Lead ban & BASC

[old'un]

28 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I do not know.   But Wildfowlers need to go with what we have available right now. You know they will shut us down if they can.

  Only one option these card/ fibre cups, Not ideal i know but i do not see another option. I heard that do not like big shot BBB but he felt better with smaller shot. But just to complicate things lad was using a mossberg 835. Which i am sure you know is a 12 with a ten barrel, so this could have worked for these wads or against them , verdict is out on that he never bought any more.

One Idea i thought about was a hybrid wad sleeve on top of a op or card seal nittro card and then a silicone "Hybrid Synthetic Rubber X  synthetic plastic" tube wad slit 7/8ths down on the nitro.

Not sure on the plastics involved or if other options of this thin hose exist yet, but supper tough and if more rubbery options out there just not sure.

Again the wrapper idea, Could there be a fabric?  Just do not know right now. sure it will come good just a case of sorting something out. I just bought an old fabarb 3 inch auto yesterday hard chrome barrels i am prepared to wreck if need be to see if i can get these card cups working without scratching barrels.

Kevlar

[lancer425]

9 minutes ago, old'un said:

Kevlar

Yes Ideas in action. I am on it. Right now Bye .

First two things it threw up not read anything or looked into it yet.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/122904177307?chn=ps&var=423357218407&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=423357218407_122904177307&targetid=878706529565&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006772&campaignid=9441050760&mkgroupid=95284779785&rlsatarget=pla-878706529565&abcId=1139126&merchantid=115709099&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImfGJleD25wIVQrDtCh10pwCLEAQYAyABEgKp7vD_BwE

https://www.merlincycles.com/panaracer-flataway-puncture-protection-26-700c-29-49838.html?utm_source=PHG&utm_medium=AffiliateMarketing&utm_campaign=phg-GB&ucpo=490&source=PHG

 

https://dragonplate.com/braided-kevlar-tubes

Edited February 29, 2020 by lancer425

[lancer425]

21 minutes ago, old'un said:

Kevlar

I do not know oldun, i not up on such materials, May be some others here have a better understanding of the nature of such materials.

[islandgun]

http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/New!_American_Shot.html

I have had some of the above for a few years,  load as lead, and yes i have shot a few ducks with it. but tend to load steel , i think its in a uk 2 but not sure about smaller sizes, a friend brought it over from America

Edited February 29, 2020 by islandgun

[old'un]

15 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I do not know oldun, i not up on such materials, May be some others here have a better understanding of the nature of such materials.

It was a bit tongue in cheek, its used in the car/aero industry, also to make bullet proof vests but I don’t think its degradable.

[lancer425]

Just now, old'un said:

It was a bit tongue in cheek, its used in the car/aero industry, also to make bullet proof vests but I don’t think its degradable.

Yep fibres are essentialy non degradable and still there at 196 degree celcious, so no go. Got exited there for a moment.

Card cups only show in town.  But tomorrow is another day and patience a virtue.

[JohnfromUK]

50 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

There genuinely is a world out there without lead , and that’s true for the small bores too. I am more concerned about plaswads than i ever am about non tox shot.

My current understanding for the sort of load I think I need is 'thought through' like this;

I currently use either 26 or 28g of No 6 lead from a 2 1/2" cartridge with fibre wads.  I am happy it suits what I do.

The drivers for me are:

1. Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered)
2. Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade).
3. Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter).  Some range reduction can be tolerated

I think what I will need is something like:

• 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy)
• Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel
• A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve)

My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them.  I don't believe any commercial load is yet available.  These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures.  They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that.

What I don't know is;

1. whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there)
2. What the concerns over steel for forestry will be
3. What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be

I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above.  I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens.

[enfieldspares]

4 hours ago, mick miller said:

Tell me how a 100gr 243 copper monolithic will stabilise in any factory 1 in 10 twist? It won't, looks like you're the one who is clueless. 

That's the 243 no longer deer legal for large species in Scotland.

Correct. And FWIW the American makers where there is no 100 grain weight limit as in Scotland don't make AFAIR a non-lead 100 grain .243" Winchester (or 6mm Remington) factory cartridge of bullet. But only 90 grain and/or 75 grain.

