Wild Justice Judicial review.

[Scully]

According to an article in the latest CA magazine, a writer claims that the best publicity for fieldsports Is almost no publicity at all. 

[mick miller]

24 minutes ago, Scully said:

According to an article in the latest CA magazine, a writer claims that the best publicity for fieldsports Is almost no publicity at all. 

Hasn't worked out very well so far has it?

[harkom]

7 hours ago, Rob85 said:

If that's the case surely he's in conflict of interest and shouldn't have anything to do with the legal proceedings? Of if the case goes wild justices way then the likes of BASC should have an avenue of appeal because it could be demonstrated that there may have been underhand dealings by Mr juniper to sabotage the case in favour of wild justice.

Well, good luck with that approach.

I think that the majority of the shooting&fishing fraternity  do not realise  that the hierarchy in these departments/quangos or whatever their name, is now predominantly ruled and run by the anti-fieldsport types, their appointment having been proposed and endorsed by like minded friends and colleagues in government office, civil service, university, etc. For those who may have the qualifications for middle management and field work in the these organisations the chances of their gaining a position within them is remote - unless they show subservience to the agenda of those now running these outfits.

The days  when the likes of NT, NE, SNH et al were largely staffed by ex-military personnel and lower orders of the landed gentry are long gone. These organisations are now "run" by activist types , appointed by the "liberal left" intelligentsia (latter word a misnomer I know ) who , by and large are bereft of any understanding of rural culture and associated historical sporting "rights". The middle ground for policy in these management structures has been hijacked by the very vocal "Anti-fieldsport" people and the neutral minority within have either retired, resigned or remained shtum for personal reasons.

Yeah, I know this will receive the usual comments of " Conspiracy, Conspiracy", " another nutter on a rant"..... but really you should do some homework on the problems facing field sports and once you have recognised a few...then start joining up the dots.

[mick miller]

12 minutes ago, harkom said:

Well, good luck with that approach.

I think that the majority of the shooting&fishing fraternity  do not realise  that the hierarchy in these departments/quangos or whatever their name, is now predominantly ruled and run by the anti-fieldsport types, their appointment having been proposed and endorsed by like minded friends and colleagues in government office, civil service, university, etc. For those who may have the qualifications for middle management and field work in the these organisations the chances of their gaining a position within them is remote - unless they show subservience to the agenda of those now running these outfits.

The days  when the likes of NT, NE, SNH et al were largely staffed by ex-military personnel and lower orders of the landed gentry are long gone. These organisations are now "run" by activist types , appointed by the "liberal left" intelligentsia (latter word a misnomer I know ) who , by and large are bereft of any understanding of rural culture and associated historical sporting "rights". The middle ground for policy in these management structures has been hijacked by the very vocal "Anti-fieldsport" people and the neutral minority within have either retired, resigned or remained shtum for personal reasons.

Yeah, I know this will receive the usual comments of " Conspiracy, Conspiracy", " another nutter on a rant"..... but really you should do some homework on the problems facing field sports and once you have recognised a few...then start joining up the dots.

No, not nutty. About right. Some might say the same can be said of the organisations that have appointed themselves as our collective representatives too.

[islandgun]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

According to an article in the latest CA magazine, a writer claims that the best publicity for fieldsports Is almost no publicity at all. 

We need to be pointing out the positives of fieldsports and land management to counter the arguments of those that use their their influence to oppose it. If this doesn't happen then they will succeed in in demolishing shooting bit by bit until the only shooting left, will be clays and licensed "bag limit" vermin.

Edited June 24, 2020 by islandgun

[Scully]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Hasn't worked out very well so far has it?

Perhaps he meant no publicity is better than bad publicity, which is the only type shooting seems to attract. 

[scolopax]

Just to show the gloating from the other side is a direct copy from Mark Avery’s blog:

 

BASC obviously feels that it is in a corner and simply resorts to nastiness.

Apparently crowdfunding for a legal case to challenge government’s inaction on environmental protection is ‘extremism’ in BASC’s view. Really? Using the law of the land is extremism?

