oldypigeonpopper Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 17 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said: hello, thankyou i did see that on a uk clay forum, i have emailed Just Carts if they are going to stock these in future hello, had a reply from just carts, not going to stock the Armusa cartridges but did mention there should be other makes of steel cartridges game and clay coming on the market this year, what ever goes with non toxic cartridges its going to cost shooters a lot more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: Not getting hung up about the wads but not ignoring the facts, we all new one day lead would be banned and may be properly at a later date plastic but banning them both at the same time is creating extra problems. card cups are thick walled presumably to stop the steel touching the bore of the gun and damaging it so that means less volume for the ballistically inefficient steel shot. It is not creating any problem, Lead is not banned. Its a OK lets go call for steel. this is the alarm going off we not even got out of bed yet, never mind had breakfast and pulled on our waders. we will be fine stop fretting. there is way too much negativity fear /scaremongering and misinfo flying around here its actually quite comical. Your grandads BSA wint explode in your hands as soon as it sees steel nor will it mame Your mate chris stood next to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enfieldspares Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, White Rabbit said: I wouldn't trust Eley to roll me a fag nevermind load a steel cartridge. 30 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: I'll not be using the Eleys from a principle perspective as I think it's all a bit fishy. I agree with both the above. It all reminds me of the man who was goimng around in the 1980s promoting his anti-theft shotgun device. The one that fitred three steel prongs through the barrel walls if you tried to remove it without a key. He was on local television demanding, almost, that the Government change the law to make his product a mandatory security device if you owned shotguns. His motivation wasn't that of a greater good but that of "I got a product...now create me a market..." Edited February 25, 2020 by enfieldspares Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterHenry Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, wymberley said: If you were to publish that photograph on the front page of any UK newspaper as being indicative of the future of our sport, how long do you think we'd last? Answer in minutes, please. Edited February 25, 2020 by PeterHenry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Smokersmith said: This is where we interpret it differently …. I think they use the term NOW to explain why they're positioning the 5 year transition now, not change now. So nobody will bother then until the five years is up, just carry on with lead. hopefully David basc will confirm what their expectations are. 14 minutes ago, grahamch said: Having read this thread and writings on other forums it is clear that one of the main drivers for this is to try to protect a european wide market for the huge surplus of birds from big commercial shoots, the scale of which is becoming unacceptable and along with extreme pheasants will be our downfall. Would it be that bad if commercial shoots were limited in what they can release and reduce the game mountain that way? I for one find the ethics, morality and sustainability of large scale rearing and release of game birds for shooting more dubious the older l get. Maybe the time for reform has come? Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said: David basc will confirm what their expectations are. I think whatever peoples 'expectations' are, what will actually happens is that there will be a gradual transition, with the key driving factors being; Availability of suitable non lead cartridges Price differentials feedback from early adopters Increased cost and reduced availability of lead as time progresses this last may eventually be 'driven' by politics or even legislation if the above don't have the wanted effect in the form of restricting production of lead types, or forcing up the prices of lead types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 Conor O'Gorman, I would imagine that your FAQ post is representative of the views of all of the organisations involved in the current discussion. From your list, it certainly looks as though everything in the garden will be coming up roses. To give a balanced view, could you go again on behalf of the organisations and produce a list of the disadvantages that may well be inherent and any financial implications which may result from your action. Given both sides of the coin, members of all the group organisation can then assess the situation as opposed to the possibility of simply being force fed the one aspect. I only post in the knowledge that nothing in this world is either perfect or exactly as it would appear. Many thanks. 