Lead ban & BASC

rbrowning2 · March 9, 2020

3 minutes ago, Scully said:

I think there's a bit more to it than folklore, where do you think our organisations got the advice? From cartridge manufacturers quite possibly?

If in doubt you could always ring the proof house and ask, or Teague, or the gun manufacturers; after all, it's not like they don't have a vested interest in selling you something you don't need.....is it?

Thanks may just do that, speak to the proof house to get it from the horses mouth so to speak,

after all this from basc is hardly conclusive or comprehensive testing is it?

Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots [1]. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns.

But at least my option are becoming clearer thanks to the contribution people are making hear, like lancer425 who looks to have has his way forward worked out.

However I still want convincing that the shooting organisations made the correct decision at this time, but we are where we are and it is only a voluntary ban.

lancer425 · March 9, 2020

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thanks may just do that, speak to the proof house to get it from the horses mouth so to speak,

after all this from basc is hardly conclusive or comprehensive testing is it?

Tests have found that standard performance 24g steel loads did not cause any damage in thin-walled game guns, even after a thousand shots [1]. However, if you are unable to use steel then your main alternative is bismuth, which is suitable for both muzzle-loading and Damascus-barrelled guns.

But L7wSqbNCmUkat least my option are becoming clearer thanks to the contribution people are making hear, like lancer425 who looks to have has his way forward worked out.

However I still want convincing that the shooting organisations made the correct decision at this time, but we are where we are and it is only a voluntary ban.

Think the choke steel guidance is CIP .

PHEW i do not know about worked out. But i did mention an option of using a card tube and crimp closing it on a forming awl you could RTO it. glue 20ga card inside the roll of any crimp, and then a 12 nitro card on the end of that then the inverted cup. The gamebore card cup straight onto nitro card as in the TGS strip down vid is not going to survive i doubt, his wad breaking up on some shots allegedly, sort of poor and is not the way to go.

Speed is going to go now no more 1800+ FPS steel now. i am probably the only one who ever liked hyper fast steel loads in here so no loss to the pigeon watch massive.

Wish i could get a few thousand of these tubes in 16ga for my ten.

rbrowning2 · March 10, 2020

Nice video.
Interesting fact, waxed paper/cardboard apparently cannot be recycled and takes up to fifty years to breakdown in landfill which is why waxed boxes for fruit for example are being replaced by another environmental friendly chemical protection. Apparently it is an issue the packaging industry has been try to sort for awhile as thousands of tons ends up in landfill.
so the paper cases are not quite as environmentally friendly as we may at first think, as their is at least one company recycling plastic cases, all be it those that end up in landfill will be their for many more years than the paper cases.

Farmboy91 · March 10, 2020

23 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Nice video.
Interesting fact, waxed paper/cardboard apparently cannot be recycled and takes up to fifty years to breakdown in landfill which is why waxed boxes for fruit for example are being replaced by another environmental friendly chemical protection. Apparently it is an issue the packaging industry has been try to sort for awhile as thousands of tons ends up in landfill.
so the paper cases are not quite as environmentally friendly as we may at first think, as their is at least one company recycling plastic cases, all be it those that end up in landfill will be their for many more years than the paper cases.

Paper will rot though. One of my perms was owned by my uncle and plastic 16 and 12 bore Grand Prix cases circa 1970/80 forever turn up on the edge of the fields with only the brass (yes I know they weren't brass) missing.

Me and he's son stood talking at the edge of he's garden once and I noticed what I thought was a coin, so I picked it up and low and behold it was a 16 bore brass, minus the paper tube. 50 years might seem a long time but it's just a smidge realistically and it's a lot better than never.

oowee · March 10, 2020

Just Carts e mail response.

Question ; Given our new voluntary ban on lead will you be stocking these?

http://www.rioammo.com/en/rio_ammunition/products/hunting_cartridges/royal_eco_bluesteel

Answer : It is still very early days so at this point we are not sure – once the products become readily available to the UK we will think about adding to our range, but it requires a massive amount of effort so we won’t be doing that just yet. There will be other alternatives come through from some of our larger suppliers which we will no doubt be stocking, we do stock Rio so these may be something we consider but at present we simply don’t know yet.

Feltwad · March 10, 2020

Bismuth for muzzle loaders and Damascus barrels will soon ruin these barrels it is not for me .

