Call me sceptical but !!!

[Westley]

15 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Don't do apps, so where does that put me?

 

On the verge of becoming er.....................extinct, I feel  ?    😉

[Danger-Mouse]

39 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Sorry to appear persistent 

however as the government has volunteered me and the area I live for the experiment into the app and the benefit of it to the nation I’m looking for input and the reason why people are against it 

thanks for your input 👍😊

Thanks mice for your input 👍😊 when /if it’s available in your local area will you download it ?

Reasons to be against. It's essentially tracking all your movement, all of your contact with other people. Combine that technology with something like facial recognition cameras and you're heading into very dangerous territory. We're already one of the most surveilled nations in the world. How long before you end up with something like China's social credit system? Remember the bloke who had the police come round to his house to "check his thinking"?

We already have AI predicting our shopping and various other habits. How long before a government AI watches you all day long, automatically issues speeding, parking, littering fines? Where does it stop?

[Old farrier]

22 minutes ago, Mr_Nobody said:

Reasons to be against. It's essentially tracking all your movement, all of your contact with other people. Combine that technology with something like facial recognition cameras and you're heading into very dangerous territory. We're already one of the most surveilled nations in the world. How long before you end up with something like China's social credit system? Remember the bloke who had the police come round to his house to "check his thinking"?

We already have AI predicting our shopping and various other habits. How long before a government AI watches you all day long, automatically issues speeding, parking, littering fines? Where does it stop?

Ok fair enough 

how do you propose that we should get out of the lockdown ? 

that everyone seems to have readily accepted 

[Smokersmith]

34 minutes ago, Mr_Nobody said:

Reasons to be against. It's essentially tracking all your movement, all of your contact with other people. Combine that technology with something like facial recognition cameras and you're heading into very dangerous territory. We're already one of the most surveilled nations in the world. How long before you end up with something like China's social credit system? Remember the bloke who had the police come round to his house to "check his thinking"?

We already have AI predicting our shopping and various other habits. How long before a government AI watches you all day long, automatically issues speeding, parking, littering fines? Where does it stop?

Stick within the law and it doesn’t start!

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Have you had it and recovered? 
 

better to know that you have had close contact with someone who has got it and safeguarding yourself and your family or workmates 

how about if you haven’t got the app your not coming into my shop ? 
or getting into my taxi? 
Or coming into the building site/factory ? 

all could be asked by the local manager 

I’m not really sure that would work, there are many elderly folk who either don’t have mobiles, or leave them at home when they go out. I seriously doubt any UK government would bring in legislation to make it compulsory to have the app. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Scully

[WalkedUp]

My mother in law turns her mobile phone on when she wants to make a call, then turns it off when she has finished 🤣 She’s not even that elderly. 

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

I’m not really sure that would work, there are many elderly folk who either don’t have mobiles, or FB leave them at home when they go out. I seriously doubt any UK government would bring in legislation to make it compulsory to have the app. 

Many elderly folks should be shielding at the moment so shouldn’t be going out anymore than a medically compromised person should be 

Let’s put it another way 

you can go shooting if you have the app 

you can’t if you don’t 

[Scully]

9 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Many elderly folks should be shielding at the moment so shouldn’t be going out anymore than a medically compromised person should be 

Let’s put it another way 

you can go shooting if you have the app 

you can’t if you don’t 

Maybe they should be, but I see plenty on a daily basis who aren’t. Some can get quite annoyed when you ask them if there’s anything you can get them at the shops. 😀
I can go shooting whenever I like; I can’t see how not having the app would stop me. 

[Old farrier]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

Maybe they should be, but I see plenty on a daily basis who aren’t. Some can get quite annoyed when you ask them if there’s anything you can get them at the shops. 😀
I can go shooting whenever I like; I can’t see how not having the app would stop me. 

I can’t Hampshire have stopped recreational shooting 

nice to see you live in a area that has taken the lockdown seriously 

[clangerman]

how ironic shooting alone will definitely be the safest place if the lockdown is lifted 

[Old farrier]

3 minutes ago, clangerman said:

how ironic shooting alone will definitely be the safest place if the lockdown is lifted 

How’s that or do you only get out pigeon shooting on your own? 
think about clay club’s rifle ranges air gun ranges 

[Mice!]

