Lead ban & BASC

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Link: https://markavery.info/2020/02/24/news-shooting-organisations-bow-to-the-inevitable-on-lead/

Thanks, and no sunrise  from that quarter .

[bostonmick]

I look forward to the day of the announcement that the body against sports of country (basc) have a new honorary president in one Mr c. Packham. 

[PeterHenry]

6 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Not seen it have we stolen his march by any chance. 😀

I think we may have

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, Petay said:

Was at AGL a couple of weeks ago and wasn't until my eyes zoned in that I realised that what I thought was gravel around the stands and pathways was actually shot, imagine tons of it. Interesting to see how it could be cleaned up.

The bans been coming for years and although it may be starting with live quarry shooting it will spread to Clay's and other target rifle disciplines. I imagine rimmy shooters and air rifle shooters will have it worse in someways as rifled barrels are already picky with ammo and generally non lead alternatives don't group consistently as well as lacking punch down range. 

Plastic bans I'm all for so maybe this will increase development of eco wads further and bring the price down. 

Perhaps not communicated well by BASC but I suspect they know they need to pick their battles and this is probably one that's just not worth having - they'd loose the plastic argument in a heartbeat and their is no debating lead is toxic so would not take much to turn opinion against it.

 

Lead recaimed shot i have used it on pigeons, it is ok, and could be reused for the clay clubs too. perhaps bigger ones produce ammo" return to factory"  with the shot they reclaim / reuse it back on that very site.

Lets hope bio wads do get mainstream and lower in cost. i am sure B&P And others are on this wile we speak here. do not think it will be that long a wait until they start to show up from more than eley.

[Penelope]

3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

So do all the hushpowers work with steel? Can we use steel in forests? 
will the clay ground let you shooters use steel? 
will the home office regulations for shot fall out at clay grounds  remain the same or will it close many of them? 
will the cpsa change it’s rules to allow the shooting of steel in competition? 
just a few questions I shall be asking if I receive anything from Basc today 

may

I'll give you £3.50 for that useless old Purdy you have.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Link: https://markavery.info/2020/02/24/news-shooting-organisations-bow-to-the-inevitable-on-lead/

So if we happily comply with this voluntary ban on using lead shot for live quarry, then we can continue to shoot live quarry with non lead cartridges and can continue to shoot lead cartridges at clay pigeon shoots?

[Old farrier]

2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I'll give you £3.50 for that useless old Purdy you have.

It’s not as useless as you think 2.3/4 inch chambers 

[lancer425]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So if we happily comply with this voluntary ban on using lead shot for live quarry, then we can continue to shoot live quarry with non lead cartridges and can continue to shoot lead cartridges at clay pigeon shoots?

That is what it adds up too.AFAICT

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

So if we happily comply with this voluntary ban on using lead shot for live quarry, then we can continue to shoot live quarry with non lead cartridges and can continue to shoot lead cartridges at clay pigeon shoots?

That’s about it 🙄

most most clay grounds don’t want steel on safety grounds 

but it’s safe elsewhere 🤔

[browning123]

21 hours ago, steve_b_wales said:

If lead is banned, then I've got a few 1000 to offload before the ban is finalised. It will be like the Somme up on my permission.

Likewise Steve 😩

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Will the voluntary ban be on sales or use?

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Will the voluntary ban be on sales or use?

Can't see how it will be on sales if it will still be allowed for clays?

[Penelope]

7 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

It’s not as useless as you think 2.3/4 inch chambers 

I sincerely hope so.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

[Petay]

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

That’s about it 🙄

most most clay grounds don’t want steel on safety grounds 

but it’s safe elsewhere 🤔

Most clay grounds are close to public highways, have car parks / lodges on site and generally have a lot more people milling around them than your average pigeon / rough shoot. For driven days it's more of a potential issue as you have the betting line out I front of the guns but assumption is there firing clear into the sky and everyone on site is better controlled so less if a safety issue there.

