Lead ban & BASC

[clangerman]

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

No they would not . They issued the details of this voluntary NOTE! "VOLUNTARY" ban on lead in live quarry. , there was something amiss with the orgs and the cartridge firms.

Not sure what exactly and not bothered anyway.

Meanwhile back at the ranch Tonto has two practical options how i see it.  !. DO nothing Ignore all this completely. or 2.  for the moment try and comply as much as they can.   Now as it is right here and now we got silver steel "MAYBE" or these eley bio wad loads. "I THINK".  SO nothing is certain yet. so Use up your lead, and try a few boxes of steel with these plaswads because at least the birds shipped into dealers will be full of steel not lead.   This way you are at least hitting thwe main issue and the only thing you can do anyway at the moment.

If we get a big enough move from Lead"I ndoubt this" we might be able to push the cartridge firms into making inroads into newer wad tech, that can give this a chance of working.

Wads are the key to all this. coupled slightly with the restrictive CIP rules.

The cartridge firms statement friday was just snivelling and greedy.

The cip rules they have a point, but they have no option but to develop wads, The sticky greedy little palm thrust out for Money to invest in wads is just typical of the UK cartridge firms as a whole.

 Do you know what?  I do not think this problem will be solved by any uk cartridge company not even the mighty eley with its maxan / uee/ rio conection. it will come from either the states or B&P / RC ? Nobel sport or one of the big Scandinavian wad firms " No idea what they call them now ex helarco vargner etc. " . And my money is on the latter. OR good old Winchester. YOMV.

As it is now all you can do at the mo is either carry on, or Reload. for 65mms. No other option. It is like vif you reload you either go card cups or just go say B&P 24 to load 7/8 or 15/16 oz loads. At least that way your bitds are useable in the game dealers.

They got to get some wads sorted out its that simple.

i couldn’t care less about using steel THIS is about incompetence someone has lied failing to do what they are paid for represent shooters not their selfs and going from one mess to another you could not find worse people to run something if you tried 

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, grahamch said:

Seems a bit of a pre-occupation with 2.5 inch guns. 

Surely there cant be huge numbers still used?

I think there are quite a number - all the major cartridge makers currently offer suitable ammunition (and it is similarly priced to 2 3/4, so the 'volume' will be there), so I guess the demand is there.  Not much used for clays, and not used (as far as I know) for 'high bird specials', but used by many many on 'normal days' game shoots including in 2 3/4" guns (such as the vast majority of AyAs).

Edited March 1, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[silver fox 1]

 The Problem  i  have is everywhere I shoot  has to be  fibre wads,  I would love to use steel as I can  sell the pigeons I shoot for more money,  i’ve had eight  driven days this year  again with fibre wad  cartridges,  so at the moment I’m snookered  unless we are able to  change to plastic wad,  I know this is a voluntary ban  so can carry on shooting lead for now,  i’m concerned  about the bio wad  situation it took a Spanish company   8 million and   Nine years to produce  The ones that eley have, and   Of course  these  Will be protected so nobody else can use them,  which means the cartridge companies will have to start from scratch  The question is can this be done in five years 

[Old farrier]

4 minutes ago, silver fox 1 said:

 The Problem  i  have is everywhere I shoot  has to be  fibre wads,  I would love to use steel as I can  sell the pigeons I shoot for more money,  i’ve had eight  driven days this year  again with fibre wad  cartridges,  so at the moment I’m snookered  unless we are able to  change to plastic wad,  I know this is a voluntary ban  so can carry on shooting lead for now,  i’m concerned  about the bio wad  situation it took a Spanish company   8 million and   Nine years to produce  The ones that eley have, and   Of course  these  Will be protected so nobody else can use them,  which means the cartridge companies will have to start from scratch  The question is can this be done in five years 

Or by this season unless you’re going to shoot game with a 3 inch chambered gun 

[ClemFandango]

16 hours ago, mick miller said:

I'll keep it there thanks, as a reminder of how we've all been sold down the river in a doomed attempt to defend the indefensible. 

But I've said all I want to say on this decision, I think my views are clear enough. 

Yeah but they are all based on 10 year out of date information and bull****. 

[JohnfromUK]

19 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or by this season unless you’re going to shoot game with a 3 inch chambered gun 

??  Why by this season?  As I understand it - it is 'as now' for the next 5 years, though hoping people transition to non lead and plastic - and after that - voluntary.