[johnnytheboy]

13 hours ago, motty said:

Pretty much ANY shooting man can afford a steel proofed gun. If he can't, then that probably means he is struggling to put food on the table. Anyway, as I have said countless times before, a steel proofed gun is not necessarily required to use steel cartridges.

Maybe from your view point mate but I’ve had to give folk alone of cartridges for a days shooting they were that skint! Not everyone is well off 

[old'un]

23 minutes ago, islandgun said:

http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/New!_American_Shot.html

I have had some of the above for a few years,  load as lead, and yes i have shot a few ducks with it. but tend to load steel , i think its in a uk 2 but not sure about smaller sizes, a friend brought it over from America

Think these people stock Hevi-Shot or ITM, plus suitable wads for steel shot…https://www.claygame.co.uk/non-toxic-shot-p3

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

My current understanding for the sort of load I think I need is 'thought through' like this;

I currently use either 26 or 28g of No 6 lead from a 2 1/2" cartridge with fibre wads.  I am happy it suits what I do.

The drivers for me are:

1. Must be 2 1/2" compatible (because that is how the guns are chambered)
2. Must be fibre wad (because that is mandated by the landlords who have sheep and cattle and I doubt will be prepared to wait for bio degradeable plastic to degrade).
3. Should be ideally similar in both recoil and striking energy/range to current loads with my less than 1/2 choke guns (mostly improved and quarter).  Some range reduction can be tolerated

I think what I will need is something like:

• 28 or 30g of No 4 steel (because No 4 seems to be both suitable with fibre/card wads and have adequate striking energy)
• Fibre/card type 'enclosing' wad to protect the barrel
• A little 'common sense' in using at ranges at which it proves capable (this may need a bit of a learning curve)

My current understanding is that there are fibre/card wads (don't ask where from, because I don't know, but I have heard that to be the case) that exist to meet this requirement and they are OK with shot sizes 4 and smaller, but larger shot can punch through them.  I don't believe any commercial load is yet available.  These can be loaded in 2 1/2" cases and within current proof pressures.  They are generally thought to be a little more restricted in range, but given some good old common sense, I can live with that.

What I don't know is;

1. whether such a load will be made available commercially (but suspect it will because the demand will be there)
2. What the concerns over steel for forestry will be
3. What the concerns over ricochets for shooting in woods will be

I am prepared to await developments - some of which I hope will run along the lines above.  I will check any proposed new type with a suitable 'authority' as in a gunmaker or reliable published article, then subject to that being OK I will then try some (patterns, field use etc.) and see what happens.

I am sure you could come up with something that matches your needs. 15/16ths oz 4 steel in a card/ fibre cup wad , probably try getting some csb5 loads tested , i think there was some csb5 data flying about on here a year or so ago. Try and find that or ask, some body will have something. Use that as your starting point.  I think i would just reload. Get yourself a nice progressive if your loading thousands a year.  If you just use a few hundred just anything you have now or can find cheap.

 

[clangerman]

21 minutes ago, johnnytheboy said:

Maybe from your view point mate but I’ve had to give folk alone of cartridges for a days shooting they were that skint! Not everyone is well off 

point that out to the guilty when they come out of hiding mate i’m certainly going to paying to look like a yank buying the titanic is not funny we look proper mugs now 

[islandgun]

25 minutes ago, old'un said:

Think these people stock Hevi-Shot or ITM, plus suitable wads for steel shot…https://www.claygame.co.uk/non-toxic-shot-p3

This is the thing,  E shot is heavier than lead and i loaded it with fibre wads,  then used it through 3/4 choke in my old T Wild.. My point is that there are alternatives out there and i guess there will be more. The E shot was cheap but then, everything is cheaper over there

[matone]

27 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I am sure you could come up with something that matches your needs. 15/16ths oz 4 steel in a card/ fibre cup wad , probably try getting some csb5 loads tested , i think there was some csb5 data flying about on here a year or so ago. Try and find that or ask, some body will have something. Use that as your starting point.  I think i would just reload. Get yourself a nice progressive if your loading thousands a year.  If you just use a few hundred just anything you have now or can find cheap.