11 minutes ago, PeterHenry said: Thank you, Peter. Either I made my point badly or you missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokersmith Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 From an outsiders perspective, putting a toxic heavy metal into the food chain is pretty difficult to defend. Why dwell on the negatives … we should pull together and look for solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Me too. I also agree about 'getting older' and a number of my friends are feeling the same. I have to agree that the high pheasants 'game' I find particularly distasteful where blazing away with huge loads at live quarry at a distance where wounding is more likely than a clean kill seems to be the order of the day in the name of 'sport'. However - this has been done to death and beyond on another thread and so I'll say no more and nor will I 'rise' any further. I must agree with you here, the silly part of all this is its pure fiction the most part, and the rest fluke and freak. No attempt prior to taking these claimed 80+ yard shots to get an acceptable pattern, its so wrong. BUT back on subject we will perhaps be seeing TSS come into the equation. The clever money"wildfowlers" already know its well capable of longer ranges than steel bismuth or itm or imdeed lead. But use it inside typical practical shooting ranges, rather than trying to increase ranges significantly. This Shot gives the small bores or light loads a real chance at typical max range shots in the right hands. the light loads in like .410 make it more viable financialy too and no packing like in say a 12. The usa are seeing TSS loads more and more comercialy now. Perhaps we will see more here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 Just a thought ! BASC are sponsored by Eley . BASC provide shooting tuition at Game Fairs using Eley shotshells. Game Fairs are on Greenfield sites . Will BASC be using steel shot cartridges at these Fairs ? Will Eley be providing Eco wadded cartridges using steel shot in .410 , 28 bore and 20 bore at these Game Fairs ? If Eco wads can be produced for 12 bores in abundance , why not the smaller bores . Just thinking that all this seems to have been rushed through and very poorly thought through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 Although I agree with trying to phase out plastic wads I'm disappointed with the position taken by these organisations on lead. Rather than fight tooth and nail to make sure restrictions are based on facts, I agree that they have acted to try and protect the market fo the surplus of birds created by big commercial shoots. If they want to sell birds to the EU then these shoots should insist on non-toxic shot. Problem solved. On prices. Steel used in shot will have no impact on global steel prices. Prices of other non-toxic shot will not go down. The industry will not be able to access cheaper bismuth and tungsten because its being shot and that is where the majority of the price difference comes from. I moved back to bismuth from steel this year because the steel I had tried was performing so poorly, but it clearly works for others. I'd been hoping to swap my BLE for an English SLE one day. Sadly I won't be doing that now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 10 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Misinformation is rife on this issue from various keyboard warriors. Some FAQs are below to help bust the myths: FAQs B Why now? Recent technological developments have made non-lead shot more effective, more widely available and more affordable. Equally, biodegradable wads are now a possibility. These advances are continuing at pace and it is now time for the wider live quarry shooting community to join the wildfowlers, who have used non-lead alternatives successfully for the last twenty years. In addition, there are over-burdening legislative changes coming down the line as a result of work being undertaken by the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA). Despite Brexit, we are expecting that these regulations will be implemented in the UK either due to a requirement to sell lead free game into Europe, or by UK legislation. B What are the organisations calling for? Collectively, we are calling for a phased transition away from the use of lead shot in shotgun shooting for all live quarry. We are also calling for the end of single-use plastics in all shotgun ammunition. We feel that both goals are achievable within a five-year time frame, allowing suitable time for the industry to respond with new product development and ensure adequate supply. B Why is using lead shot a problem? Concerns around the use of lead shot limit the current market for game products, and retailers are increasingly asking for game that has been shot with non-lead alternatives. Additionally, lead has been progressively removed from other substances, such as petrol and paint. There is growing concern about the damage lead shot causes to wildlife away from wetlands. The fact that non-lead alternatives of suitable quality are increasingly available means that we should transition towards them. B What are the alternatives? Alternatives include steel, bismuth and tungsten-based shots. These are available in a variety of shot sizes and calibres. B So do the alternatives all behave the same way? No. Each metal behaves differently and those that shoot need to be aware of the differences. Simple patterning tests and practice on clays will help ensure that Guns identify which is best suited to their guns and their intended quarry. B I’ve heard that steel shot is ineffective. This is a rumour from the very early days of steel shot development. Field trials comparing lead and steel shot have found no differences in a number of measures, including lethality and effectiveness at practical shooting ranges [1]. [1] – An 11-year study at the Camargue, in France, found that: “After 11 years of hunting with non-toxic shot, there was unexpectedly no clear pattern in trends of individual effectiveness among hunters.” (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-014-0897-x) B Can I fire steel shot through my shotgun? Steel shot is classified as either standard or high performance. If your gun is nitro-proofed (i.e. it can fire modern lead loads) then it will be safe to fire standard performance steel. This is generally steel of size 4 or smaller. High performance steel must be marked as such on the box, and should only be fired through guns bearing the fleur-de-lys proofmark, and usually with the words “STEEL SHOT” stamped on the barrel. If you have any doubt about your gun, seek the advice of an expert gunsmith. B I have an old gun and am worried about possible barrel damage. Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots [1]. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns. Bismuth does cost more than both lead and steel but, ultimately, this is all about choices and securing the future of sustainable shooting. [1] – The Assessment of the Tolerance of Shotgun Chokes to Steel Shot – An Initial Study: Dr DF Allsop, Royal Military College of Science (1991). B I was told this will be the end of high bird shooting. Recent developments in soft steel shotgun cartridges should provide alternatives to lead suitable for all normal game-shooting ranges. Such ammunition is safe in the modern guns that are generally used for high bird shooting. B What about steel ricochets? All shot can ricochet. This is most likely to occur off rocks or other hard surfaces and, to a lesser extent, water and trees. There is evidence that steel ricochets slightly more than lead, but this is in a more predictable path [1]. The fact remains that an unsafe shot with lead is an unsafe shot with steel. [1] – Ricochet & Bounce Back Studies Using Steel & Lead Shot: Dr DF Allsop, Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, Cranfield University (2009). B Am I more likely to damage a tooth on steel shot? Caution should be taken when eating game, because any type of shot can damage teeth, including lead and bismuth. There is a chance of damage if you were to accidentally bite steel shot, but dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting shot since the transition. B Are American rules for shot ballistics different from the UK? They are. Gun and cartridge manufactures must test to agreed standards. The USA standard allows for higher and faster loads than Europe. B Is anything being done to change this? A CIP (the European organisation responsible for the safety testing of firearms and ammunition) working group, with UK representation, is studying the possibility of raising velocity and shot weight limits for steel to those set by SAAMI (the US equivalent to CIP), to increase performance. We are collectively lobbying to ensure priority for such changes. B Are new cartridges being developed? Yes. We anticipate that, as interest and demand for non-lead shot grows, further developments in cartridge manufacture will rapidly meet any remaining needs. We are working closely with manufacturers, and lobbying for technical development grants from the government, to ensure that these advances continue apace. B What about those of us who use large lead shot for controlling foxes? Advances in steel shot cartridges have resulted in viable lead shot alternatives for larger wildfowl such as geese. However, adult foxes may require greater shot pellet density for effective penetration, energy transfer and humane despatch. There are a number of excellent non-lead alternatives in use for coyote and fox shooting in the USA, said by many to work even better than lead. During the transition period, we will be working with cartridge manufacturers and importers to ensure these alternatives become available in the UK. B What should I be asking for at my local gun shop? If you have checked with a gunsmith, and are confident that your gun is suitable, we suggest using steel shot going forward. Ask for shot two sizes larger than you currently use in lead (e.g. size 4 steel if you currently use size 6 in lead) and insist on biodegradable wads. B Are there some countries in Europe that have stopped using lead shot? Yes. Denmark, the Netherlands and the Flemish region of Belgium. B How have these countries got on with the alternatives? They have not reported any problems with the effectiveness. Indeed, in many cases steel shot has been found to pattern more successfully than lead and to have superior levels of penetration. B I heard that Norway reversed its lead ban. This is true, but the situation Norway faced in 2014 is quite different from where we are now, in 2020. Their principal reason for reversing a lead ban was insufficient lethality in their available non-lead rifle ammunition. In addition, the use of shotguns in Norwegian woodland is very low compared with the UK. Furthermore, the quality of non-lead shotgun cartridges has increased significantly over the last six years and will only continue to do so during our transition period. We are not proposing any change to rifle ammunition. B What do you mean by a phased transition? The development of non-lead cartridges has been rapid and ongoing. However, there are still improvements to be made in availability and choice, especially for smaller-gauge guns. We are therefore phasing the transition over a five-year period to enable manufacturers to bring the products that are currently in development to market. B Are you asking people to stop using plastic cartridge cases? No. There is now a huge market for recycled plastic and we are encouraging guns to support manufacturers’ efforts to produce plastic cartridges from recycled, rather than new, plastic. We are calling for an end to non-biodegradable plastic wads in shotgun cartridges, which are not routinely or effectively collected during live quarry shooting. B What about ammunition for rifle target shooting, including with muzzle loading and historic arms, clay shooting and live quarry rifle shooting (including pest control and large game shooting)? Viable alternatives are being researched. Where lead ammunition is used in a contained environment, such as a range, or there is an absence of reasonable alternatives, we feel lead should continue to be used. What is available for 2 1/2" chambered British guns of age not suitable for steel/tungsten, that is at a price point within reach of the 'average' shooter? Please do not say bismuth, it's simply too expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, theshootist said: Although I agree with trying to phase out