Feltwad

motty · March 10, 2020

14 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Bismuth for muzzle loaders and Damascus barrels will soon ruin these barrels it is not for me .

Feltwad

What will ruin your barrels? I don't understand your post.

silver fox 1 · March 10, 2020

14 hours ago, Scully said:

The information is already out there. Officially if your gun is within nitro proof you can use standard steel through ANY choke, but nothing tighter than half with HP steel.

There is another issue that’s been raised with me,insurance putting steel through a non-steel proof gun it seems to me if anything was to go wrong you wouldn’t be insured, i’ve checked this with my insurance company and they Said that would be one for the gun experts. And we all know what that means.

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

I spouse the best way of preventing a difficult problem is to simply remove it from the equation in the first place. So with cases we are clearly going to get a challenge eventually, the fact we reuse them will only go so far and opponents will eventually claim they end up in landfill after 3 or 4 loadings.

There is paper, which is expensive and the age pld when it gets wet it swells, and yet if waxed it is not bio friendly enough as mentioned elsewhere.

Simple solution . "IF THYNE RIGHT EYE OFFEND THEE PLUCK IT OUT, AND CAST IT FROM ME FOR IT IS PROFITABLE"? " . :lol:

Just buy Brass cases at £1 each and job done.

The next problem these extortionate card cups +3.50 a box added to every box we make. Take it out of the equation again.

TGS with the video they did on no protective wad and steel shot, presented a very interesting aspect, and that is, the gun they used was a winchester pump 70s/ 80s at a guess, With "NO HARD CHROME BARRELS" . The video just fun or not highlighted point , do we need protection. ? Well i am of the opinion that we do , But i will admit that i have always felt that a much thicker nickel coating on pellets than the typical nickel washes" just a few microns thick "could stop damage to bores from hard shot types.

Now ok this will up the price of steel shot but, as it is now with this wading "FIBRE CUP" we are £3.50 a box, so if every load is 1oz. about 9p each load shot could double in price to get plating done and still be cheaper and less trouble. anybody in the nickel plating job with info on thickness’s and if they think it could survive and prevent any scratches if any ever happen in the first place.

Smokersmith · March 10, 2020

2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I spouse the best way of preventing a difficult problem is to simply remove it from the equation in the first place. So with cases we are clearly going to get a challenge eventually, the fact we reuse them will only go so far and opponents will eventually claim they end up in landfill after 3 or 4 loadings.

There is paper, which is expensive and the age pld when it gets wet it swells, and yet if waxed it is not bio friendly enough as mentioned elsewhere.

Simple solution . "IF THYNE RIGHT EYE OFFEND THEE PLUCK IT OUT, AND CAST IT FROM ME FOR IT IS PROFITABLE"? " .

Just buy Brass cases at £1 each and job done.

The next problem these extortionate card cups +3.50 a box added to every box we make. Take it out of the equation again.

TGS with the video they did on no protective wad and steel shot, presented a very interesting aspect, and that is, the gun they used was a winchester pump 70s/ 80s at a guess, With "NO HARD CHROME BARRELS" . The video just fun or not highlighted point , do we need protection. ? Well i am of the opinion that we do , But i will admit that i have always felt that a much thicker nickel coating on pellets than the typical nickel washes" just a few microns thick "could stop damage to bores from hard shot types.

Now ok this will up the price of steel shot but, as it is now with this wading "FIBRE CUP" we are £3.50 a box, so if every load is 1oz. about 9p each load shot could double in price to get plating done and still be cheaper and less trouble. anybody in the nickel plating job with info on thickness’s and if they think it could survive and prevent any scratches if any ever happen in the first place.

Same question on Zinc also .. it's currently available.

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

32 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Bismuth for muzzle loaders and Damascus barrels will soon ruin these barrels it is not for me .

Feltwad

It wont feltwad, i ran a joe Manton on it years.

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

27 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Same question on Zinc also .. it's currently available.

Nickel can go up to 20 microns, copper a little over a 100 microns. The thicker the plating the more money. How thick is this from CGR. anybody able to measure this, or take an educated guess as to how thick it probably is.?

