Demonstrations in london

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, discobob said:

A lot of the 'far right' protesters in the news were actually veterans wanting to protect the cenotaph etc..

I am getting very dizzy with all this spinning on the news

I know , hence the ' ' 
You wont get any fair representation through the mainstream news vendors these days, BBC , C4, Sky and ITV  will all try to put positive spin on the actions of the left.
Any that give a positive report to the right, will be singled out as racist , 'far' right sympathisers .

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, discobob said:

Has anybody seen Naughts and Crosses - I haven't but I know what it is about. I can see this coming around

You apparently don't know enough about it to realise it's based on an alternative history? If you have access to a time machine, please share it 😛 

Just now, Rewulf said:

I know , hence the ' ' 
You wont get any fair representation through the mainstream news vendors these days, BBC , C4, Sky and ITV  will all try to put positive spin on the actions of the left.
Any that give a positive report to the right, will be singled out as racist , 'far' right sympathisers .

Hmm, I predicted this would be the line last week...

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There you go again, taking it to the extreme. 

What the like the 'extreme' far right  ?
The all new right , thats worse than 'far' right 

 

4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Why not ponder how many incidents there were of "far right" protesters stepping in to assist BLM protesters in distress?

As above , the MSN wont report that will they ?

 

5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I'm also at a bit of a loss as to why the statue protectors congregated around statues and monuments that had already been boarded up, not very bright, perhaps?

There you go again , right wingers are stoopid 
I cant show the pictures of what BLM has written on the boards, they are, not very nice...

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Hmm, I predicted this would be the line last week...

You disagree I presume 

[discobob]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

You apparently don't know enough about it to realise it's based on an alternative history? If you have access to a time machine, please share it 😛 

Of course it is based on that - Duh!!! but it is based in an alternative present - I was responding to the "Blacks are Untouchable" comment - where this alternative present may actually start forcing its way across!

You need more than a time machine to jump between dimensions - you need a TARDIS dragging power from a collapsing sun - and that is just to communicate

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

There you go again , right wingers are stoopid 

They show up to protect a statue and end up fighting with the Police, stupid or genius, feel free to make your own mind up...

You disagree I presume 

No, I fully agree with my prediction 🙂

A lot of those veterans look like they were barely out of their teens...

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, discobob said:

Of course it is based on that - Duh!!! but it is based in an alternative present - I was responding to the "Blacks are Untouchable" comment - where this alternative present may actually start forcing its way across!

You need more than a time machine to jump between dimensions - you need a TARDIS dragging power from a collapsing sun - and that is just to communicate

So, we conclude and agree it's all fantasy, including the notion that Blacks are (or ever will be) Untouchable, brilliant.

The new mantra I took from the weekend was the notion that it's "Everyone Against Racists", I am hopeful it will evolve to "Everyone Against Discrimination", when that is reached even the stupid won't need to feel that they are being discriminated against.

[discobob]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So, we conclude and agree it's all fantasy, including the notion that Blacks are (or ever will be) Untouchable, brilliant.

There are many instances where fiction has become fact 

I fell though that the behavior that is happening though is actually a self fulfilling prophesy

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, discobob said:

There are many instances where fiction has become fact 

I agree.

I fell though that the behavior that is happening though is actually a self fulfilling prophesy

I see self fulfilling prophecies which focus on personal negative outcomes as defeatist and a form of self-victimisation.

 

[discobob]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

I see self fulfilling prophecies which focus on personal negative outcomes as defeatist and a form of self-victimisation.

If it does happen - that will cause an utter catastrophic reaction by the powers that be that will end up with BAU becoming fact - rather than all lives matter and all people are equal

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, discobob said:

If it does happen - that will cause an utter catastrophic reaction by the powers that be that will end up with BAU becoming fact - rather than all lives matter and all people are equal

That won't keep me awake at night.

There will always be differences that people use to create prejudice and discrimination, a little bit of tension is probably actually a good thing, it's when these things are taken to extreme that the issues occur.

[Rewulf]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

A lot of those veterans look like they were barely out of their teens...

As I said above , both sides look bad..to me .. the news spins it differently .

