An example of why COVID infections are on the rise.

[Newbie to this]

I pretty certain that I heard on the news recently, that someone who hadn't left their house or come in contact with anyone face to face for months, caught it.

That could only be through someone delivering the virus so to speak to their house.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Newbie to this said:

I pretty certain that I heard on the news recently, that someone who hadn't left their house or come in contact with anyone face to face for months, caught it.

That could only be through someone delivering the virus so to speak to their house.

I did a bit of a 'Google' before posting.  I couldn't find any documented example, but I did find loads of reports saying that whilst theoretically possible, it is a low risk. 

It reduces risk still further if you quarantine post (or iron urgent paper letter items) and wash hands after handling, but risk is probably higher on chilled foods, milk bottles/cartons etc which have multiple handling, fast distribution, possibly plastic packaging and chilled damp storage.  It seems that scientists agree it can survive, but the transfer to the item, remin viable on the item through transport and handling, then transfer to the recipient, then to have a sufficient viral load to actually infect the recipient all make it a low risk.

When locals to me got ill, local public health officials got involved and traced the source to a restaurant/pub where other customers had been infected and two staff (no symptoms) tested positive.  I think they do try to investigate the source of infection - as well as possible onward transmission (track and trace).  The latter seems to struggle.

[treetree]

 

So you are asking me to fundamentally change the way I live my life on the basis of 'common sense'. What about science? Please show me the randomised control tests that show that a bit of cloth or the cheap masks people are wearing are effective

9 hours ago, ordnance said:

 

 

 

would you get up close and personal with someone that had the flu. 

No, not if I knew they had the flu, but we're not being told to keep away from ill people, we're being told to keep our distance from perfectly healthy people who have no symptoms of anything.

Edited October 24, 2020 by treetree

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, treetree said:

from perfectly healthy people who have no symptoms of anything

That is the way a significant number of Covid infected people appear - and almost everyone infected appears for the first couple of days (before symptoms show) - during which time they are shedding (= potentially spreading) the virus.

One of the major differences in Covid to most other viruses is that people can (and do) spread before they are aware they are infected.

 

[Newbie to this]

37 minutes ago, treetree said:

Please show me the randomised control tests that show that a bit of cloth or the cheap masks people are wearing are effective

It doesn't exist, it's just a 'make it look like we are doing something' method.

But that being said although not 100% effective, they must reduce the risk (when used correctly), even if it is only slightly.

I do not want to wear a mask, but I do because it is the law at the moment. If it makes people feel safe and gets them out, and in turn the economy moving, surely it is a good 'bad' thing.

[treetree]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is the way a significant number of Covid infected people appear - and almost everyone infected appears for the first couple of days (before symptoms show) 

 

How can you prove that? How do you not know that the vast majority have it and remain asymptomatic, bot knowing they even had it?

Your method of dealing with it involves treating every single person as if they are ill. Why not just ask the vulnerable to shield so the rest can get on with trying to salvage whats effect of the economy

[JohnfromUK]

38 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

But that being said although not 100% effective, they must reduce the risk (when used correctly), even if it is only slightly.

I do not want to wear a mask, but I do because it is the law at the moment. If it makes people feel safe and gets them out, and in turn the economy moving, surely it is a good 'bad' thing.

Entirely agree with all that.  The idea (I think) of the mast is to reduce the cloud of humidity/droplets projected - especially if someone coughs or sneezes.

Like you, I wear a mask when it is required.

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, treetree said:

How can you prove that?

Just read a bit - that part is very well documented

 

3 minutes ago, treetree said:

How do you not know that the vast majority have it and remain asymptomatic, bot knowing they even had it?

Because testing has show that the vast majority don't have it and haven't had it.  It has been shown that when people are infected there is a period (about 1 to 3 days) before symptoms appear but their throat/nasal samples carry the virus.  It is from nose/throat that transmission through breath/cough etc (which is reckoned to be the biggest transmission mechanism) occurs.

 

6 minutes ago, treetree said:

Why not just ask the vulnerable to shield so the rest can get on with trying to salvage whats effect of the economy

The vulnerable are mostly shielding (certainly in my area).  However - it is the less vulnerable who do much of the spreading - and it spreads to the vulnerable.

Why not do a bit of reading/research and you will see why the policies have been introduced.  No one - including the government wants to ruin the economy, but equally no one wants the NHS swamped, people dying for inability to get hospital beds, and lots getting a very unpleasant illness the risk of catching which can with some basic care and common sense be much reduced.

[Mice!]