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

Ten years ago. LP brezney.

https://www.wildfowlmag.com/editorial/tips_strategies_wf_polywad_0709a/280829

Wadless Loads For Small Smoothbores

New non-toxic offering fits 28-gauges.

By L.P. Brezny

Polywad has hit on a relatively new idea in shotshell development. In recent issues, I have probed other product ideas under development with Polywad. Well, here is another innovation. If the company doesn't market it themselves, I am sure another company will buy into the concept. In fact, I have been told a deal is in the works, and a new company coming into the non-toxic world is considering picking up the green loads.

Polywad GreenLite.

At the time of this review, few sources for non-toxic ammunition were available for the 28-gauge shotgun. Please, don't misunderstand. I do not consider the 28-gauge a waterfowl hunter's No. 1 choice in any way, but sometimes, a hunter who owns a sweet little 28 wants to sit back, wait for an in-your-face bird over the decoys and shoot it with the sub-gauge offering.

Most 28-gauges are of high value, so shooters pay close attention to what goes down those expensive bores. With that in mind, I think Polywad might have an edge with GreenLite 28-gauge loads.

Polywad has been developing this new shotshell for several years. The basic load (in either 28- or 20-gauge) doesn't contain a wad. When I took a round apart, I found a small, very soft paper cup that held the shot, followed by a very generous amount of buffer of a fine ground poly type. After that, I located the powder charge that sits directly under the polymer-buffering agent. I did not locate any over-powder card or plastic wad.

The load is contradictory to all modern methods of shotshell load construction. However, Jay Meneffe, the president of Polywad, never leaves a stone unturned when creating a new product.

The GreenLite 28-gauge loads have no gas seal and use only a filler material against the charge.

When the first loads arrived for testing, I tossed five live 20-gauge rounds into the bed of my pickup. That was their home for the next week as I traveled on South Dakota's dirt roads. I was trying to coax the powder to migrate into the buffer, because no wad separates them. After hauling the shotshells around, I shot them over my chronograph screens and noted no difference from test loads shot fresh from the package box. In other words, there was no migration of propellant.

As a propellant, I could have been looking at Alliant Green Dot, as it did retain a small green flake identifier in the dark black powder mix.

In terms of payload, the 28-gauge shotshells I received for review contained ½ ounce of No. 7 steel shot at 220 pellets per load. The velocity printed on the box showed 1,000 miles per hour, and a run through the chronograph screens would be required to get an fps database started.

In the 20-gauge shotshell, the 23â„4-inch hull contained a ¾-ounce payload and 240 No. 7 pellets. Both loads are designed to maintain low recoil and be easy on the shooter when tackling clays or small-game gunning. Youth shooters and ladies appreciate gentler recoil.

The chronograph screens recorded a string of test shots for the 28-gauge loads that measured an average of 1,581 fps. It is a fast load in terms of muzzle velocity, but with No. 7 pellets, speed is not only a positive feature of the load, it is required to bring down game birds.

While shooting the 20-gauge rounds over the speed screens, the muzzle velocity was much the same as in 28-gauge. Pellets left the barrel at an average 1,567 fps. In both cases, the 28-gauge and 20-gauge held an ES (extreme spread) from shot-to-shot velocity of 28 fps to 48 fps. In terms of ballistics results, the ES is tight, indicating the wadless and gas seal free loads maintain muzzle velocity and energy.

Pattern Tests
I test-fired the 20-gauge shotshells with a Remington 870 Express and a modified Rem choke tube. The test range was 30 yards. The No. 7 steel doesn't retain enough pellet speed down range to do much more than wound game beyond 35 yards (see chart below for energy and pellet velocity at varied ranges).

At 30 yards against a 30-inch circle, the shells returned 97 percent through 100 percent in a five-round test string, with an average of 97.5 percent.

The 28-gauge patterns also held to nearly 100 percent fired through my Franchi stack barrel with a modified choke in the upper barrel. Five rounds indicated an average pattern of 96 percent, with one shell at 100 percent in the test group.

Just to see the difference, I shot two patterns for each gauge at 40 yards. The prints were great -- 80-plus percent -- but knowing the loads are not designed for the far side of a decoy spread, I didn't press the issue.

These loads are designed for hunters who want a close, clean kill shot with a higher-end gun. In other words, it's about the gun and the hunt versus filling the game bag. However, development of a 12-gauge load for small ducks and general upland applications is underway.