They werent all vets, some were football hooligan types , and Britain First thugs, they made themselves look stupid fighting the police, Ive heard the vets were peaceful and obeyed the dispersal order.
As I said , No BLM got stabbed, beaten , throats cut ect, they went tooled for violence, and theres plenty of footage going around with the police turning a blind eye to BLM attacks.
The right wingers scuffles with the police made front page news.
Heres an example , the man urinating on Keith Palmers memorial , got 2 weeks jail, thats fast justice.
The lad climbing all over the Cenotaph and trying to set fire to the flag, wasnt even arrested, theres even a full fact page saying the lad named wasnt him .

Plenty more examples if you require.

[Rewulf]

Boris says..

It was utterly absurd that a load of far-right thugs and bovver boys converged on London with a mission to protect the statue of Winston Churchill. It was right that a good number should have been arrested. They were violent. They were aggressive towards the police. They were patently racist. There is nothing that can excuse their behaviour.

And yet it was also, frankly, absurd and deplorable that the statue of Winston Churchill should have been in any plausible danger of attack. It was outrageous that anyone could even have claimed that the statue needed protection. It was and is miserable to see his statue entombed in its protective sheath.

It is true that the monument has been covered up several times before, in anticipation of trouble, after consultation with the Mayor’s office and English Heritage, because the police believe that is the safest and simplest thing to do. But many people will look at that image and feel a sense of bewilderment.

Why attack Churchill? What has the world come to when one of this country’s greatest ever leaders – perhaps our greatest - has to be shielded from the wrath of the mob? We all understand the depth of feeling that has been exposed by the killing, in Minnesota, of George Floyd. No one who cares about this country can ignore the many thousands of people who have joined the Black Lives Movement to protest peacefully, as most of them have, in the last few days. It is no use just saying that we have made huge progress in tackling racism.

There is much more that we need to do; and we will. It is time for a cross-governmental commission to look at all aspects of inequality – in employment, in health outcomes, in academic and all other walks of life. We need to tackle the substance of the problem, not the symbols. We need to address the present, not attempt to re-write the past – and that means we cannot and must not get sucked into never-ending debate about which well-known historical figure is sufficiently pure or politically correct to remain in public view.

Where will it end? Are we supposed to haul down Cromwell who killed so many thousands of people in Ireland? What about Nelson and all the other innumerable reminders of this country’s imperial past? Take the case of Ayuba Suleiman Diallo, whose portrait hangs in Room 15 of the National Portrait Gallery. He was a native of the Gambia who was known and admired in C18 London as a translator of Arab texts. He was also, originally, a slaver himself. Does that mean he should be purged from the Gallery?

My point is that our history is immensely complex, and modern Britain is a product of a vast conglomerate of ideas and beliefs – not all of which look good in the light of today. Yes, Churchill expressed all sorts of views over his immense career – and bear in mind that he entered parliament under Queen Victoria and left it under Queen Elizabeth - which are totally unacceptable to modern ears.

As it happens, he generally changed with the times. He changed his view on India, and her capacity for independence; and whatever he may have said about Islam in the 1890s, he also built the Regent’s Park Mosque in the 1940s. And above all – as so many have rightly pointed out – it is the height of lunacy to accuse him of racism, when he stood alone against a racist tyranny that without his resistance would have overwhelmed this country and the rest of Europe.

He was a hero, and I expect I am not alone in saying that I will resist with every breath in my body any attempt to remove that statue from Parliament Square, and the sooner his protective shielding comes off the better.

It is not just that is wrong to destroy public property by violence. I am also extremely dubious about the growing campaign to edit or photoshop the entire cultural landscape. If we start purging the record and removing the images of all but those whose attitudes conform to our own, we are engaged in a great lie, a distortion of our history – like some public figure furtively trying to make themselves look better by editing their own Wikipedia entry.

Would it not be better and more honest to ask our children to understand the context, to explain the mixture of good and bad in the career of Churchill and everyone else? And rather than tear some people down, we should build others up, and celebrate the people who we in this generation believe are worthy of memorial. We have brilliant sculptors and artists. Why should they not be commissioned to make fitting additions to the landscape and cityscape? Take the great courtyard in the Foreign and Commonwealth office, where stone statues of British explorers and imperialists look down from the niches. Many of the niches are for some reason unfilled.

Rather than tear down the past, why not add some of the men and women – most often BAME – who helped to make our modern Commonwealth and our modern world? Isn’t that a more cheerful approach?