30 minutes ago, treetree said:

How can you prove that? How do you not know that the vast majority have it and remain asymptomatic, bot knowing they even had it?

Your method of dealing with it involves treating every single person as if they are ill. Why not just ask the vulnerable to shield so the rest can get on with trying to salvage whats effect of the economy

I can't speak for the whole country obviously but I work in Barrow,  we are tested each and every week, if the vast majority were asymptomatic then we would know, where as it's the odd person every now and then.

Work have kept the 2m rule in place and with things on the rise said masks are to be worn when moving around site, those working in close proximity or  in enclosed spaces have been wearing masks since April, nobody likes wearing them but it's a precaution. 

I'd still say your at more risk in the pubs simply because you drop your guard and relax( and no masks until recently) you won't get close to me in work,  I'll wear a mask when shopping and like I've said elsewhere you use common sense when out and about. 

Do you really expect the government to say, right then all over 60s and anyone whose at risk,  from asthma upwards stay home?

[discobob]

2 hours ago, Mice! said:

Do you really expect the government to say, right then all over 60s and anyone whose at risk,  from asthma upwards stay home?

Well here in Wales they have forced everyone to stay home - were not even allowed to buy candles!!!

[southeastpete]

7 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Because a LOT of research worldwide has been done on spread mechanisms - and I don't believe a single case of transmission this way has ever been confirmed ....... whereas many many cases have identified and confirmed other transmission routes.

 

I think less likely on peper, but 72 hrs or longer on some (e.g. plastic, stainless steel) surfaces

 

I can't answer that, but some do, or quarantine post.

 

That is not the general view of the scientists, WHO etc - who look at these things carefully when looking at risks, and conclude post is 'possible' but low risk.

Well it can live up to 5 days on paper, and at least 24 hours on cardboard. Many envelopes have plastic, as well as parcel tape.

just because no one has proved they have got it from post doesn’t mean they haven’t. How many infection cases are there? How many have been investigated as to how they caught it?

if I handled my post, and then went to the shop on the bus, and then caught it, how would you possibly prove where I caught it?

and yea some people quarantine their post. For 5 days? I had a friend who was putting her post in the oven, but just because some are doing that, won’t stop potentially hundreds of others catching it through postal infection. 

[AVB]

6 minutes ago, southeastpete said:

Well it can live up to 5 days on paper, and at least 24 hours on cardboard. Many envelopes have plastic, as well as parcel tape.

just because no one has proved they have got it from post doesn’t mean they haven’t. How many infection cases are there? How many have been investigated as to how they caught it?

if I handled my post, and then went to the shop on the bus, and then caught it, how would you possibly prove where I caught it?

and yea some people quarantine their post. For 5 days? I had a friend who was putting her post in the oven, but just because some are doing that, won’t stop potentially hundreds of others catching it through postal infection. 

We give our post a quick spray of disinfectant. Probably overkill but I got into the habit of doing it when I lived in very unhygienic countries. 

[Mice!]

22 minutes ago, discobob said:

Well here in Wales they have forced everyone to stay home - were not even allowed to buy candles!!!

And? That's everyone,  not just a portion of the population,  and when was the last time anyone bought candles.

It makes me laugh when people say buying clothes is an every day need, same as food.

[blackbird]

Wales went into lockdown yesterday & today Wales v France international, all the youngsters will now congratulate around each other’s homes & get ****** watching the game as all the pubs are shut, you would think this Mark Dripford would have at least postponed the game.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by blackbird

[Demonic69]

So masks don't work apparently. That could save the NHS millions! No more doctors or nurses having to spend hours and hours in pointless masks. We could probably do away with gloves and hand washing too.

[Newbie to this]

43 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

So masks don't work apparently. That could save the NHS millions! No more doctors or nurses having to spend hours and hours in pointless masks. We could probably do away with gloves and hand washing too.

I think you will find a massive difference between a medical mask and one made from a bit of cloth. The two maks are not comparable.

We were asked not to buy medical masks as the NHS needs them. 

From memory the single use medical masks are good for viruses for around 15 minutes and the filtered are good for viruses for 4 hours and then need a filter change.

Not sure if the above times are correct but it is something along those lines.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Newbie to this

[discobob]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

And? That's everyone,  not just a portion of the population,  and when was the last time anyone bought candles.

It makes me laugh when people say buying clothes is an every day need, same as food.

That last part was meant to be irony - but we are locked down on a whole when rates in large parts of wales are far and below what is being experienced in other parts of the country.