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Salopian · March 10, 2020

A post from www.shotgunworld .com.

When we had to go non-tox for waterfowl, there was good science that supported the need to do it.

When we were forced to go non-toxic for all upland hunting, there was some marginal science to support that, but for the most part, not enough to truly support a total ban.

Now, we have this ban on lead for clay targets and everything else. Absolutely crazy, as there's absolutely zero science to support shooting lead at clays causes any issue for anything or anyone. Not one thing, period.

Some like to say that lead is toxic. Well, so can water be toxic. And water kills more people every year than being around or near lead does.

This California ban for targets is based on going after our 2nd Amendment rights, using 100 cuts to kill rather than a big blow.

So, I'm interested if Tom thinks there's an opportunity to push back here. There's no science supporting this bill. The NRA isn't going to do much, if anything to help us out.

Would it make sense for us clay shooters here in California to say "hell no, we aren't going along with this. It's nothing more than an attach on our 2nd Amendment rights and lead, in this application, has no proven negative side effects".

Would be interesting to hear what Tom thinks about the potential for us to push back. I mean, what can they say to "show us any research that shows lead to be a problem when used in clay target shooting". I mean, there's no bald eagles out here feasting on broken clay targets.

Inquiring minds need to know.....

motty · March 10, 2020

2 hours ago, silver fox 1 said:

There is another issue that’s been raised with me,insurance putting steel through a non-steel proof gun it seems to me if anything was to go wrong you wouldn’t be insured, i’ve checked this with my insurance company and they Said that would be one for the gun experts. And we all know what that means.

What do you envisage going wrong?

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

3 hours ago, silver fox 1 said:

There is another issue that’s been raised with me,insurance putting steel through a non-steel proof gun it seems to me if anything was to go wrong you wouldn’t be insured, i’ve checked this with my insurance company and they Said that would be one for the gun experts. And we all know what that means.

The 31/4 tone rnglish /usa guns rep here. to the lowlt 850kg euro guns, all are steel prof in the case of normal steel proof. The flueu de leys HP steel prof, is there and 1600psi in fabarbs etc. But in reallity irelivent in that the vast majority of the HP steel we get here ISNT in reallity HP at all. when you dig a bit deeper.

If you stick to normal steel. you are just as safe as shooting any other shot type.

Edited March 10, 2020 by lancer425

Smokersmith · March 10, 2020

My 2 Italian O/U's both have marks that mean they're proofed to 17637 psi. Not the new mark, but certainly sufficient for comfortable loads to shoot.

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

1 hour ago, Salopian said:

A post from www.shotgunworld .com.

When we had to go non-tox for waterfowl, there was good science that supported the need to do it.

When we were forced to go non-toxic for all upland hunting, there was some marginal science to support that, but for the most part, not enough to truly support a total ban.

Now, we have this ban on lead for clay targets and everything else. Absolutely crazy, as there's absolutely zero science to support shooting lead at clays causes any issue for anything or anyone. Not one thing, period.

Some like to say that lead is toxic. Well, so can water be toxic. And water kills more people every year than being around or near lead does.

This California ban for targets is based on going after our 2nd Amendment rights, using 100 cuts to kill rather than a big blow.

So, I'm interested if Tom thinks there's an opportunity to push back here. There's no science supporting this bill. The NRA isn't going to do much, if anything to help us out.

Would it make sense for us clay shooters here in California to say "hell no, we aren't going along with this. It's nothing more than an attach on our 2nd Amendment rights and lead, in this application, has no proven negative side effects".

Would be interesting to hear what Tom thinks about the potential for us to push back. I mean, what can they say to "show us any research that shows lead to be a problem when used in clay target shooting". I mean, there's no bald eagles out here feasting on broken clay targets.

Inquiring minds need to know.....

I do not think its just about the science alone. People do not want to feed meat shot with a toxic shot to their family and kids. There is no safe limit for lead in the human badly, so why do we want to expose ourselves to more of it than we do in normal environments. There is lead all over flaking paint off buildings water pipes we get too much of it in our world as it is without throwing tons of the lead about just because a few still want to and wont change.

shot type is the least of our problems right now its plastic now that is the pain to come out of all this Lead is NOTHING ZERO LOSS THERE TO ANYONE ANY GUN.

