wymberley Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Recoil is complex because it depends on how you 'perceive' the event, which is more than just the energy - and includes how 'fast' that energy is transferred. My usual game load (in a light gun) is 26 grammes at a claimed 1450 fps (I had to look on manufacturers website). Recoil is perceived as low. My usual clays load is 21 grammes at a claimed 1425 fps. Recoil is perceived as low. Another brand clay load of 21 grammes at a claimed 1450 fps had a markedly higher perceived recoil I suspect that powder burn speed differences alter the perceived recoil. I would not wish to try 1700 fps in my light gun - it isn't what it is for, but would expect fierce recoil. What I am personally awaiting for game is a non toxic factory load of about 26 to 28 grammes, fibre/bio degradable wad, 12 bore, 2 1/2 (up to 67 mm) case that will perform similarly to a lead load of 26 to 28 grammes. (i.e. provide decent kills to about 40 yards). The price should be not significantly greater than lead (steel should be cheaper as gramme for gramme it is a cheaper metal). They should be usable in a standard UK 2 1/2" proofed gun without damage. A requirement for less than half choke is acceptable. A gun travelling at 16 ft/ sec is as much as you possibly want and even then not repeatedly/frequently. This is 7&1/2 lb gun with a 36g load with a 1500 ft/sec MV (round figures). Drop the load to 32g and a more comfortable 14 is obtained. For those who for some reason prefer a faster load then dropping down to 28g will keep the 14, but give the aforementioned 1700. Anyone with a 6 lb gun, 1 oz load with a MV of 1250 will live long and prosper at sub 13. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Recoil is complex because it depends on how you 'perceive' the event, which is more than just the energy - and includes how 'fast' that energy is transferred. My usual game load (in a light gun) is 26 grammes at a claimed 1450 fps (I had to look on manufacturers website). Recoil is perceived as low. My usual clays load is 21 grammes at a claimed 1425 fps. Recoil is perceived as low. Another brand clay load of 21 grammes at a claimed 1450 fps had a markedly higher perceived recoil I suspect that powder burn speed differences alter the perceived recoil. I would not wish to try 1700 fps in my light gun - it isn't what it is for, but would expect fierce recoil. What I am personally awaiting for game is a non toxic factory load of about 26 to 28 grammes, fibre/bio degradable wad, 12 bore, 2 1/2 (up to 67 mm) case that will perform similarly to a lead load of 26 to 28 grammes. (i.e. provide decent kills to about 40 yards). The price should be not significantly greater than lead (steel should be cheaper as gramme for gramme it is a cheaper metal). They should be usable in a standard UK 2 1/2" proofed gun without damage. A requirement for less than half choke is acceptable. Steel may be a cheaper metal than lead, however the process to make steel shot is they say much more expensive than to make lead shot due to the additional energy and process needs. So it is not a given that steel shot will be cheaper than lead shot depends on several factors not just the price of steel. take a read of this it details the pros and cons of lead vs steel. http://www.fourten.org.uk/IsSteelAnAcceptableAlternative1.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, wymberley said: Anyone with a 6 lb gun, 1 oz load with a MV of 1250 will live long and prosper at sub 13. The lightest gun I use (regularly) is 6 1/4 lbs, and I shoot 21 or 26 grammes at about 1450 fps. I'm living reasonably long (as is the gun), but not sure that the prosper bit works? 6 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said: So it is not a given that steel shot will be cheaper than lead shot depends on several factors not just the price of steel. Agreed, but in my view - once volume is up - it shouldn't be all that different (in the grand scheme of a cartridge retail price makeup). I can understand why bismuth and tungsten are expensive - low volume and very costly materials. Edited July 20, 2020 by JohnfromUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: The lightest gun I use (regularly) is 6 1/4 lbs, and I shoot 21 or 26 grammes at about 1450 fps. I'm living reasonably long (as is the gun), but not sure that the prosper bit works? Agreed, but in my view - once volume is up - it shouldn't be all that different (in the grand scheme of a cartridge retail price makeup). I can understand why bismuth and tungsten are expensive - low volume and very costly materials. Which costs more, the super dooper fast 36g or the moderate 28g? For info, your 21g are sub 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just a thought ! If Lead is such an environmentally and health hazard , what will we be doing with all the scrap batteries from electric cars ? Presently , many scrap batteries are recycled by a company in Derbshire and the Lead ingots sold to Gamebore to manufacture lead shot . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Salopian said: Just a thought ! If Lead is such an environmentally and health hazard , what will we be doing with all the scrap batteries from electric cars ? Presently , many scrap batteries are recycled by a company in Derbshire and the Lead ingots sold to Gamebore to manufacture lead shot . I think most (all?) electric car 'traction' batteries are Lithium Ion based (i.e. no lead) technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 3 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: I think most (all?) electric car 'traction' batteries are Lithium Ion based (i.e. no lead) technology. To digress, as lithium is notoriously difficult to extinguish when burning - dry powder does it - and with several million vehicles on the road all powered by it shortly has anyone asked the fire brigades how they're going to play it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 Into the future ................ the year is 2030 the shooting organisations are unable to continue to offer insurance due to the ever increasing cost, due to the rise in claims as steel shot became mandatory as a consequence of the voluntary ban. Insurance claims spiral due to gun damage, personal injury due to ricochete, repetitive strain injuries due to high recoil and dental claims. Then the need for a sustainable cartridge, so they move to gold shot, nearly twice as dense as lead, but inert and truly a sustainable cartridge as at the end of a days shooting those taking part use their metal detectors to recover the gold shot. We look back and remember with fond affection the days of lead shot, just like we do today the days of pistol ownership and self loading rifles. RIP lead shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: The wildfowlers have already crossed this hurdle - and from what I read on these forums there are a lot of people who are quite comfortable with their new loads, which is good. But they are slightly different in tending to have large capacity hardware - and many are also keen, knowledgeable and 'experimental' home loaders, so have developed their own specialised ammunition. Whether they have accepted some performance 'shortfall' and altered their 'discretion' on long shots - I don't know, but I suspect that the 'culture' of responsibly making humane shots is strong in