Time for independence?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Please don't attempt to bring any logical comments in here!

[Vince Green]

17 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Where does this come from? The people voted for Brexit, so they are to blame. CV19 is a worldwide problem, which no single country has come up with a 100% solution. Why blame Boris? Is he dishing out the medical advice? Is he solely responsible for the problems?

When Boris promised Brexit, some people stuck the boot in and have never forgiven him for delivering. A bit sad really.

I'm with you Gordon, its going to rain this afternoon, I suppose they will blame him for that too 

[Raja Clavata]

10 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

And if a rising China tells the Saudis to stop selling oil to you guys?  Who buys more, the England or China?  Are you going to roll out the in Tesla lithium battery powered tanks?  Granted I’m talking extremely  unlikely examples.  

Battlefield electrification is a big deal with a huge push (charge 🙂 ) currently. Something to do with future wars needing to be net zero, or at least offsetting carbon based on the destruction.

[Vince Green]

10 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

And if a rising China tells the Saudis to stop selling oil to you guys?  Who buys more, the England or China?  Are you going to roll out the in Tesla lithium battery powered tanks?  Granted I’m talking extremely  unlikely examples.  

They can't we run their army and air force (effectively), on contract of course but its our tanks etc and our expertise. Its the only reason they are still on the map and not a page in history.

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I cant think of a single negative to be honest, except that the EU will put every effort it can into screwing us. If anybody was in any doubt about brexit the way the EU has conducted itself in the negotiations should have said it all.

 

3 hours ago, button said:

100%

Crikey that's one nice bubble to be in.🤔

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

Where does this come from? The people voted for Brexit, so they are to blame. CV19 is a worldwide problem, which no single country has come up with a 100% solution. Why blame Boris? Is he dishing out the medical advice? Is he solely responsible for the problems?

When Boris promised Brexit, some people stuck the boot in and have never forgiven him for delivering. A bit sad really.

True the pandemic is a worldwide problem. The handling of it here is, to say the least, problematic. Lack of attention to detail is a BJ Characteristic and it's writ large in the UK response. Cameron and BJ (and the Tory party) will go down in history for Brexit. 

What Brexit and Covid throws into relief is, where does the Kingdom go with devolution? We can't carry on with the current arrangement of four nation states with one  being a combination of all of the others. 

If the reasons that England voted for Brexit are for greater accountability and independence (etc) then surely we would would want to afford the nation states the same opportunity?  Now must be the time to follow through on the Brexit pledge for UK independence to do the same for the nation states or at the very least to reconsider the structure of the union. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Something to do with future wars needing to be net zero,

Are you being serious ?
Where have you heard that ?

War tends to chuck the entire set of 'rules' out the window , and to consider climate or pollution in respect of plans to destroy another countries populace or infrastructure , let alone their ability to wage war, is naive in the extreme.

Can you envisage a conflict of any size based on consideration for the environment, really ?
As man is slaughtering another man , would he really be thinking about carbon emissions ?

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

If the reasons that England voted for Brexit are for greater accountability and independence (etc) then surely we would would want to afford the nation states the same opportunity?  Now must be the time to follow through on the Brexit pledge for UK independence to do the same for the nation states or at the very least to reconsider the structure of the union. 

If.They.Want.It.

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

 

If.They.Want.It.

? We just voted for it. The Nation States all want greater autonomy and are asking for it every week. Why would we have one rule for England and another for the Nation States?

[Raja Clavata]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Are you being serious ?
Where have you heard that ?

War tends to chuck the entire set of 'rules' out the window , and to consider climate or pollution in respect of plans to destroy another countries populace or infrastructure , let alone their ability to wage war, is naive in the extreme.

Can you envisage a conflict of any size based on consideration for the environment, really ?
As man is slaughtering another man , would he really be thinking about carbon emissions ?

If.They.Want.It.

The net zero comment was very tongue in cheek but battlefield electrification is very real. The US DOD is the largest single consumer of fossil fuels on the planet and when you consider that the fully accounted cost of 1 gallon of fuel in certain battlefield scenarios is over $400, coupled with certain "vehicles" returning less than 1MPG, it's not hard to see why it's deemed of interest and relevance.