 

That`s the sort of load that I would be looking for! What steel shot size would be best as a game cartridge ?

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, islandgun said:

This is the thing,  E shot is heavier than lead and i loaded it with fibre wads,  then used it through 3/4 choke in my old T Wild.. My point is that there are alternatives out there and i guess there will be more. The E shot was cheap but then, everything is cheaper over there

Well that’s another option, i never knew existed.

[lancer425]

Just now, matone said:

That`s the sort of load that I would be looking for! What steel shot size would be best as a game cartridge ?

Sort of all round...  4s maybe 3s like where you needed 5s before. I personally think 4s.

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Sort of all round...  4s maybe 3s like where you needed 5s before. I personally think 4s.

I had 4 in mind.

 

41 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I think i would just reload.

I'm hoping for an off the shelf complete cartridge.  I don't reload at all at present and so would have to invest in the kit, and do some learning (I have various friends/contacts who do reload, so not a big issue).  I will await a commercial cartridge - and only start looking into reloads if that doesn't materialise.  I will very probably continue with lead for clays (that still apparently allowed) - and my non clay usage is quite low, maybe 200 - 300 a year, so the kit would take a while to pay off ......... but basically I'm lazy!

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Sort of all round...  4s maybe 3s like where you needed 5s before. I personally think 4s.

If you want to have a go with steel, you could do worse than look at this. It was previously pinned elsewhere but a while back was a casualty of PhotoBucket's penny pinching. The best way to use it, is to refer to the shot size/range column/box which you use as your maximum range for your lead size and cross refer to the same figure (as a maximum range) for steel. This is simply because the table represents a worse case scenario. The threshold energy (feathers) and a degree of boundary layer have been taken into account. However, as we are comparing like with like in that respect using the comparison works. As we're talking shotgun, as ever, all figures can be is nothing else but a guide.

[rbrowning2]

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

This is the thing,  E shot is heavier than lead and i loaded it with fibre wads,  then used it through 3/4 choke in my old T Wild.. My point is that there are alternatives out there and i guess there will be more. The E shot was cheap but then, everything is cheaper over there

Let’s hope Trump gives us a good trade deal then their may not be such a big difference in price between them and us.

their is all so nice shot available in the USA it can be used like lead.

but currently the above are very expensive by the time they reach uk shops.

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

38 minutes ago, wymberley said:

If you want to have a go with steel, you could do worse than look at this.

Thank you for that.  It tends to stack up well with what I had been told elsewhere - namely - start with No 4 in steel.

[MrPhantom]

Not watched it yet but interview with BASC on YouTube 

 

[6.5x55SE]

2 hours ago, islandgun said:

This is the thing,  E shot is heavier than lead and i loaded it with fibre wads,  then used it through 3/4 choke in my old T Wild.. My point is that there are alternatives out there and i guess there will be more. The E shot was cheap but then, everything is cheaper over there

I'm fairly sure E-Shot is no longer available as it never really took off. It was sold from BuckRun USA where you can obtain HW13

[wymberley]

11 minutes ago, MrPhantom said:

Not watched it yet but interview with BASC on YouTube 

 

I'm having trouble paying any attention to someone who thinks that patterning a shotgun relates to a couple of scraps of cardboard and a barbed wire fence and unbelievably earns an income from it.

[islandgun]

4 minutes ago, 6.5x55SE said:

I'm fairly sure E-Shot is no longer available as it never really took off. It was sold from BuckRun USA where you can obtain HW13

You could well be right,  I did shoot a few ducks but missed more ..😊 thought it was gun fit..still got about 700g of it !  nice idea though.

[MrPhantom]

13 minutes ago, wymberley said:

I'm having trouble paying any attention to someone who thinks that patterning a shotgun relates to a couple of scraps of cardboard and a barbed wire fence and unbelievably earns an income from it.

😂 😂 I enjoy Johnny’s videos! Always entertaining and mostly in words I can understand.