at least showing willing at this stage which is all i think the organisation can reasonably expect at this very point in time.