But what is essential is all down to the person. For someone it may be buying a new colouring book for their child, clothing for a premature baby, a DVD player for a child (or even adult) who is having a complete and utter meltdown when theirs has broken due to a condition that they have. Have you seen the pictures of supermarkets in Wales??

Mind you - I can go to a bicycle shop and equip myself in MAMIL Lycra (now that wouldn't be a pretty sight 🤢) when my bike hasn't been out of the garage except for when I have been tidying it!!

Don't forget that we were not even given 24 hours notice on these draconian laws being implemented.

[JohnfromUK]

8 minutes ago, discobob said:

we are locked down on a whole when rates in large parts of wales are far and below what is being experienced in other parts of the country.

Slightly off topic, but I find it both rather petty and not al all helpful when the 4 countries all do different things.  It is the same virus, we have broadly similar NHS facilities, pressures and challenges, and similar risks.

It is sometimes said that the various devolved area leaders (Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster) do things differently 'just because they can'.

So far, although all have done things somewhat differently - the overall outcome has been very similar - but the different details in the rules make it hard for people to follow, and seem to achieve nothing!

Rant over.

[Mice!]

22 minutes ago, discobob said:

That last part was meant to be irony - but we are locked down on a whole when rates in large parts of wales are far and below what is being experienced in other parts of the country.

Sorry missed it 👍

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Slightly off topic, but I find it both rather petty and not al all helpful when the 4 countries all do different things.  It is the same virus, we have broadly similar NHS facilities, pressures and challenges, and similar risks.

It is sometimes said that the various devolved area leaders (Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster) do things differently 'just because they can'.

Certainly doesn't help, Scotland have a 5 tier ? Wales lockdown even though large areas are low, but I don't blame them, that's simple,  Wales is shut so no confusion. 

England and everywhere is different. 

[discobob]

16 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Slightly off topic, but I find it both rather petty and not al all helpful when the 4 countries all do different things.  It is the same virus, we have broadly similar NHS facilities, pressures and challenges, and similar risks.

It is sometimes said that the various devolved area leaders (Sturgeon, Drakeford and Foster) do things differently 'just because they can'.

So far, although all have done things somewhat differently - the overall outcome has been very similar - but the different details in the rules make it hard for people to follow, and seem to achieve nothing!

Rant over.

Totally agree with you - totally confusing - it doesn't help that we are right by the border - in fact there is a road not far away where one side is in Wales and the other is in England. Wales came out of lockdown later than the rest of the country, where I live has been in "local" lockdown for 3 weeks and are now in full lockdown again although my wife is currently in Chester - she has work there and while there is taking food to her parents who have been isolating since this has all started. Yesterday I got my hair cut - I had to wear a mask and a load of hair went down my mask and I nearly sneezed - my god I could have ended up in jail!!!!

For me, Drakeford has a Megalomaniac Messiah Complex, but I don't think that any leader has really come out of this looking good beyond the spin and the one sided support of our "free" press. Yesterday evening the news was totally sickening - and they never have anybody on their press conferences who challenges their actions.

Lets be straight - a large part of the increases in the casedemic now are from students but it is being twisted to take away our liberties. The trouble for Wales is that its assembly (I refuse to use the S word which translates to government) if lead by a  very socialistic party and supported by left wing nut jobs in Plaid Cymru

[greylag]

People must be looking at Wales thinking what on earth is going on.Boarders being patrolled ,people being stopped from travelling,supermarkets being stopped from selling everyday items.Drakeford and his cabinet are ruling with a big stick.People will only take so much.Of coarse we do not want this terrible pandemic to take control but people must be able to make decisions on their own.

[treetree]

2 hours ago, Demonic69 said:

So masks don't work apparently. That could save the NHS millions! No more doctors or nurses having to spend hours and hours in pointless masks. We could probably do away with gloves and hand washing too.

I think you'll find that the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence removed the requirement for surgeons to wear masks in theatre as 2 randomised control tests showed there were no benefits of wearing them, and in fact could actually increase risk of infection

[Dave-G]

If a shop is open and staffed for essential items it seems sensible to sell anything within.

 

[greylag]

Not in Wales.

Sense !!! I don't think so.

[captainhastings]

1 hour ago, greylag said:

People must be looking at Wales thinking what on earth is going on.Boarders being patrolled ,people being stopped from travelling,supermarkets being stopped from selling everyday items.Drakeford and his cabinet are ruling with a big stick.People will only take so much.Of coarse we do not want this terrible pandemic to take control but people must be able to make decisions on their own.

Was in aldi this morning and the middle ails are taped off. Makes my blood boil being dictated too like that