8 shot · March 10, 2020

24 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

The 31/4 tone rnglish /usa guns rep here. to the lowlt 850kg euro guns, all are steel prof in the case of normal steel proof. The flueu de leys HP steel prof, is there and 1600psi in fabarbs etc. But in reallity irelivent in that the vast majority of the HP steel we get here ISNT in reallity HP at all. when you dig a bit deeper.

If you stick to normal steel. you are just as safe as shooting any other shot type.

So, found the box for my Miroku's last with a certificate in there for the barrel length etc. Pressure note says 1370kg ? On the 20 bore

8 shot · March 10, 2020

5 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

I do not think its just about the science alone. People do not want to feed meat shot with a toxic shot to their family and kids. There is no safe limit for lead in the human badly, so why do we want to expose ourselves to more of it than we do in normal environments. There is lead all over flaking paint off buildings water pipes we get too much of it in our world as it is without throwing tons of the lead about just because a few still want to and wont change.

shot type is the least of our problems right now its plastic now that is the pain to come out of all this Lead is NOTHING ZERO LOSS THERE TO ANYONE ANY GUN.

I wouldn't mind knowing how much heavy metal actually passes though us all. We aren't allow to use it as are contracts for malting barley and milling wheat won't allow it, for I think 5 years before, but human sewage sludge has heavy metal in it including lead and that is treated I know, but there is a lot spread on arable ground all over the country. But needs must there 🤔 More important issues possibly?

Feltwad · March 10, 2020

3 hours ago, lancer425 said:

It wont feltwad, i ran a joe Manton on it years.

Did you not get barrel ripple or barrel scouring or scratching I have seen it happen in many muzzle loaders what a lot of shooters don't realize is that Damascus barrels are very soft and will easy damage in fact you can whittle Damascus barrels with knife they are that soft .Lead is the only safe shot to use in muzzle loading Damascus barrels has too shooting and restoration of muzzle loaders I have done this for the past 72 years

Feltwad

Edited March 10, 2020 by Feltwad

Scully · March 10, 2020

4 hours ago, Feltwad said:

Bismuth for muzzle loaders and Damascus barrels will soon ruin these barrels it is not for me .

Feltwad

In Norway (?) if I recall, they have been using steel through Damascus steel barrels for years, with no ill effects, according to the interview Charlie Jacoby had with a fellow shooter from there. It is currently viewable on Fieldsports tv on YouTube.
Still the obligatory plastic wad though.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Scully

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

10 minutes ago, Feltwad said:

Did you not get barrel ripple or barrel scouring or scratching I have seen it happen in many muzzle loaders what a lot of shooters don't realize is that Damascus barrels are very soft and will easy damage in fact you can whittle Damascus barrels with knife they are that soft .Lead is the only safe shot to use in muzzle loading Damascus barrels has too shooting and restoration of muzzle loaders I have done this for the past 72 years

Feltwad

Bismuth is no worse than Lead its just not trust me. It wont hurt any sound Damascus gun. just do as you do with Lead exactly. I have no evidence here but genuinely believe, a higher antimony lead shot like typical clay lead is potentially harder than bismuth.

Scully · March 10, 2020

4 hours ago, silver fox 1 said:

There is another issue that’s been raised with me,insurance putting steel through a non-steel proof gun it seems to me if anything was to go wrong you wouldn’t be insured, i’ve checked this with my insurance company and they Said that would be one for the gun experts. And we all know what that means.

Had this out with my NGO rep’, and as I said earlier; using standard steel shot through non steel proofed guns will NOT invalidate your insurance through that organisation. It would be highly hypocritical and unprofessional for any organisation to offer that advice and then try and claim your insurance is invalid for following such advice. This applies to all third party insurance as far as I’m aware.
It may be worth checking with the relevant insurer regarding a specific gun or guns, insured.

lancer425 · March 10, 2020

34 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

So, found the box for my Miroku's last with a certificate in there for the barrel length etc. Pressure note says 1370kg ? On the 20 bore

I do not understand why they are telling you not to use steel in that gun. NO IDEA at all why. Get back on to them you probably just got an anti lead chimpanzee who was eating grapes by the phone when it rang. .

Lead ban & BASC

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