wildfowlers - and common sense is used. One factor to consider is that as homeloaders the cartridges are not for sale and they can (safely) exceed CIP regulations and folow SAAMI regulations which does provide a noteable advantage in steel. Until those CIP regulations are changed, no european or british cartridge manufacturer is going to be able to produce a 1oz 1600ft/sec steel load as they are limted to 1400fps in 12 bore and 1350fps in 20 bore. https://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/ciptexts/decision-xxxii-45-0-en.pdf Edited July 20, 2020 by Stonepark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 20, 2020 Report Share Posted July 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, Stonepark said: One factor to consider is that as homeloaders the cartridges are not for sale and they can (safely) exceed CIP regulations and folow SAAMI regulations which does provide a noteable advantage in steel. Until those CIP regulations are changed, no european or british cartridge manufacturer is going to be able to produce a 1oz 1600ft/sec steel load as they are limted to 1400fps in 12 bore and 1350fps in 20 bore. https://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/ciptexts/decision-xxxii-45-0-en.pdf Indeed was this not the reason the first of the eley lightning steel cartridges were recalled back in 2013 they did not comply with CIP. http://www.shootclayforum.com/topic/7141-urgent-warning-eley-steel-cartridges/ https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/253354-eley-withdrawing-lightning-shells/?ct=1595273536 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harkom Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 18/07/2020 at 19:54, holloway said: I am sure that inside 5 years wads will become available On what evidence ? Come on do tell ! We are all agog to hear this stunning information. ...(or are you talking through your exhaust?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 3 hours ago, harkom said: On what evidence ? Come on do tell ! We are all agog to hear this stunning information. ...(or are you talking through your exhaust?) Optimism . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 26 minutes ago, holloway said: Optimism . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, wymberley said: yes i know not at all fashionable on this forum.!! but it works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, holloway said: yes i know not at all fashionable on this forum.!! but it works for me. It was a brilliant, funny response. Glass half full folk are more often than not happy folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry2016 Posted July 21, 2020 Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) On 20/07/2020 at 18:12, rbrowning2 said: Into the future ................ the year is 2030 the shooting organisations are unable to continue to offer insurance due to the ever increasing cost, due to the rise in claims as steel shot became mandatory as a consequence of the voluntary ban. Insurance claims spiral due to gun damage, personal injury due to ricochete, repetitive strain injuries due to high recoil and dental claims. Then the need for a sustainable cartridge, so they move to gold shot, nearly twice as dense as lead, but inert and truly a sustainable cartridge as at the end of a days shooting those taking part use their metal detectors to recover the gold shot. We look back and remember with fond affection the days of lead shot, just like we do today the days of pistol ownership and self loading rifles. RIP lead shot. But we are still shooting ........ and that is the point. Edited July 21, 2020 by Terry2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 14 hours ago, Terry2016 said: But we are still shooting ........ and that is the point. Or the very rich are 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clangerman Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 we maybe shooting but future generations won’t even be allowed to own firearms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardigun Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 Harkom, There is a website called "Clay and Game" which advertises Steel shot in all sizes, re-cycleable cup wads in lots of sizes, which should enable you to reload sustainable ammo. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, cardigun said: Harkom, There is a website called "Clay and Game" which advertises Steel shot in all sizes, re-cycleable cup wads in lots of sizes, which should enable you to reload sustainable ammo. Hope this helps. Yep they do but have you seen the price up to £210 for a thousand wads makes for expensive shooting and none in 28ga, thanks but I will stick with lead shot fibre wads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardigun Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 Yes, they are expensive, but I make it £168 for 1000 wads, to load 31gms steel. Ordinary fibre wads for lead aren't free ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor O'Gorman Posted July 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 Perhaps a pigeonwatch forum member might consider participating in one of BASC's sustainable ammunition days and then report back to the forum on how it went? The next event is on Friday 31 July and Saturday 1 August at Dovey Valley Shooting Ground in Wales. To book your place visit: https://events.basc.org.uk/events/try-sustainable-ammunition/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243deer Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 15 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Perhaps a pigeonwatch forum member might consider participating in one of BASC's sustainable ammunition days and then report back to the forum on how it went? The next event is on Friday 31 July and Saturday 1 August at Dovey Valley Shooting Ground in Wales. To book your place visit: https://events.basc.org.uk/events/try-sustainable-ammunition/ Quote - All those attending should be experienced shots and are required to bring their own 12 gauge shotgun I use a .410 for ratting most of the time with 2 inch cartridges - indoors in barns - please let me know when a suitable day has been arranged to try sustainable ammunition in this combination - along with the undoubtedly expensive PPE I would have to wear to avoid the ricochets - thanks in advance Connor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrowning2 Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 1 hour ago, cardigun said: Yes, they are expensive, but I make it £168 for 1000 wads, to load 31gms steel. Ordinary fibre wads for lead aren't free ! Indeed, but they are around £25 per 1000 that’s a very very big difference in my comprehension and both still need an over powder card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted July 23, 2020 Report Share Posted July 23, 2020 21 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said: Perhaps a pigeonwatch forum member might consider participating in one of BASC's sustainable ammunition days and then report back to the forum on how it went? The next event is on Friday 31 July and Saturday 1 August at Dovey Valley Shooting Ground in Wales. To book your place visit: https://events.basc.org.uk/events/try-sustainable-ammunition/ Could you please let me know when you’re having one in Hampshire please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.