plastic wads I'm disappointed with the position taken by these organisations on lead. Rather than fight tooth and nail to make sure restrictions are based on facts, I agree that they have acted to try and protect the market fo the surplus of birds created by big commercial shoots. If they want to sell birds to the EU then these shoots should insist on non-toxic shot. Problem solved. On prices. Steel used in shot will have no impact on global steel prices. Prices of other non-toxic shot will not go down. The industry will not be able to access cheaper bismuth and tungsten because its being shot and that is where the majority of the price difference comes from. I moved back to bismuth from steel this year because the steel I had tried was performing so poorly, but it clearly works for others. I'd been hoping to swap my BLE for an English SLE one day. Sadly I won't be doing that now. Pressure is pressure , it has no idea if its a 8500PSI lead load going down its English steel barrel or a steel load. Choke makes not a blind bit of difference at this sort of pressure. Why not get the side lock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 I think we all know a ban on lead would happen one day and may be soon. what they should have done is a two stage approach, banned the use of lead over five years but continued allow the use of the current generation of steel shot wads for say 3years during the transition period such that by year 5 all lead and non biodegradable wads were banned. This would have allowed the cheaper steel cartridges to be continued to be used whilst the industry sorted out biodegradable wads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Penelope said: What is available for 2 1/2" chambered British guns of age not suitable for steel/tungsten, that is at a price point within reach of the 'average' shooter? Please do not say bismuth, it's simply too expensive. I think you will find - nothing at present, but it is also my burning question. I have heard that Hull tested 2 1/2" steel loads a while back, but didn't progress with it at the time. Don't know why, but guess lack of demand may have been a reason then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, Salopian said: Just a thought ! BASC are sponsored by Eley . BASC provide shooting tuition at Game Fairs using Eley shotshells. Game Fairs are on Greenfield sites . Will BASC be using steel shot cartridges at these Fairs ? Will Eley be providing Eco wadded cartridges using steel shot in .410 , 28 bore and 20 bore at these Game Fairs ? If Eco wads can be produced for 12 bores in abundance , why not the smaller bores . Just thinking that all this seems to have been rushed through and very poorly thought through. I'm going to get it in the neck here for looking at the past when the future is much more rosy and that's the direction in which we should be looking. However, I'll just ask, why not, we used to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshootist Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Pressure is pressure , it has no idea if its a 8500PSI lead load going down its English steel barrel or a steel load. Choke makes not a blind bit of difference at this sort of pressure. Why not get the side lock? I guess because its a very poor tool for throwing the volumes of steel necessary to kill effectively. Okay I could probably run to bismuth given the number of shells I use on 6-8 driven days that I do.. but not tungsten. Tungsten is £70 a kilo on clay and game! Enough for 30 cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: I think we all know a ban on lead would happen one day and may be soon. what they should have done is a two stage approach, banned the use of lead over five years but continued allow the use of the current generation of steel shot wads for say 3years during the transition period such that by year 5 all lead and non biodegradable wads were banned. This would have allowed the cheaper steel cartridges to be continued to be used whilst the industry sorted out biodegradable wads. Plaswads are not banned, the wads we have now we will still use. Wads will become available, and not necessarily bio style Moulded. We could be seeing card cupped steel commercially before much longer. Going on CGRs prices now as a guide is no indicator of the future pricing, or pricings from elsewhere. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Salopian said: If Eco wads can be produced for 12 bores in abundance , why not the smaller bores . The gamebore expensive cardboard cup wads may be able to be produced in abundance but the current only two biodegradable plastic wads are not as far as I know. One is being made by bioammo in-house for their own cartridges and the other again in Spain limited manufacturing capacity, so it will probably take time to gear up to make for the many different cartridge manufactures to be able to buy them, and that assumes they want to do so and sell them to anybody an exclusive deal may have been done with maxam the parent company of eley. Margins in cartridges has been very small this is a perfect way of increasing these margins. 