I don’t know whether we in Wild Justice will win or lose, but it’s clear that we have won so far – DEFRA were forced to agree that there was more that they could do on gamebird releases, DEFRA was forced by the Wild Justice case to do a review of gamebird impacts on nature conservation (which we have not yet seen) and a judge has ordered that the Wild Justice case should be heard before the end of October so that if it were successful any implications would be known in time to be implemented before the 2021 shooting season. None of this BASC wanted, all of this BASC sounded off about, but all of it is happening. I would think that DEFRA is rather embarrassed to have the likes of BASC associated with them (and if they aren’t, then they should be).

That’s the thing about the law, all the bluster in the world is unlikely to influence the result.

It will be an interesting court room if, by then, we are allowed to attend in person. I look forward to seeing DEFRA cuddling up to the NGO, BASC and the Countryside Alliance on one side of the court. Social distancing from the very rude BASC will not depend on the state of coronavirus. But if we can’t all get into court then watching the case by videoconference will be interesting too. Thay might get quite an audience.

I’m not sure whether I hope that BASC is spending loads of its members’ money or very little of it, but so far it’s difficult to see that they are getting any value at all out of it.

I spent half an hour or so yesterday evening talking to a journalist in Chicago about our case. It’s always entertaining to hear Americans’ complete astonishment when the British shooting norms are described. I think many Americans have a positive feeling towards hunting and they imagine that game shooting is rather similar, so when they hear that every year 47 million Pheasants are released into an area about the size of Michigan they are rather gobsmacked. And then when they realise that the British form of hunting involves waiting for captive-bred Pheasants to be driven towards a line of stationary guns who blast away at them you can hear their jaws drop even 4000 miles away. And when they hear that you don’t need a shooting licence in the UK, just a gun licence, to be able to shoot ‘game’ within season if you have the landowner’s permission they are amazed. And when they hear that there are no limits set on how many non-native gamebirds can be released or how many an individual can shoot they are similarly stunned.

BASC and others will be interested to read the next two Wild Justice newsletters (hint, they will get a name check). The first will go out tomorrow as we are putting it together now, the second is likely to go out next Tuesday or so, as we are writing that one now too. BASC members might like to subscribe to get a more rounded view of what is happening in the world and if they do they will be very welcome. Click here to subscribe.

[greylag]

Don't subscribe, it's what they want you to do,giving them more publicity.

[Zetter]

Pretty sure they "American Journalist"  astonishment would be tempered a bit after a quick youtube trawl on Pheasant shoot state side. I seem to remember a while back being linked one video where they were literally taking the birds out of cages on high towers and lobbing them in the direction of the guns. 

Not saying its all like that but I dont think you would see anything like that on any reputable shoot over here. 

[Farmboy91]

10 minutes ago, Zetter said:

Pretty sure they "American Journalist"  astonishment would be tempered a bit after a quick youtube trawl on Pheasant shoot state side. I seem to remember a while back being linked one video where they were literally taking the birds out of cages on high towers and lobbing them in the direction of the guns. 

Not saying its all like that but I dont think you would see anything like that on any reputable shoot over here. 

From what I've seen online if you was to shoot pheasants over here the way they do stateside you'd soon be asked to leave any reputable shoot. 

[wymberley]

"I’m not sure whether I hope that BASC is spending loads of its members’ money or very little of it, but so far it’s difficult to see that they are getting any value at all out of it."

Well, that takes the biscuit! He's slagging off BASC because they're doing what they're supposed to whereas WJ are spending everyone else's money from wherever they can acquire it just as long as it's not out of their own pockets.

[NatureBoy]

"American journalist"? Yeah right! Sounds just like a rehash, but directed at game shooting of the "met a shooter on the train" (remember him) GL comments, spiel he used before and wanted folks to believe. Samo! Unless he was a shooting jurno, anyone with no knowledge of countryside or shooting would be baffled /bored by him ranting on about a subject he has limited knowledge of!