And it's of course not just about the impact of waging a war, the capability to wage a war comes at huge financial and emissions cost, amongst many other things.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Raja Clavata
400 not 500

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, oowee said:

? We just voted for it. The Nation States all want greater autonomy and are asking for it every week. Why would we have one rule for England and another for the Nation States?

That isnt independence though is it ?

Local councils want more autonomy (this translates usually to more money) but does that mean they want to split from the UK ?

When it comes down to it , every region wants whats best for itself, but its OK the controlling party screaming for more 'power' to wield, but its the people they serve who count.
Do they want it ?
If Scotland (or far less likely ,Wales) vote for independence, let them have it.
Let them shoulder the expense of implementing it too.

15 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And it's of course not just about the impact of waging a war, the capability to wage a war comes at huge financial and emissions cost, amongst many other things.

The cost of waging war never seems to be a problem.

I understand what you mean though, but like I say, environmental impact is really not why electrification is being trialled.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, button said:

Anf if and it's a big if we had Scottish Independence it would never work with the SNP, they have already demonstrated from their time in Government what a shambles they are, their ideas are driven by emotions, take banning driven grouse shooting purely motivated by their dislike of what they perceive as a sport enjoyed by the upper class while they just ignore the economic benefits it brings, and then look at the position of the NHS in Scotland which to call shambolic is generous, botched legal cases, reports on grouse shooting, duelling the A9, they just demostrate that economically they have no idea! 

A tad harsh I feel, I enjoy the free parking! 🙂

[button]

12 minutes ago, Scully said:

A tad harsh I feel, I enjoy the free parking! 🙂

Not in Edinburgh! They couldn't run a bath!

[Scully]

48 minutes ago, button said:

Not in Edinburgh! They couldn't run a bath!

😀 Can’t say I’ve parked in Edinburgh. In some parts of the UK they even charge you for the parking discs which are given away free in most places! 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Scully

[discobob]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

? We just voted for it. The Nation States all want greater autonomy and are asking for it every week. Why would we have one rule for England and another for the Nation States?

This is the trouble - you are taking the words of politicians - which in Wales and Scotland are left wing - with Welsh Labour being supported by Plaid Cymru which gives them so much power for so little actual presence within the assembly. They have the ear of most of the press and news outlets and ram their view of the world down everybody's throats at every possibility. Think about what you have said occurred under the umbrella of Brexit - then multiply it by 10 and divide by .0001 and you will get to the point of what we experience in Wales. 

Plaid Cymru have that much power that if the election next year goes the same as previous, that even with the Welsh Labour being the major party, that the Plaid leader will be the first minister of Wales - we will be in Raving Monster Looney Party area's then.

Hopefully the Abolish party will make enough in roads to make them stop and think!!

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, discobob said:

This is the trouble - you are taking the words of politicians - which in Wales and Scotland are left wing - with Welsh Labour being supported by Plaid Cymru which gives them so much power for so little actual presence within the assembly. They have the ear of most of the press and news outlets and ram their view of the world down everybody's throats at every possibility. Think about what you have said occurred under the umbrella of Brexit - then multiply it by 10 and divide by .0001 and you will get to the point of what we experience in Wales. 

Plaid Cymru have that much power that if the election next year goes the same as previous, that even with the Welsh Labour being the major party, that the Plaid leader will be the first minister of Wales - we will be in Raving Monster Looney Party area's then.

Hopefully the Abolish party will make enough in roads to make them stop and think!!

I understand the point you are making but when we have established nation states they must have some measure of equality, with some sort of overarching UK Govt. Without it the operating shambles high lighted by covid is still there if less noticeable and likely to be more obvious with Brexit.

Rather than the current situation where there are 4 very unequal partners one of which holds the wallet Covid and Brexit are examples of how the current state of affairs is unsustainable. Maybe we need a number of federal states (London Scotland, Wales Manchester etc) with an overarching federal government.

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

I understand the point you are making but when we have established nation states they must have some measure of equality, with some sort of overarching UK Govt.

Pretty sure thats what we have now 

[discobob]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

I understand the point you are making but when we have established nation states they must have some measure of equality, with some sort of overarching UK Govt. Without it the operating shambles high lighted by covid is still there if less noticeable and likely to be more obvious with Brexit.

