Call me sceptical but !!!

[Gordon R]

Quote

For all the criticism the police have received they have only handed out a few thousand tickets, compared to say France or Spain where it's hundreds of thousands.

All credit to the Police, who are taking a sensible approach.

Quote

 

Sadly - those continuously urging the government to buy from left right and centre from the many people offering supplies - have persuaded teh procurement people to try and take short cuts - which has inadvertantly led to this event.

perhaps those who complain that the procurement don't take up all these rushed offers will understand now that many will be unsuitable.

 

Valid point.

[Mice!]

46 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

should a buyer not have been sent samples to ensure the suitably of the product for use

I'm sure they were, but ten samples is a world away from 400,000 rushed through gowns. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I'm sure they were, but ten samples is a world away from 400,000 rushed through gowns. 

Not only that - but where there is massive pressure from the press, the opposition, the public (egged on by the press), some elements of the medical profession - then it is likely that normal checks and balances were bypassed and risks taken to speed delivery and minimise delay.  The very open public pressure from some well known TV presenters etc, who are all mouth and eyes on the ratings has in this instance probably caused wasted money, time and effort all round whereas a more measured approach might have had better results.

Normally, getting a product approved for use in a demanding environment like hospitals takes a long time, and suppliers undergo various checks to their quality control, supply chain quality control etc. 

The good news seems to be that the pressure is a tiny bit lower on the NHS, PPE etc., though still far from over.

[Mice!]

I've just watched 5 minutes of sky news, they were trying to say the gowns should have been checked before loading on the plane, they are clueless.  The stuff is ordered to a spec and that's what you expect. 

Hopefully the gowns can still be used in care homes and won't simply be binned. 

[panoma1]

36 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I've just watched 5 minutes of sky news, they were trying to say the gowns should have been checked before loading on the plane, they are clueless.  The stuff is ordered to a spec and that's what you expect. 

Hopefully the gowns can still be used in care homes and won't simply be binned. 

If payment hasn’t been made, refuse to pay, and tell the Turks to come and get em! Or we’ll deliver them for the cost of delivery, plus the money it cost for the RAF to collect them!.......payment to be “in advance”

Edited May 7, 2020 by panoma1

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Not only that - but where there is massive pressure from the press, the opposition, the public (egged on by the press), some elements of the medical profession - then it is likely that normal checks and balances were bypassed and risks taken to speed delivery and minimise delay.  The very open public pressure from some well known TV presenters etc, who are all mouth and eyes on the ratings has in this instance probably caused wasted money, time and effort all round whereas a more measured approach might have had better results.

Normally, getting a product approved for use in a demanding environment like hospitals takes a long time, and suppliers undergo various checks to their quality control, supply chain quality control etc. 

The good news seems to be that the pressure is a tiny bit lower on the NHS, PPE etc., though still far from over.

Agree .

9 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

If payment hasn’t been made, refuse to pay, and tell the Turks to come and get em! Or we’ll deliver them for the cost of delivery, plus the money it cost for the RAF to collect them!.......payment to be “in advance”

I threaten to start a case with paypal when i buy any cruddy sub standard goods from abroad. You never know they might get 800  000 deliverd by the end of the week and told they can keep the 400/ 000 .

[Old farrier]

Or we could just take a look at the whole ppe situation and process 

let’s get a free workforce in this country to make it 

not possible? 
well just a random idea 

we equip the prison system with the equipment to make and manufacture it gowns scrubs etc 

and offer the prisoners the opportunity to make them 

work to a high standard work proper hours and efficiently 

obviously they need a incentive?

for every week you work properly you get a week knocked of your sentences 

I appreciate not all would or could do this work but it would help provide a service for the country and give those that chose to do it a bit of rehabilitation and a possibility of a work ethic 

crazy idea? 

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Or we could just take a look at the whole ppe situation and process 

let’s get a free workforce in this country to make it 

not possible? 
well just a random idea 

we equip the prison system with the equipment to make and manufacture it gowns scrubs etc 

and offer the prisoners the opportunity to make them 

work to a high standard work proper hours and efficiently 

obviously they need a incentive?

for every week you work properly you get a week knocked of your sentences 

I appreciate not all would or could do this work but it would help provide a service for the country and give those that chose to do it a bit of rehabilitation and a possibility of a work ethic 

crazy idea? 

Not crazy as such, but how it would be practically implemented and how it would work is possibly a bit unclear. But Its At least positive thinking, which is rare surrounding this virus.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Not crazy as such, but how it would be practically implemented and how it would work is possibly a bit unclear. But Its At least positive thinking, which is rare surrounding this virus.

Well I shall have to leave the practical implementation to the home-office

I could add that for anyone not wishing to participate in the work program/ rehabilitation a very dim view would be taken at parole meetings   

[Mice!]

21 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

we equip the prison system with the equipment to make and manufacture it gowns scrubs etc 

Long term it's an idea but not now when they need stuff.

Have you ever watched anything on the USA prisons, they are a massive labour force.

[lancer425]

6 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Well I shall have to leave the practical implementation to the home-office

I could add that for anyone not wishing to participate in the work program/ rehabilitation a very dim view would be taken at parole meetings   

But it is Positive thinking.

[Old farrier]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

Long term it's an idea but not now when they need stuff.

Have you ever watched anything on the USA prisons, they are a massive labour force.