When farm/shoot near me hosts/ put on day for yank friends/farmers/ preachers it's the opposite to his spiel.. wouldn't say they are the safest days 😉 but they are in ore of driven shooting, the drives, beating team and especially the dog work we enjoy. Envious of our shooting/game diversity on the day and the amount work/banter that goes in to make it happen, seeing the habitat that's been created and how other wildlife benefits from it . . . . Some are so used to carrying a gun/guns/hand gun (men and women) every day and are amazed at the hoops we have to jump through to have/carry/keep guns. I wonder if Avery has even thought how it would be if it was so easy to get and carry a gun over here? . . . . Why should BASC be fearful of a name check by them!? Publicity! Unless they are directing there flock to target BASC as he/they seem to think DEFRA and NE are  in line with them. They will be looking to exploit anything neg about our orgs and us till this case is heard.     

As i say when trying to educate folk. We can show n tell by example the benefit to all wildlife and the economy from shooting, pest control and the conservation we do. We have nothing to hide!!!! Want nothing from them and have NO agenda. 

They/WJ (hen harrier obsessed) have nothing to show or any answers (say it's not there job to). Have limited knowledge, true facts or information. They have an agenda that is driven by anti shooting, land ownership and class ( like trying to drag us back a 150yrs). They need a largely urban bunch of folk with even less limited knowledge and facts to hate us! Who we are, what we do Where we live, what we own. Our Way of life. They will tell them, say and do whatever to try and achieve that! WHY? Because they need and want there MONEY!

They think and want them to believe shooting folk, country people and farmers can't be trusted to look after the countryside.  

We are practitioners/doer's with a lot of knowledge,fieldcraft and skills making a real difference for wildlife.

They are a bunch of single species obsessed, blinkered, agenda driven, angry shouty people. With a pair of binoculars they should use more, a tick sheet, dodgy graph and HUGE ego's!   

The big fella is bitter because his previous attempts to ban DGS etc have failed and his book is out of print. The special one is quiet because of neg publicity and some virus. The angry gal. Well she's just. Angry! 

It's a shame! The only winners will be Leigh Day!

 I hope the right people can see who is doing more for wildlife and conservation!    NB 

[greylag]

Perfectly put.👍

[enfieldspares]

The American shooting is known as Tower Shooting. 

https://youtu.be/hq9RKA91s4E

 

[Grandalf]

On 24/06/2020 at 18:41, harkom said:

Well, good luck with that approach.

I think that the majority of the shooting&fishing fraternity  do not realise  that the hierarchy in these departments/quangos or whatever their name, is now predominantly ruled and run by the anti-fieldsport types, their appointment having been proposed and endorsed by like minded friends and colleagues in government office, civil service, university, etc. For those who may have the qualifications for middle management and field work in the these organisations the chances of their gaining a position within them is remote - unless they show subservience to the agenda of those now running these outfits.

The days  when the likes of NT, NE, SNH et al were largely staffed by ex-military personnel and lower orders of the landed gentry are long gone. These organisations are now "run" by activist types , appointed by the "liberal left" intelligentsia (latter word a misnomer I know ) who , by and large are bereft of any understanding of rural culture and associated historical sporting "rights". The middle ground for policy in these management structures has been hijacked by the very vocal "Anti-fieldsport" people and the neutral minority within have either retired, resigned or remained shtum for personal reasons.

Yeah, I know this will receive the usual comments of " Conspiracy, Conspiracy", " another nutter on a rant"..... but really you should do some homework on the problems facing field sports and once you have recognised a few...then start joining up the dots.

I have been dealing with NE, and their predecessors,  on shoot licences for many years.   This post from harkom is absolutely spot on.   They are a totally different organisation from the one that I used to deal with and their staff have totally changed in their outlook on what they are trying to achieve.

Packham and his mates are very astute individuals who think out their moves carefully and after great deliberation.   If the shooting fraternity goes on acting the way that it is doing, and has done, so far, then we will loose.    It will be game shooting first, then grouse, followed by fowling.   Stalking might survive for a while due the massive increase in deer nationally and the governments plan to plant millions of trees over the next few years.   That will leave only vermin for crop protection and we have already seen the way that they attacked the GL.