5 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Plaswads are not banned, the wads we have now we will still use. Wads will become available, and not necessarily bio style Moulded. We could be seeing card cupped steel commercially before much longer. Going on CGRs prices now as a guide is no indicator of the future pricing, or pricings from elsewhere. . But the statement calls for the voluntary banning of one time plastic wads. So if you use steel shot in plaswads you are not complying with the voluntary ban, but I do agree I think it is better to use the steel shot in plaswads then not be able to use steel shot. The gamebore patent has expired for the cardboard cup wads but they may own the IP still. Edited February 25, 2020 by rbrowning2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 9 minutes ago, theshootist said: I guess because its a very poor tool for throwing the volumes of steel necessary to kill effectively. Okay I could probably run to bismuth given the number of shells I use on 6-8 driven days that I do.. but not tungsten. Tungsten is £70 a kilo on clay and game! Enough for 30 cartridges. If by a Sidelock you mean a 65mm or 70mm 12 ga. I can not understand why it would be a problem with steel. I have never reloaded and 65mm steel in 12ga. But they are the same under SAMI rules as the 3 inch magnums re pressure. And case volume is not as big an issue as you might think, as steel wads do not have any cush section or need cush as in felt etc. Do its powder straight to the wad so giving more room for shot and some closure on the case. I think you would certainly get a B&P 24 in / and a B&P28, with a bit of setback you might get 30 gram of 4s in steel in that case with a RTO or even a crimp. Not checked it if i am honest but put it this way , it will still be capable of typical game shooting as in walked upor even driven game at at sane ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 11 hours ago, bostonmick said: After the GP mess then we had the wj general license and now give up lead I believe we are still on the thin edge of what will be a very large wedge. It seems the new way to deal with challenges to our sport is to go along with what the anti brigade want. you are absolutely right already everyone is busy pretending the shooting organisations have done no wrong when owning firearms is banned and they will be the future generations will judge us cowards and rightly so all this has done is free the antis up to attack us on other fronts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibble Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 I am rather upset by the lack of democracy from BASC I don't believe any of them had this on their manifestos. I would be bloody furious if I'd spent £2000 on that pretty but thinnish walled SxS i looked at last month. I might go back though because it's now worth far less and it will make a nice gun for my daughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancer425 Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, clangerman said: you are absolutely right already everyone is busy pretending the shooting organisations have done no wrong when owning firearms is banned and they will be the future generations will judge us cowards and rightly so all this has done is free the antis up to attack us on other fronts Antis have not brought this about. Avery is smarting over the fact the shooting orgs made this move. Cowards can not be cowards as there is no fight, we had not a leg to stand on Lead is toxic, its that simple. Nobody wanted to see it go but it is explained why its going and now . and We use this time to change over. Really Why so down on Loosing lead, i am glad wildfowklers did not go into spasm like this when they stopped making ITM. Just move on. its just a shot type. nothing has gone away, just using a different shot. 4 minutes ago, Dibble said: I am rather upset by the lack of democracy from BASC I don't believe any of them had this on their manifestos. I would be bloody furious if I'd spent £2000 on that pretty but thinnish walled SxS i looked at last month. I might go back though because it's now worth far less and it will make a nice gun for my daughter. It has to be in prof or they could not sell you it, and i am guessing it had steel barrels. Why is it worth less money now? If you are implying its that it can not use steel then, thats not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dibble said: I would be bloody furious if I'd spent £2000 on that pretty but thinnish walled SxS i looked at last month. I'm not entirely sure what will happen about this sort of thing. I am in this situation having several old English guns. I am reasonably convinced that suitable cartridges in 2 1/2" will become available, however - whether they will be 'effective' - of that I'm waiting (and looking forward) to something to convince me. As for my one Damascus barrelled gun, that may have to be retired as an 'active' shooter. We will see what the advice on that is when 2 1/2" ammunition becomes available. I doubt that 'wall thickness' itself will be an issue as pressure is the same I believe. It may be that there is greater risk of bulging at the choke (where there is significant choke in the barrel) due to the lower 'crushability' of the shot. I don't know and it would be wrong to speculate, so I will await advice as and when loads become available. Edited February 25, 2020 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted February 25, 2020 Report Share Posted February 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, lancer425 said: Antis have not brought this about. Avery is smarting over the fact the shooting orgs made this move. Cowards can not be cowards as there is no fight, we had not a leg to stand on Lead is toxic, its that simple. Nobody wanted to see it go but it is explained why its going and now . and We use this time to change over. Really Why so down on Loosing lead, i am glad wildfowklers did not go into spasm like this when they stopped making ITM. Just move on. its just a shot type. nothing has gone away, just using a different shot. i shoot pigeons at lest three days a week i pay the extra for lead because it saves mashing birds close in and instead of picking seven or eight who make it to nearby trees using steel i pick one or two this will cause unnecessary suffering in the field to say nothing of giving the opposition what it wanted yet again shooting will be banned and it will be our own fault for bending over non stop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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