This new vogue for politically correct iconoclasm is not just dispiriting, and unfair, and often ahistorical. Worst of all, it is a total distraction from the matter in hand. It does nothing for BAME people to go around mutilating statues, or campaigning against this or that cultural relic. There are far greater and more important battles.

In the last ten years we have seen a big expansion in BAME students at our universities; more young black kids excelling in the most challenging subjects at school. The struggle now is to turn that into the universal narrative and the universal expectation – a story of success and not discrimination. That means taking seriously the serious points that are raised by the marchers. It means addressing racism and discrimination, and stamping it out.

But it does not mean wasting time in delectable academic disputation about the life and opinions of every historical personality currently immortalised in bronze or stone.

Let’s fight racism, but leave our heritage broadly in peace. If we really want to change it, there are democratic means available in this country – thanks, by the way, to Winston Churchill.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Why attack Churchill? What has the world come to when one of this country’s greatest ever leaders – perhaps our greatest - has to be shielded from the wrath of the mob

I think attacking Churchill's monument and the Cenotaph shows just how little the people doing it actually know about history.

We were out walking at the weekend in a small village we hadn't been in before,  the war memorial seemed out of place being as grand as it was but we stopped and looked and the kids asked questions.

The very idea of attacking a war memorial is shocking. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Mice! said:

I think attacking Churchill's monument and the Cenotaph shows just how little the people doing it actually know about history.

We were out walking at the weekend in a small village we hadn't been in before,  the war memorial seemed out of place being as grand as it was but we stopped and looked and the kids asked questions.

The very idea of attacking a war memorial is shocking. 

They don't care about history, it is just the latest "bandwagon" to jump on!

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

As I said above , both sides look bad..to me .. the news spins it differently .

They werent all vets, some were football hooligan types , and Britain First thugs, they made themselves look stupid fighting the police, Ive heard the vets were peaceful and obeyed the dispersal order.
As I said , No BLM got stabbed, beaten , throats cut ect, they went tooled for violence, and theres plenty of footage going around with the police turning a blind eye to BLM attacks.
The right wingers scuffles with the police made front page news.
Heres an example , the man urinating on Keith Palmers memorial , got 2 weeks jail, thats fast justice.
The lad climbing all over the Cenotaph and trying to set fire to the flag, wasnt even arrested, theres even a full fact page saying the lad named wasnt him .

Plenty more examples if you require.

But that was always going to be the case, I'm not condoning the behaviour of anyone acting illegally but if I was FORCED to "choose" between a group of people standing for the eradication of racial prejudice and discrimination or a group standing for it's continuation, then for me personally there is no choice to be made, it's a given.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Boris says..

It was utterly absurd that a load of far-right thugs and bovver boys converged on London with a mission to protect the statue of Winston Churchill. It was right that a good number should have been arrested. They were violent. They were aggressive towards the police. They were patently racist. There is nothing that can excuse their behaviour.

And yet it was also, frankly, absurd and deplorable that the statue of Winston Churchill should have been in any plausible danger of attack. It was outrageous that anyone could even have claimed that the statue needed protection. It was and is miserable to see his statue entombed in its protective sheath.

It is true that the monument has been covered up several times before, in anticipation of trouble, after consultation with the Mayor’s office and English Heritage, because the police believe that is the safest and simplest thing to do. But many people will look at that image and feel a sense of bewilderment.

Why attack Churchill? What has the world come to when one of this country’s greatest ever leaders – perhaps our greatest - has to be shielded from the wrath of the mob? We all understand the depth of feeling that has been exposed by the killing, in Minnesota, of George Floyd. No one who cares about this country can ignore the many thousands of people who have joined the Black Lives Movement to protest peacefully, as most of them have, in the last few days. It is no use just saying that we have made huge progress in tackling racism.

There is much more that we need to do; and we will. It is time for a cross-governmental commission to look at all aspects of inequality – in employment, in health outcomes, in academic and all other walks of life. We need to tackle the substance of the problem, not the symbols. We need to address the present, not attempt to re-write the past – and that means we cannot and must not get sucked into never-ending debate about which well-known historical figure is sufficiently pure or politically correct to remain in public view.