35 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Many elderly folks should be shielding at the moment so shouldn’t be going out anymore than a medically compromised person should be 

Let’s put it another way 

you can go shooting if you have the app 

you can’t if you don’t 

I nearly added shooting as well as work earlier,  hinting about getting back to your normal life. 

I don't like the idea of being watched I'll be honest,  but we've got an "Alexa" we call dorothy because we're sure it listens, your phone is always storing and sending stuff and you agree to about a thousand things when you get a new mobile anyway.

If we are told you have to have the app to go about your business then I would, but I wouldn't like it, it's funny how @AVB wants the lockdown lifted immediately and predicts an economic disaster but wouldn't agree to the App.

As for the old folk? If they haven't the sense to keep a low profile and avoid strangers then an App won't help them.

did anyone see,

on the news tonight they showed a piece about kids and adults with special needs who normally have carers come a few times a day but can't in the current situation,  while most folk are sat at home enjoying the break and sunshine on 80% pay maybe more, it must be really really hard for families like these trying to cope and explain what's going on, I'm normally classed as a heartless so and so, but it goes to show there are a lot of people who need the lockdown easing for different reasons. 

[clangerman]

Just now, Old farrier said:

How’s that or do you only get out pigeon shooting on your own? 
think about clay club’s rifle ranges air gun ranges 

i allow one old boy to go at present but give him all instruction and his location by phone lifting it or not is fine by me i just won’t be joining in any lift of lockdown as slowly dying seems slightly over rated 

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I can’t Hampshire have stopped recreational shooting 

nice to see you live in a area that has taken the lockdown seriously 

I think people are just getting on with their lives as best they can really. My OH signed up for the NHS Volunteer scheme as she’d been furloughed, thinking she would like to help those in need and would be inundated with calls from our village or the surrounding villages. She hasn’t had one call, and those she has asked have said they’re ok. She learned to be careful how she broached the subject when two local spinster sisters ( both in their 80’s ) said they were perfectly capable of shopping for themselves! She has stopped asking now, and when she’s not in the studio, she’s either in the garden, walking the dog, or knitting socks. 🙂 

To be honest, there’s not a lot in the village to indicate anything is amiss, although we all know there is. 

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, Mice! said:

 

As for the old folk? If they haven't the sense to keep a low profile and avoid strangers then an App won't help them.

did anyone see,

on the news tonight they showed a piece about kids and adults with special needs who normally have carers come a few times a day but can't in the current situation,  while most folk are sat at home enjoying the break and sunshine on 80% pay maybe more, it must be really really hard for families like these trying to cope and explain what's going on, I'm normally classed as a heartless so and so, but it goes to show there are a lot of people who need the lockdown easing for different reasons. 

It's not just the 'old folks'. I saw on the news tonight a photograph a passenger had taken of what looked like a full aeroplane of Aer Lingus which flies between Belfast and London. The passenger then contacted the media to complain about the lack of care regarding distancing, PPE etc! My question to the OH was 'why on earth did he get on if he wasn't happy?' Essential travelling? Who knows. 

My sister has an autistic 28 year old. No it isn't easy. He can't really understand why he can't go to work nor play snooker down at the Con club. 

[Danger-Mouse]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

Stick within the law and it doesn’t start!

It starts the minute it's implemented.

Presuming you drive, you fancy getting a ticket every time your concentration drifts and you stray 1 mph over the limit?  Or when you hit the gas to avoid a bad situation?

How about the people who say they don't want the app. Permanently locked down? Loss of social privileges? Re-education camps perhaps?

 

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, Scully said:

It's not just the 'old folks'. I saw on the news tonight a photograph a passenger had taken of what looked like a full aeroplane of Aer Lingus which flies between Belfast and London. The passenger then contacted the media to complain about the lack of care regarding distancing, PPE etc! My question to the OH was 'why on earth did he get on if he wasn't happy?' Essential travelling? Who knows. 

My sister has an autistic 28 year old. No it isn't easy. He can't really understand why he can't go to work nor play snooker down at the Con club. 

Did you not see the interview with the company? They said no point social distancing on a plane because you're all breathing the same air!! They also dont want empty seats because it's not economical.

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

Did you not see the interview with the company? They said no point social distancing on a plane because you're all breathing the same air!! They also dont want empty seats because it's not economical.