[Papercase]

24 minutes ago, clangerman said:

just because people do not like shooting organisations pulling their trousers down for the opposition it does not make them a scab the only scabs in this are the shooting organisations they sold people out not the shooters 

BASC is our union - by leaving it rather than engaging with it I would term that as scabbing, being united we are stronger - that means not everyone will agree with everything and their will be compromise. If you feel let down by them call them - I imagine people far more educated in the science, legal and political landscape than me or you. BASC and GWCT etc have made this difficult decision - having delayed it for years scared of the average shooter who wants to carry on exactly the same as before spitting their dummy out

[Guest cookoff013]

I guess alot of home made shells would be made. 

The wording of the ban will be critical

[lancer425]

33 minutes ago, wymberley said:

You quoted me, but did you have the courtesy to read what I said first? Yes, we have those makers - and more - so are you denying that our makers aren't facing increasing competition from overseas? You could just ask yourself who owns some of those that you mention.

WE dont have an empire any more, we do not have a motorcycle or car industry any more. Even when we think TRiumph / british. its not its just a british name its like this in many industries in many countries not just here.

We got a gun trade but even that is overseas owned purdey etc. We perhaps could start producing guns again but why?. We are well catered for from overseas, and producing guns in our shooting climate with our laws etc, would probably end up like norton.

Our cartridge companies will have to move over and start changing as demand dictates.

  The danger here is that if game shooters do not start the transition, then the cartridge companies wont change / develop the steel and allternatives, because shooters are still not going with the advice from their representative bodies.

 going it alone, and then when the crunch finally comes, we are looking at perhaps less improvements compared to if we all started the steady smooth transition suggested to us.

[lancer425]

3 hours ago, Salopian said:

As a long time supporter of BASC can I just remind us all that BASC have always stated that they will support the phasing out of Lead in the environment PROVIDING an economical , efficient alternative to Lead shot can be identified.

I have seen the development of soft iron ( steel?) shot price escalate to be more expensive than some Lead loads and although I prefer and use Tungsten it is very expensive .

If lead shot is so harmful to wildfowl  why is it that we have not seen significant increases in wildfowl population since the implementation of a leadshot ban for wildfowling?

If lead is so harmful to the environment why is it that many lead mining communities have not shown significant mortality figures ?

When ammo got scares a few years ago, in lincolnshire a few claygrounds had the 7/8 and 1oz gamebore supper steels in and they were cheaper than the lead available.  Wildfowling ammo lead or non tox has always been more expensive, bigger payloads bigger powder charges wads buffer etc all bump up the price, and ammo makers never miss am opportunity to make money out of such sittuations.

 Cartridge sales down last year this could be a chance for the factories to make money again, they will be looking to get competative in the market place, and any that do not get competative will lose out to other firms from here and abroad.  I think, us not changing from lead is the threat to keeping prices high, they should really be producing clay ammo, and stopping game cartridge production altogether , taking away the option to use lead on quary to all but the few that reload.

[Sharpshooter.123]

I certainly won’t be beating whilst shooters are shooting steel shot into tree tops! Will be pinging off everything!! 

[lancer425]

22 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Will the voluntary ban be on sales or use?

Use i think, but should be sales, that will get the job done, and drive the cartridge companies into new development. What we dont want is stagnation, where the pro leads just carry on until its brought to law. "highly probable i mean look at the responses on here". It is a shame and really no need for all this negativity, in its most humble form "Steel" it works, not perhaps every last ft/lb for ft/ lb but close enough as to make no difference.  The devil is in the detail and exactly how we handle this transition time will impact on our future. We have a chance here to show we are responsible / care and are not anything like WJ etc label us. His "Avery"comments on this announcement, are are clear to see. we can not miss this chance to gain some merit on the vworld stage. we need to start the transition as suggested, and get on with the important battles we face, not worry about-the shot we use. its really not that important in the bigger scheme of things.  We wildfowlers get it done with steel others will do the same,

3 minutes ago, Sharpshooter.123 said:

I certainly won’t be beating whilst shooters are shooting steel shot into tree tops! Will be pinging off everything!! 