I am (as I have said many times in this thread) prepared to give suitable alternatives a go as and when they become available and will switch to them IF they prove satisfactory.  However I have no intention of going out and getting a 3" chambered gun for next season as I understand that 2 1/2" lead/fibre cartridges will remain in production and remain not only 'legal', but not contradicting any 'voluntary' ban.

For me to change to non lead, non plastic will not mean changing to a 3" gun under any scenario I can currently envisage.

[figgy]

Lancer425,

I load my own and also shoot shop bought steel. I find and always have that steel carts of the same weight kick more than the lead equivalent. Whether you find different is your findings.

My findings will remain as I've already stated, they kick more and also sound louder. I've give some to mates and they all thought they kicked more. Two of them to the point of standing out of the duck drive rather than shoot steel due the felt recoil.

The person who called Mudpatten and Johnny the gunsmith dangerous idiots would they care to expand on why they're dangerous idiots also what they done that was dangerous ?

Shooting steel without a plastic wad isn't dangerous, just may cause scoring of your barrel.

[lancer425]

55 minutes ago, clangerman said:

i couldn’t care less about using steel THIS is about incompetence someone has lied failing to do what they are paid for represent shooters not their selfs and going from one mess to another you could not find worse people to run something if you tried 

What you are saying is that BASC and all those other orgs got together , one morning, and decided "i know why dont we ban lead shot, , we will upset a great many of our members if we do that"   " YAY"  " yes lets do that, oh and i have a good one lets not consult them that will upset some of them even MORE"   Doubly "YAY".   HO HO Ho " I can beat that"  "go on then",. "we can not mention any of this to the uk cartridge firms that will upset not only more members but the cartridge companies too" .

 OH! Go to the top of the class that man . " now we can look at loosing our jobs in an all too meagre jobs market in a struggling post brexit uk , jobs climate.  " YAY great idea lets go for that one".     Go on tell me i have led a sheltered life if you want, but i do not think that is quite what happened do you. ? Answers on a post card.

   I think even this  a more realistic version goes something like this. The orgs release the statement jointly .

 Cartridge firms see it and did not have a clue how to respond, It they had NO communication as they claim they would not have waited days to respond would you. ?

I think this is a more likely scenario. ELEY full of the joys of spring about their BIO wad Johny and nick horten testing it out etc. Were puffing their feathers out at a meeting where vthe orgs were some time ago. and cedric from eley. got a bit carried away with the after dinner mints, this coupled with the pastry on the old buffet table was giving him jip big style.

One or more of the orgs questioned Cedric " hey Cedric my old budy my old chum"  " you can deliver on this old chap "?   Cedric Put on the spot his recent oratory boasts, his acid indigestion the Lure of Donna from accounts alluring bust line coupled with the fact she is waving a full bottle of gaviscon at him how could  Cedric resist.  his Short reply " OH yes of course we can". seals the deal the orgs are on. 

 Brush up on a few of the old finer points looks good to me lets go "cunning plan under way" Steal the march on WJ in our own time. prompt change and a nice smooth transition.

 NOW we get the cartridge companies response, first they look at what happened. express ring bontoft ave why nobody to sure.  Well what are we going to do.  "as anybody actually emailed this to the orgs. " "NO"   "NO"?. Thats it lets go with that we did not know.  we got no money no steel shot in the world and no wads.  "Blame cip"   "that’s a good one" No one need ever know.  Cedric feeling a bit guilty and suffering from indigestion because Donna from accounts can not cook to save her pretty little life as Cedric discovering since he moved in. after leaving his wife and the 2.4 god bless his little heart burn.   " Cedric says " but what about the orgs"  "hard lines for them boys and girld no emails keep quiet let them sort that out" .

So its all about Acid Indigestion gaviscon Donna from  Accounts and my incessant verbal diarrhoea trying to tame this ORG bashing fever that is so prevalent here its simply not funny. . Nonsense of course its utter tw3oddle but more believable than the orgs wanting their own way to ruin our sport.