Where will it end? Are we supposed to haul down Cromwell who killed so many thousands of people in Ireland? What about Nelson and all the other innumerable reminders of this country’s imperial past? Take the case of Ayuba Suleiman Diallo, whose portrait hangs in Room 15 of the National Portrait Gallery. He was a native of the Gambia who was known and admired in C18 London as a translator of Arab texts. He was also, originally, a slaver himself. Does that mean he should be purged from the Gallery?

My point is that our history is immensely complex, and modern Britain is a product of a vast conglomerate of ideas and beliefs – not all of which look good in the light of today. Yes, Churchill expressed all sorts of views over his immense career – and bear in mind that he entered parliament under Queen Victoria and left it under Queen Elizabeth - which are totally unacceptable to modern ears.

As it happens, he generally changed with the times. He changed his view on India, and her capacity for independence; and whatever he may have said about Islam in the 1890s, he also built the Regent’s Park Mosque in the 1940s. And above all – as so many have rightly pointed out – it is the height of lunacy to accuse him of racism, when he stood alone against a racist tyranny that without his resistance would have overwhelmed this country and the rest of Europe.

He was a hero, and I expect I am not alone in saying that I will resist with every breath in my body any attempt to remove that statue from Parliament Square, and the sooner his protective shielding comes off the better.

It is not just that is wrong to destroy public property by violence. I am also extremely dubious about the growing campaign to edit or photoshop the entire cultural landscape. If we start purging the record and removing the images of all but those whose attitudes conform to our own, we are engaged in a great lie, a distortion of our history – like some public figure furtively trying to make themselves look better by editing their own Wikipedia entry.

Would it not be better and more honest to ask our children to understand the context, to explain the mixture of good and bad in the career of Churchill and everyone else? And rather than tear some people down, we should build others up, and celebrate the people who we in this generation believe are worthy of memorial. We have brilliant sculptors and artists. Why should they not be commissioned to make fitting additions to the landscape and cityscape? Take the great courtyard in the Foreign and Commonwealth office, where stone statues of British explorers and imperialists look down from the niches. Many of the niches are for some reason unfilled.

Rather than tear down the past, why not add some of the men and women – most often BAME – who helped to make our modern Commonwealth and our modern world? Isn’t that a more cheerful approach?

This new vogue for politically correct iconoclasm is not just dispiriting, and unfair, and often ahistorical. Worst of all, it is a total distraction from the matter in hand. It does nothing for BAME people to go around mutilating statues, or campaigning against this or that cultural relic. There are far greater and more important battles.

In the last ten years we have seen a big expansion in BAME students at our universities; more young black kids excelling in the most challenging subjects at school. The struggle now is to turn that into the universal narrative and the universal expectation – a story of success and not discrimination. That means taking seriously the serious points that are raised by the marchers. It means addressing racism and discrimination, and stamping it out.

But it does not mean wasting time in delectable academic disputation about the life and opinions of every historical personality currently immortalised in bronze or stone.

Let’s fight racism, but leave our heritage broadly in peace. If we really want to change it, there are democratic means available in this country – thanks, by the way, to Winston Churchill.

Did he really say all that, I wonder who wrote that for him.

I would simply say that for anyone who applies logic such that they compare a slave trader with Winston Churchill and arrives at an anti-Churchill position is, by implication, pro Nazi.

It is not a form of logic I subscribe too but very much feeds those who use it with their own medicine.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

Mice is to trolling what John Inman was to weight lifting - a less accurate description of a fellow member would be hard to imagine.

😂

[Rewulf]

50 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But that was always going to be the case, I'm not condoning the behaviour of anyone acting illegally but if I was FORCED to "choose" between a group of people standing for the eradication of racial prejudice and discrimination or a group standing for it's continuation, then for me personally there is no choice to be made, it's a given.

Are we talking about the same situation ?
Its not a binary choice like that, and I really cant be bothered to explain it to you ..again.

44 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Did he really say all that, I wonder who wrote that for him.

Therein lies your problem, you dont know who Boris Johnson  is.
Youve simply let your favoured media give you the information it chooses to.

Educate yourself, and by that I dont mean by reading the guardian, know your enemy, if you will.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Are we talking about the same situation ?
Its not a binary choice like that, and I really cant be bothered to explain it to you ..again.