Exactly. the whole point of running an airline is to cram as many people in there as possible; it's that which keeps the costs down. Totally uneconomical. 

I switched it off at that point so I'm not aware what else was said. 

[Danger-Mouse]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

Ok fair enough 

how do you propose that we should get out of the lockdown ? 

that everyone seems to have readily accepted 

You either wait for a cure or develop herd immunity. The lock down was only ever about making sure the NHS wasn't overwhelmed.

Interesting you talk about acceptance. Earlier I listened to the Mogg Cast and JRM was saying the UK public have not only accepted the lock down but have exceeded government expectations. For all the criticism the police have received they have only handed out a few thousand tickets, compared to say France or Spain where it's hundreds of thousands.

[AVB]

45 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I nearly added shooting as well as work earlier,  hinting about getting back to your normal life. 

I don't like the idea of being watched I'll be honest,  but we've got an "Alexa" we call dorothy because we're sure it listens, your phone is always storing and sending stuff and you agree to about a thousand things when you get a new mobile anyway.

If we are told you have to have the app to go about your business then I would, but I wouldn't like it, it's funny how @AVB wants the lockdown lifted immediately and predicts an economic disaster but wouldn't agree to the App.

As for the old folk? If they haven't the sense to keep a low profile and avoid strangers then an App won't help them.

did anyone see,

on the news tonight they showed a piece about kids and adults with special needs who normally have carers come a few times a day but can't in the current situation,  while most folk are sat at home enjoying the break and sunshine on 80% pay maybe more, it must be really really hard for families like these trying to cope and explain what's going on, I'm normally classed as a heartless so and so, but it goes to show there are a lot of people who need the lockdown easing for different reasons. 

You have me wrong. I have no objection to the tracing app as proposed. I objected to the proposal that OF made that people should be restricted to specific areas and an app (not THE app) used to track peoples movements to comply with the restrictions. 

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, AVB said:

You have me wrong. I have no objection to the tracing app as proposed. I objected to the proposal that OF made that people should be restricted to specific areas and an app (not THE app) used to track peoples movements to comply with the restrictions. 

Apologises then, but I imagine they will start with restrictions on distance. If for instance everyone says right, let's go the Lakes or Wales or Cornwall mingles briefly then goes home we will be back to square one again.

I think another few weeks to see how Italy and Germany get on is a good idea, if there are mistakes to be made, better its others that make them.

15 minutes ago, Scully said:

Exactly. the whole point of running an airline is to cram as many people in there as possible; it's that which keeps the costs down. Totally uneconomical. 

I switched it off at that point so I'm not aware what else was said. 

One airline said they were putting more flights on! Either social distancing applies or it doesn't surely?

[Norfolk wildfowler]

On 04/05/2020 at 22:34, Mr_Nobody said:

It's pretty much irrelevant anyway seeing as the EU scheme failed to deliver a single item to any member state after a month of starting the scheme. 

Responding to a report in the Guardian that the U.K. missed three opportunities to be part of an EU procurement scheme for protective equipment, the prime minister's official spokesman told journalists: "Participating in this scheme would not have allowed us to do anything that we have not been able to do ourselves.”

 

“For the majority of PPE included in the EU scheme, the supply of items to participating countries is still subject to the European Commission signing off individual contracts with suppliers. [On] the placing of orders and negotiations on delivery schedules, we understand that participating countries may begin to receive PPE starting from two weeks after orders are placed, but delivery will be subject to the same demand pressures of all other procurement currently taking place."

What I did not realise the EU scheme did not need to import from abroad and was able to get their needs internally though they thought they were going to have to import from outside the EU , but internal demand was not as high as expected.

 

Pre the virus outbreak. World PPE production.

 

EU 25.95%USA 18.30%China 7.72%Row 48.03%

Source: World Bank WITS and Bruegel’s own calculations.

 

That’s why the scheme never got going , but instead of scouring the world markets the UK could have shared in the excess they were producing.

The timeline of the episode shows how the government handled the situation:

4 February

British officials attended a meeting in Brussels during which the European Commission said it was ready to help organise the bulk-buying medical equipment using the power of the single market.

2 March

British officials attended another EU meeting where the commission’s health department said 20 EU countries were ready to join such a scheme for personal protective equipment.