 

[lancer425]

41 minutes ago, silver fox 1 said:

 The Problem  i  have is everywhere I shoot  has to be  fibre wads,  I would love to use steel as I can  sell the pigeons I shoot for more money,  i’ve had eight  driven days this year  again with fibre wad  cartridges,  so at the moment I’m snookered  unless we are able to  change to plastic wad,  I know this is a voluntary ban  so can carry on shooting lead for now,  i’m concerned  about the bio wad  situation it took a Spanish company   8 million and   Nine years to produce  The ones that eley have, and   Of course  these  Will be protected so nobody else can use them,  which means the cartridge companies will have to start from scratch  The question is can this be done in five years 

The fibre wass available from claygame armourer and others are gamebore as far as i know, i think some fibre wad steel will be offered by them at some point. probably before this season. Or reload.  Thing is if they are not there but you would use if they ever became available puts you full square behind the voluntary ban anyway.  if its not there you can not use it. Early days yet.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Early days yet.

So much this /\

It has been one week; we have 260 weeks until a 'voluntary' ban starts.  I and many others on this thread have indicated that we will evaluate alternatives as and when the become available.  I believe firmly that the will become available, but how effective they will be - and how expensive remains to be seen.  I do have reservations about effectiveness, but suspect that they will be adequate for me - even if I have to be a little more conservative in 'stretching my barrels'. 

In many ways - that would be no bad thing and should instil a better sense of sportsmanship in being more restrained where a clean kill becomes doubtful.  I have always thought that was a good attitude to take anyway.

[old'un]

14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The fibre wass available from claygame armourer and others are gamebore as far as i know, i think some fibre wad steel will be offered by them at some point. probably before this season. Or reload.  Thing is if they are not there but you would use if they ever became available puts you full square behind the voluntary ban anyway.  if its not there you can not use it. Early days yet.

Are they a fibre cup or wad using steel?

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, old'un said:

Are they a fibre cup or wad using steel?

Yes silver steel i believe.

[old'un]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Yes silver steel i believe.

Are they a fibre cup or wad using steel?

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, old'un said:

Are they a fibre cup or wad using steel?

yes . video here oldun.

 

[Salopian]

I  do feel that this issue may be being influenced by the Big Commercial shoots need to continue to supply days of mass slaughter , pricked birds and then disposal  by fair means or foul . 

Because of the overheads now being absorbed by commercial shooting they NEED to have big days to make it pay .

Despite the many claims of shooting Pheasants at distances of upto 80 yards I note that none of the organisations have expressed any concerns about this stupid practice OR shown evidence of the sparce patterns at these sort of distances .

Remember not long ago we faced bad Press about Pheasants being  buried and also incinerated . This MUST stop.

We really do need to get our house and sport in order .

Bring back the social occasion , shoot enough to be consumed by participants , friends and family , enjoy the days , pick up your litter , don't litter in the first place , and kick this political nonsense into a distant memory . Lead is for shot , Steel is for Barrels and Car production .

•  

[old'un]

14 minutes ago, Salopian said:

I  do feel that this issue may be being influenced by the Big Commercial shoots need to continue to supply days of mass slaughter , pricked birds and then disposal  by fair means or foul . 

Because of the overheads now being absorbed by commercial shooting they NEED to have big days to make it pay .

Despite the many claims of shooting Pheasants at distances of upto 80 yards I note that none of the organisations have expressed any concerns about this stupid practice OR shown evidence of the sparce patterns at these sort of distances .

Remember not long ago we faced bad Press about Pheasants being  buried and also incinerated . This MUST stop.

We really do need to get our house and sport in order .

Bring back the social occasion , shoot enough to be consumed by participants , friends and family , enjoy the days , pick up your litter , don't litter in the first place , and kick this political nonsense into a distant memory . Lead is for shot , Steel is for Barrels and Car production .

•  

And looking at the above video using 3inch 32g 4s and the pattern at 55 yards, they wont be killing many pheasants at 60 yards, maybe plenty of pricked birds.

[Old farrier]

21 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

??  Why by this season?  As I understand it - it is 'as now' for the next 5 years, though hoping people transition to non lead and plastic - and after that - voluntary.

I am (as I have said many times in this thread) prepared to give suitable alternatives a go as and when they become available and will switch to them IF they prove satisfactory.  However I have no intention of going out and getting a 3" chambered gun for next season as I understand that 2 1/2" lead/fibre cartridges will remain in production and remain not only 'legal', but not contradicting any 'voluntary' ban.

For me to change to non lead, non plastic will not mean changing to a 3" gun under any scenario I can currently envisage.