Lead never ricochet them. not even high antimony / copper/ nickel plated. ?

[wymberley]

36 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

WE dont have an empire any more, we do not have a motorcycle or car industry any more. Even when we think TRiumph / british. its not its just a british name its like this in many industries in many countries not just here.

We got a gun trade but even that is overseas owned purdey etc. We perhaps could start producing guns again but why?. We are well catered for from overseas, and producing guns in our shooting climate with our laws etc, would probably end up like norton.

Our cartridge companies will have to move over and start changing as demand dictates.

  The danger here is that if game shooters do not start the transition, then the cartridge companies wont change / develop the steel and allternatives, because shooters are still not going with the advice from their representative bodies.

 going it alone, and then when the crunch finally comes, we are looking at perhaps less improvements compared to if we all started the steady smooth transition suggested to us.

Thanks for posting, I was just going to ask about this and getting back to the topic in hand. I can't seem to find any reference to the immediate involvement of the GTA/and/or cartridge makers in this announcement other than asking them to be involved together with the associations' menbership. Has this announcement been made without any input/knowledge of it from/by this manufacturing base - but obviously the loaders in the main? I, personally, can't believe that is the case but don't know and it seems to me that 5 years - judging by the progress made over the previous 40 or more - is not all that viable. Consequently, I hope this is not the case and that they have been involved/consulted from the off and that this is not a pie in the sky figure plucked at random from the ether.One representative from one organisation did pop in earlier to day for a quick look so I wonder if the next similar visitor could give us a clue - unless someone already knows the answer.

[Sharpshooter.123]

3 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Use i think, but should be sales, that will get the job done, and drive the cartridge companies into new development. What we dont want is stagnation, where the pro leads just carry on until its brought to law. "highly probable i mean look at the responses on here". It is a shame and really no need for all this negativity, in its most humble form "Steel" it works, not perhaps every last ft/lb for ft/ lb but close enough as to make no difference.  The devil is in the detail and exactly how we handle this transition time will impact on our future. We have a chance here to show we are responsible / care and are not anything like WJ etc label us. His "Avery"comments on this announcement, are are clear to see. we can not miss this chance to gain some merit on the vworld stage. we need to start the transition as suggested, and get on with the important battles we face, not worry about-the shot we use. its really not that important in the bigger scheme of things.  We wildfowlers get it done with steel others will do the same,

Lead never ricochet them. not even high antimony / copper/ nickel plated. ?

Never said that it didn’t but it will be a bloody sight worse when it’s steel. 

[Rob85]

So if I had my guns chokes opened to half and quarter to shoot steel is there also not something about steel through half choke being the equivalent of full or super full choke? So with the advice of also reducing the range of your shots and taking a 15-20yd decoyed pigeon with something like that.. is there not a chance of ending up with shredded birds that are no good for eating? Thereby also rendering the "eat what we shoot" argument null and void

[Papercase]

Just now, Rob85 said:

So if I had my guns chokes opened to half and quarter to shoot steel is there also not something about steel through half choke being the equivalent of full or super full choke? So with the advice of also reducing the range of your shots and taking a 15-20yd decoyed pigeon with something like that.. is there not a chance of ending up with shredded birds that are no good for eating? Thereby also rendering the "eat what we shoot" argument null and void

Shot a number of pigeon and pheasant with 32g 5 steel through half and quarter and never noticed a difference.

[clangerman]

53 minutes ago, Papercase said:

BASC is our union - by leaving it rather than engaging with it I would term that as scabbing, being united we are stronger - that means not everyone will agree with everything and their will be compromise. If you feel let down by them call them - I imagine people far more educated in the science, legal and political landscape than me or you. BASC and GWCT etc have made this difficult decision - having delayed it for years scared of the average shooter who wants to carry on exactly the same as before spitting their dummy out

there’s a good reason my shells are cheaper in steel they are garbage basc done the fastest u turn i ever seen they should take up politics as for evidence and i mean real evidence from dead birds in the field there is none