Therein lies your problem, you dont know who Boris Johnson  is.
Youve simply let your favoured media give you the information it chooses to.

Educate yourself, and by that I dont mean by reading the guardian, know your enemy, if you will.

There you go again, you really can't help yourself can you 🙄

[Rewulf]

35 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

There you go again, you really can't help yourself can you

I dont let it worry me, whatever it is you mean.
You just keep going off on tangents that boggle my head, so once again , Im done 

[clangerman]

took the name down from the colston hall this morning colston tower lost their name colston school thinking of changing their name all we need now is the usual farce of pretending the past never happened and the mayors stupid idea of a activist statue to go up 

[Raja Clavata]

On 13/06/2020 at 09:11, 12gauge82 said:

Just watched a unedited copy of GF death and I've got to say, it's one of the most shocking uses of force I've ever seen and I've seen more than a few.

After watching it I can see why people are angry, however, I think it shows the wider problem, for too long in the UK we've had a government push at making legislation that treats people differently based on race, with extra protection for minority's, a constant flow pushed at government level, supported by mainstream media that there's a massive problem with racism in this country, there simply isn't, anyone who claims there is only needs to look at how poorly the likes of the BNP does at elections, there is absolutely no tolerance of racism in the UK and yet solutions to a race problem that doesn't exist are constantly rammed down everyone's throats, no wonder minority's are paranoid, they must feel the rest of society goes home at night scheming how they can get rid of them. To then watch that shocking killing of GF (scumbag or not) they see the murder of a black man by a white supremacist, where as everyone else (without evidence to the contrary) rightly sees a case of police brutality, nothing more, nothing less and certainly not because he was black (although I'm happy to accept it could be, if evidence comes to light), the fact is, racism in the UK is very, very rare, much less systematic racism, where a UK cop would murder someone and think they could get away with it. In short this reaction has been caused by the deep state, pushing a hard left agenda for years, totally against the wishes of the vast majority of the UK population, they are causing division based on the colour of our skin, the whole situation is ludicrous.

Nicely written, though I suspect Bumble would have something to say about the paragraphing.

Since nobody has challenged this, I will. This is wrong on the statement highlighted and then you go on to politicise the whole thing. I mean, why stop there, may as well throw some religion in for good measure too.

People on this thread have cited racist behaviour against them, at least one claims to have been subjected (I'll avoid the word victim) to a racial assault.

That aside, if I told you I have traveled the world extensively but never seen a polar bear in the wild, therefore I assert they do not exist - then what would you think of that?

Edited June 15, 2020 by Raja Clavata
wild not wide

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

Quote

I see self fulfilling prophecies which focus on personal negative outcomes as defeatist and a form of self-victimisation.

I agree, but this should be on the Brexit thread.

Quote

But that was always going to be the case, I'm not condoning the behaviour of anyone acting illegally but if I was FORCED to "choose" between a group of people standing for the eradication of racial prejudice and discrimination or a group standing for it's continuation, then for me personally there is no choice to be made, it's a given.

I would take some convincing that the BLM mob have those as their aims. Worthy causes, but they are in it for the buzz of demonstrations. There might be one or two genuine protesters, but their overall conduct suggests that it is just a few.

[bluesj]

5 hours ago, discobob said:

If it does happen - that will cause an utter catastrophic reaction by the powers that be that will end up with BAU becoming fact - rather than all lives matter and all people are equal

I can see in america before long the cops will not be able or willing to do anything to stop crime of those suspected of crime black white or sky blue pink. why as a cop would you put your self in a position where if someone kicks off and you do any thing to stop it  even if it is with in the rules you are hung out to dry and it will come to the uk.

How haven't protest group such as blm worked out that kicking off or allowing them selves to be linked with those that kick off in their name just rubs people up the wrong way and they just shut down to anything you have to say.  

[bruno22rf]

Ultimately what this country needs is a leader with balls - the ridiculous Cummings affair has castrated Boris and turned his reputation into a comics fodder. Years of Yoghurt Knitting, sexally self sufficient tree huggers have beaten us to a pulp with their being offended by life itself. Change, both violent and dramatic, needs to come or we are all ****** - cannot even say what I want despite millions dying for our freedom of speech - not the Mods fault - musn't offend anybody.