If the shoot you’re attending for your driven day sells the game to a dealer will he want 1/2 shot with lead and half shot with non toxic ?

do you think game dealers will wait 5 years to buy game to put into the food chain 
there’s a few hidden agendas here and no one is telling us the truth at the moment 

the only fibre wad shot cup I can buy at the moment is in a 3 inch case 

[Salopian]

Plenty of reading for those interested  Google Lead Ammunition Group  interestingly The Field had an article about it dated April 1st 2010🤣🤣🤣 .

  In a letter dated 12 July 2016 to John Swift, the Chair of the Lead Ammunition Group, Liz Truss MP said their report “did not show that the impacts of lead ammunition were significant enough to justify changing current policy.”

There will therefore be no ban on lead ammunition.

BASC have welcomed the government’s decision in the middle of the association’s campaign against a global lead shot ban.

BASC chairman Peter Glenser said: “The government has engaged in a lengthy, evidence-based analysis of the use of lead ammunition and has found there is no reason to change the law.

“Risks are there to be managed and it is quite clear from current evidence that by following FSA advice and trimming meat of shot-affected areas, the risk can be eliminated.

“Unfortunately, the lead ammunition debate has been hijacked by campaigners who are looking to damage shooting as a whole. This puts them back in their box.”

 

Amazing how the Hymn sheet can be reworded 4 years later !

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Old farrier said:

If the shoot you’re attending for your driven day sells the game to a dealer will he want 1/2 shot with lead and half shot with non toxic ?

OK - we don't shoot enough to use a dealer.  I think more fibre wads/cups will inevitability become available - and I had heard that 2 3/4" was 'possible', but that 2 1/2" was more difficult, but so far - that is hearsay only.

 

[old'un]

9 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

If the shoot you’re attending for your driven day sells the game to a dealer will he want 1/2 shot with lead and half shot with non toxic ?

do you think game dealers will wait 5 years to buy game to put into the food chain 
there’s a few hidden agendas here and no one is telling us the truth at the moment 

the only fibre wad shot cup I can buy at the moment is in a 3 inch case 

Having looked at the video using 3inch 32g 4s and the resulting pattern at 55 yards I would love to see the results (if they made some) at 50 yards using an 2 1/2 inch cartridge, with a suitable load for such chambered guns, don’t think the pattern at 40 yards will look to good.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, old'un said:

Having looked at the video using 3inch 32g 4s and the resulting pattern at 55 yards I would love to see the results (if they made some) at 50 yards using an 2 1/2 inch cartridge, with a suitable load for such chambered guns, don’t think the pattern at 40 yards will look to good.

If I can get the fibre wads and shotcups I will load with the heavi shot or tss and get I hope a better pattern than that 

[old'un]

20 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

If I can get the fibre wads and shotcups I will load with the heavi shot or tss and get I hope a better pattern than that 

I would just carry on using lead until you are forced by law to use non-toxic shot, sod them.

Edited March 1, 2020 by old'un

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

Yes silver steel i believe.

 

1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

yes . video here oldun.

 

 Just Cartridges £441/1000 not viable for me i'm afraid 

[silver fox 1]

Kind of getting a bad feeling about all this especially now as shooting organisations have admitted  lead is toxic,  I think we have left our selves wide open, looks like we are struggling with this one ( wild justice in for the kill )

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

 

 Just Cartridges £441/1000 not viable for me i'm afraid 

They are not viable to very many at all at that price, they are a token jesture from gamebore to simply say they have an option.

Commercially they have no need to move on this, Lead will still remain their main product, because everybody will go on buying it. And no law against that whatsoever.

They could make them much cheaper than that if they wanted.

If they are too expensive, why not try just using Cheaper steel ammo. say a 32 gram 4 gamebore supper steel or saaga Rio whatever you can get localy. If everybody moves as per the orgs recommendation the cartridge firms have to get loads out there competitive or fold.

Keep buying lead they will keep selling it you.

7 minutes ago, silver fox 1 said:

Kind of getting a bad feeling about all this especially now as shooting organisations have admitted  lead is toxic,  I think we have left our selves wide open, looks like we are struggling with this one ( wild justice in for the kill )

The world is not silly, everybody knows lead is toxic. BASC fought its corner as best it could its now time for change this was all about kick starting this change. giving us a smooth transition, this will be brought about by stopping buying lead. NOW> STOP then they got just the clay market, they got to go with something then to meet the requirements.