We must all pull together instead of being so fragmented. 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Grandalf

[islandgun]

3 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

"American journalist"? Yeah right! Sounds just like a rehash, but directed at game shooting of the "met a shooter on the train" (remember him) GL comments, spiel he used before and wanted folks to believe. Samo! Unless he was a shooting jurno, anyone with no knowledge of countryside or shooting would be baffled /bored by him ranting on about a subject he has limited knowledge of!

When farm/shoot near me hosts/ put on day for yank friends/farmers/ preachers it's the opposite to his spiel.. wouldn't say they are the safest days 😉 but they are in ore of driven shooting, the drives, beating team and especially the dog work we enjoy. Envious of our shooting/game diversity on the day and the amount work/banter that goes in to make it happen, seeing the habitat that's been created and how other wildlife benefits from it . . . . Some are so used to carrying a gun/guns/hand gun (men and women) every day and are amazed at the hoops we have to jump through to have/carry/keep guns. I wonder if Avery has even thought how it would be if it was so easy to get and carry a gun over here? . . . . Why should BASC be fearful of a name check by them!? Publicity! Unless they are directing there flock to target BASC as he/they seem to think DEFRA and NE are  in line with them. They will be looking to exploit anything neg about our orgs and us till this case is heard.     

As i say when trying to educate folk. We can show n tell by example the benefit to all wildlife and the economy from shooting, pest control and the conservation we do. We have nothing to hide!!!! Want nothing from them and have NO agenda. 

They/WJ (hen harrier obsessed) have nothing to show or any answers (say it's not there job to). Have limited knowledge, true facts or information. They have an agenda that is driven by anti shooting, land ownership and class ( like trying to drag us back a 150yrs). They need a largely urban bunch of folk with even less limited knowledge and facts to hate us! Who we are, what we do Where we live, what we own. Our Way of life. They will tell them, say and do whatever to try and achieve that! WHY? Because they need and want there MONEY!

They think and want them to believe shooting folk, country people and farmers can't be trusted to look after the countryside.  

We are practitioners/doer's with a lot of knowledge,fieldcraft and skills making a real difference for wildlife.

They are a bunch of single species obsessed, blinkered, agenda driven, angry shouty people. With a pair of binoculars they should use more, a tick sheet, dodgy graph and HUGE ego's!   

The big fella is bitter because his previous attempts to ban DGS etc have failed and his book is out of print. The special one is quiet because of neg publicity and some virus. The angry gal. Well she's just. Angry! 

It's a shame! The only winners will be Leigh Day!

 I hope the right people can see who is doing more for wildlife and conservation!    NB 

Well said, If responsible land management/conservation is reliant on hope [and those three clowns] then the UK countryside is going to be ruined for many years. Who are the right people and who is drawing their attention to the issues ? 

[NatureBoy]

24 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Well said, If responsible land management/conservation is reliant on hope [and those three clowns] then the UK countryside is going to be ruined for many years. Who are the right people and who is drawing their attention to the issues ? 

Very True IG. That's it.They have no answers, do nothing but repeat a stream of negative bile about those that don't agree with them. From Keepers to the RSPB. They manage to find alleged cases of persecution whenever it suits them or there latest campain. They are activists! They have shown they want shooting gone! Not interested in anyone else, real conservation or a way forward. If we can see that surely DEFRA can. Lets hope the judges can!

DEFRA NE need more  good staff with a lot better knowledge of conservation, farming, the countryside and proper funding. Forward thinking farmers, keepers and shooters  are giving them plenty of info a willing to work with them. Trailing new environmental and conservation schemes and ideas (ELMS etc) to help them. They need to work with them, listen to them and how shooting and pest control plays a big part in that. Need to pay them for there results. One size fits all, when is a hedge not a hedge schemes don't work. If they want wildlife, we needed pest control! That includes all corvids on the existing GL. Game shooting helps conservation. Over all wildlife benefits from shooting.         