Appreciate it’s a long term thing however this virus is changing things and with that in mind it’s a possible time to start implementing this sort of thing 

not seen the American program so can’t comment 

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

Appreciate it’s a long term thing however this virus is changing things and with that in mind it’s a possible time to start implementing this sort of thing 

not seen the American program so can’t comment 

Yes I agree, but I doubt you will get people going into a prison to train people at the moment. 

It would be better spreading the work around our country than relying on a foreign country. 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

then it is likely that normal checks and balances were bypassed and risks taken to speed delivery and minimise delay. 

Whose fault is that? The press or whoever squeaking about a shortage of PPE might factor in mitigation, but ultimately the responsibility for ordering the correct equipment lies with the people whose job it is to order the correct equipment! Outside pressure doesn't alter that.

[Old farrier]

8 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Yes I agree, but I doubt you will get people going into a prison to train people at the moment. 

It would be better spreading the work around our country than relying on a foreign country. 

I’m pretty sure that there’s a tailor or seamstress in prison at the moment for something 

If we spread it around the country there’s a labour cost 

[clangerman]

when the government can’t mobilise a garment manufacturer to knock out as many gowns as needed there’s something very wrong it’s not like we never had a clothing industry 

[lancer425]

5 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Whose fault is that? The press or whoever squeaking about a shortage of PPE might factor in mitigation, but ultimately the responsibility for ordering the correct equipment lies with the people whose job it is to order the correct equipment! Outside pressure doesn't alter that.

You can only order an item, you can check samples if you have them and have the time. But quite often if your buying 400 000 Hospital gowns or a Universal Rear light for a Motorcycle.   Might look great might even have some Suitability options or even spec . But nothing like getting It delivered and finding out just how good it is.

Can not blame the RAF lads is this it load it in then. Im off.

If its not suiyable on getting it unpackaged its not suitable. The next move regaining money is another thing. Its just a shame we did not get suitable Kit. But it happens.

Might just be a stand up Turkish firm, that’s sorting suitable replacement stuff right now. OR not as the case may be.

[lancer425]

16 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Whose fault is that? The press or whoever squeaking about a shortage of PPE might factor in mitigation, but ultimately the responsibility for ordering the correct equipment lies with the people whose job it is to order the correct equipment! Outside pressure doesn't alter that.

Who is to say correct gear was not ordered. Its not forced to be the right stuff has been handed over. Might be perfectly innocent, or might be a cowboy outfit in turkey chancing their hand in a crisis. Might have been the wrong order this end. Mistakes do happen. In any government in the world.

5 minutes ago, clangerman said:

when the government can’t mobilise a garment manufacturer to knock out as many gowns as needed there’s something very wrong it’s not like we never had a clothing industry 

Not just about making items, its materials and when the items we need already are there to be purchased, we might be forgiven for buying them as was done rather than the time involved with production at home.

 

[Retsdon]

If the Turkish firm is a reputable outfit that didn't deliver to spec, then fair enough. If it's anything else - either the wrong stuff was ordered or due diligence into the supplier's  bona fides wasnt done properly - it means the ball was dropped on this side of the water. 

400,000 gowns has to add up to several million pounds of taxpayers money that was paid out in advance and is now almost certainly lost. You can't just say, oh well, never mind, understandable mistake, better luck next time. 

[JohnfromUK]

37 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

ultimately the responsibility for ordering the correct equipment lies with the people whose job it is to order the correct equipment! Outside pressure doesn't alter that.

True, then it will be the usual NHS procurement channels.  I have no idea what 'emergency surge' procurement capability exists (as the MoD have) for the NHS - if indeed there is any emergency procedure.  I suspect very possibly the 'order' as such was probably correct, but the goods delivered didn't match up to the order - but I'm guessing.

[Yellow Bear]

59 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Not crazy as such, but how it would be practically implemented and how it would work is possibly a bit unclear. But Its At least positive thinking, which is rare surrounding this virus.

The trouble would start with the "snowflakes and lefties" saying it is slave labour and the Unions would chip in with "it is doing honest members out of a job" and "you have to pay the going rate" and go on from there.

[Zapp]

On the subject of prisons and PPE, quite a few are already doing this but theres not much coverage because the press isn't interested on the whole in good news stories about prisoners.

Mass mobilisation for this would be difficult though as regimes are currently heavily locked down to contain/slow outbreaks as they occur.

[Mice!]

36 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

I’m pretty sure that there’s a tailor or seamstress in prison at the moment for something 

If we spread it around the country there’s a labour cost 

I imagine there are a lot of companies who could do the work with their employees sat at home furloughed? So they are being paid. 

Smaller batches would hopefully get done, so less risk of the 400,000 being wrong all at once.

[Old farrier]

14 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I imagine there are a lot of companies who could do the work with their employees sat at home furloughed? So they are being paid. 

Smaller batches would hopefully get done, so less risk of the 400,000 being wrong all at once.

Probably not explained my idea well enough 

my initial plan is for the future and to keep the cost to minimum prisoners would work for reduced sentence 

I didn’t want to impact British companies 

although you are quite right there’s plenty of furloughed workers that could be making the ppe here at the moment 

anyway if we can think of it I’m sure there’s a politician that can 🤔

[old'un]

I wonder if Turkey had one of these documents put through their letter box before manufacture, to me it clearly lays down the spec for all PPE….https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/883334/Essential_Technical_Specifications__5_.pdf