13 March

British officials attended another meeting where EU officials discussed the addition of ventilators to the procurement scheme.

17 March

A spokesperson for the commission confirms in public when asked by journalists whether the UK is able to take part in the procurement scheme.

19 March

The prime minister Boris Johnson is urged by British politicians to join the scheme. In Brussels, the UK takes part in another meeting on joint procurement

24 March

Ursula von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, announces publicly that the commission’s joint procurement initiative had generated “concrete offers of considerable scale at short notice” to supply surgical masks, overalls, goggles, and face shields.

26 March

Asked in the morning why the UK isn’t taking part in the scheme, a Downing Street spokesperson says: “We are no longer members of the EU.” Boris Johnson is accused off being “ideological” for not taking part.

Later in the evening the prime minister’s spokesperson tells Westminster journalists that in fact, a communication error meant the UK had missed the invitation to participate in the scheme

29 March 

Asked why the government did not join the scheme, cabinet minister Michael Gove tells The Andrew Marr Show “there is nothing that we can’t do as an independent nation that being part of that scheme would have allowed us to do” adding that there was “communication confusion”.

10 April

Matt Hancock tells a Downing Street briefing the UK is working hard opening new supply lines for protective equipment around the world to fill a shortage.

12 April

The extended deadline for putting orders in the latest round of the EU’s equipment procurement scheme. The UK has placed no orders.

14 April 

Cabinet minister Therese Coffey seems to suggest not going the scheme was a deliberate decision, telling LBC radio: “The government has made an assessment that by joining the schemes, it wasn’t going to make any particular difference.”

21 April

The Foreign Office’s top civil servant Sir Simon McDonald tells MPs he briefed ministers about the options and that they made a “political decision” not to join the scheme.

Later in the afternoon, Matt Hancock tells a daily press briefing “as far as I’m aware there was no political decision not to participate in that scheme ... we are now members of that scheme”.

Following the briefing by the health secretary, Sir Simon writes to MPs to retract what he told them.

22 April 

Contrary to what Matt Hancock said the day before, EU officials tell The Independent: “They are not participating in any of the existing schemes but they have indicated that they would be open to participating in any future schemes.” In Brussels, a Commission spokesperson refers to the meetings the EU attended and says there was “ample opportunity” to join.  At a briefing in Westminster, a Downing Street spokesperson says “nobody” leant on Sir Simon to get him to retract his report to MPs

 

Too little too late the story of Boris and co.

[Walker570]

I object to being treated as a decrepid antique. I am more than capable of using my own common sense when I am out and about and don't even suggest to my wife that she should stay put like a prisoner, she is much fitter than I and walks 4 miles every day to collect the newspaper.  I believe the country should get back to normal as soon as possible and if people have not learned about the situation in the last 6 weeks then they must stand the consequences.  Nobody has to leave their homes if they don't want to and apparently the Fake News media say that 70% of people want to stay locked down. 

Is it not true then that the EU 'Scheme' collapsed

Edited May 5, 2020 by Walker570

[toontastic]

Norfolk wildfowler, you go on and on about PPE and us not joining the EU scheme. You talk about us getting a share of excess PPE. But EU countries have none themselves We have German health care workers protesting about working with NO PPE and yet you seem to think they'll share what little they have with us. 

[Old farrier]

8 hours ago, AVB said:

You have me wrong. I have no objection to the tracing app as proposed. I objected to the proposal that OF made that people should be restricted to specific areas and an app (not THE app) used to track peoples movements to comply with the restrictions. 

My apologies for upsetting you with the suggested distancing restrictions 

although if you’re following the news you will see that there already in place 

the fish and chip thread should give you a idea 

 

8 hours ago, Walker570 said:

I object to being treated as a decrepid antique. I am more than capable of using my own common sense when I am out and about and don't even suggest to my wife that she should stay put like a prisoner, she is much fitter than I and walks 4 miles every day to collect the newspaper.  I believe the country should get back to normal as soon as possible and if people have not learned about the situation in the last 6 weeks then they must stand the consequences.  Nobody has to leave their homes if they don't want to and apparently the Fake News media say that 70% of people want to stay locked down. 

Is it not true then that the EU 'Scheme' collapsed

I’m sure you’re more than capable of using common sense 

however I bet you can think of many in your long and varied life that arnt capable