Interesting trial on at the moment in a scheme on one local farm on hare damage. Where they are fenced out there is a 6=7in difference  in crop height and noticeable differance in thickness. Does that mean more hares will be shot? NO! Will the farmer get paid for conserving them so well? Probably not! Hares can thrithe on game shoots. Result!          NB       

  

[islandgun]

9 hours ago, NatureBoy said:

Very True IG. That's it.They have no answers, do nothing but repeat a stream of negative bile about those that don't agree with them. From Keepers to the RSPB. They manage to find alleged cases of persecution whenever it suits them or there latest campain. They are activists! They have shown they want shooting gone! Not interested in anyone else, real conservation or a way forward. If we can see that surely DEFRA can. Lets hope the judges can!

DEFRA NE need more  good staff with a lot better knowledge of conservation, farming, the countryside and proper funding. Forward thinking farmers, keepers and shooters  are giving them plenty of info a willing to work with them. Trailing new environmental and conservation schemes and ideas (ELMS etc) to help them. They need to work with them, listen to them and how shooting and pest control plays a big part in that. Need to pay them for there results. One size fits all, when is a hedge not a hedge schemes don't work. If they want wildlife, we needed pest control! That includes all corvids on the existing GL. Game shooting helps conservation. Over all wildlife benefits from shooting.         

Interesting trial on at the moment in a scheme on one local farm on hare damage. Where they are fenced out there is a 6=7in difference  in crop height and noticeable differance in thickness. Does that mean more hares will be shot? NO! Will the farmer get paid for conserving them so well? Probably not! Hares can thrithe on game shoots. Result!          NB       

  

cheers NB, yes that sounds like a plan agri/field sport/environmental schemes, that benefit all, FWAG [farming and wildlife advisory group] were very active years ago do they still get any air time ?

[harkom]

22 hours ago, wymberley said:

"I’m not sure whether I hope that BASC is spending loads of its members’ money or very little of it, but so far it’s difficult to see that they are getting any value at all out of it."

Well, that takes the biscuit! He's slagging off BASC because they're doing what they're supposed to whereas WJ are spending everyone else's money from wherever they can acquire it just as long as it's not out of their own pockets.

It might be interesting to view the accounts - money IN and money OUT - of Wild Justice (if there are any).  

Pictures of  Doc Avery would indicate the need for substantial funding of grocery and bar bills 😂.

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, harkom said:

It might be interesting to view the accounts - money IN and money OUT - of Wild Justice (if there are any).  

Pictures of  Doc Avery would indicate the need for substantial funding of grocery and bar bills 😂.

Good post back along, by the way, as was Grandalf's response.

Although I have no idea of what Avery is on about when he says that BASC is turning nasty, are we getting somewhere at last? I can't wait until they turn absolutely barbaric - somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan.

[Mickeydredd]

On 24/06/2020 at 18:10, enfieldspares said:

Or is it the truth that who really benefits is the "big bag boys" over-saturating land with birds the practice of which they then seek to justify by that claim that it is all actually really about "food production"? For money can't be spent twice and money spent on this Judicial Review is money that couldn't somehow be found to be spent on a Judicial Review against medical input? Hmm. Indeed "cui bono"?

Aren't BASC simply interested parties in this case rather than anything else and therefore I doubt they will have spent much money at all.

[islandgun]

4 hours ago, harkom said:

It might be interesting to view the accounts - money IN and money OUT - of Wild Justice (if there are any).  

Pictures of  Doc Avery would indicate the need for substantial funding of grocery and bar bills 😂.

One thing for sure avery didn't get like that by being a vegan

[London Best]

39 minutes ago, islandgun said:

One thing for sure avery didn't get like that by being a vegan

Or by doing any work!

[old'un]

If you suffer from high blood pressure don’t read the posts on Avery’s blog, one of the latest is about “Two rare hen harriers disappear in suspicious circumstances” well the lynch mob have already decided on who’s to blame.

[islandgun]

40 minutes ago, old'un said:

If you suffer from high blood pressure don’t read the posts on Avery’s blog, one of the latest is about “Two rare hen harriers disappear in suspicious circumstances” well the lynch mob have already decided on who’s to blame.

 

I did go on that blog for a couple of weeks,  It was very clear that he is an egotistical, self promoting, hypocrite, ... much like packam  selling his £10,000 holidays cruising  the arctic, whilst maintaining his desire to save the planet 

Edited June 26, 2020 by islandgun