Rather than the current situation where there are 4 very unequal partners one of which holds the wallet Covid and Brexit are examples of how the current state of affairs is unsustainable. Maybe we need a number of federal states (London Scotland, Wales Manchester etc) with an overarching federal government.

What we need is a Welsh Office, A Scottish Office and an NI Office (but the Good Friday agreement might disallow the latter - dunno??) which all the MP's from those regions sit in. Get rid of Stormont and Welsh Assembly - One NHSS, one education policy.

Many people don't realize that these "parliaments" are actually making them poorer. I know in Wales the WA is funded from the Council Tax apparently!

[Vince Green]

Neither Wales nor Scotland would be capable of financial independence, so what sort of "independence" are they talking about? To me independent means not being dependent. Thats clearly not going to be possible.

[oowee]

30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Pretty sure thats what we have now 

What is the difference between the Govt of the UK and the Govt of England? Is the Nation state of Scotland more important (power and influence) than Greater London? What say for example does Scotland have in setting the Budget for defence?

This mix of powers for nation states without resolving the powers for the UK versus England is thrown into relief by Covid where we have different restrictions applying in different areas. Where the UK Govt declares lockdown with full furlough support from the UK Govt imposed nationwide. At a later date Wales declares lockdown without furlough support of the UK Government and threatens to impose a border. Manchester refuses to lockdown because of a lack of furlough support. Its all a bit of a mess.

This lack of separation and clarity of purpose for UK govt as opposed to English govt will become more important with time,  Brexit trade and post CEJU being the next big test.. 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by oowee

[AVB]

How about we do away with the labels of England, Wales, Scotchland and Northern Ireland and just call it the United Kingdom or Great Britain? Job done. 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, AVB said:

How about we do away with the labels of England, Wales, Scotchland and Northern Ireland and just call it the United Kingdom or Great Britain? Job done. 

We voted for Brexit. 

[Vince Green]

17 hours ago, NoBodyImportant said:

After one generation we were😁

  Because if you lose Scotland and Wales you would loose a lot of oil rights in the sea would you not? 

Its not Scotland's oil, virtually none of it is in Scottish waters. Its way out into the North sea in international waters  The idea its Scots oil is a rather fanciful idea that the Scots cling to because the oil companies use the port of Aberdeen. Not because its close to the oil fields but because it is a deep water harbour capable of building the rigs before they were assembled and towed out to into the North sea

[Gordon R]

Quote

 We can't carry on with the current arrangement of four nation states with one  being a combination of all of the others. 

Why can this not continue? At this moment in time, we have a useless SNP banging on about independence, in a rather poor attempt to deflect from their many, many shortcomings in running Scotland. 

Despite newspaper polls, I am not convinced Scotland would vote to leave. They have zero chance of joining the EU. Those who think it is possible need to see a doctor. Spain would veto it. Wales and especially Northern Ireland are very heavily reliant on subsidy.

Forget the tabloids, I do not wish to see the union broken up. I have many Scottish friends and my recent ancestry goes back to Ireland. It might not be perfect, but outside of the south east, the rest of us, including NI, Wales and Scotland, should be grateful for the financial aid.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Gordon R

[AVB]

27 minutes ago, oowee said:

We voted for Brexit. 

Yes we did. Like it or not the majority of the U.K. did vote for Brexit.  I am not sure what your point is. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

What is the difference between the Govt of the UK and the Govt of England? There is no government of England ?

Is the Nation state of Scotland more important (power and influence) than Greater London? No.What say for example does Scotland have in setting the Budget for defence? Why would it need to ? It doesnt have its own armed forces.

This mix of powers for nation states without resolving the powers for the UK versus England is thrown into relief by Covid where we have different restrictions applying in different areas. Where the UK Govt declares lockdown with full furlough support from the UK Govt imposed nationwide. At a later date Wales declares lockdown without furlough support of the UK Government and threatens to impose a border. Manchester refuses to lockdown because of a lack of furlough support. Its all a bit of a mess.
If its 'a bit of a mess' its because the devolved powers make it so, Wales wanted a lockdown so it can prove how much power and influence it has wrested from Whitehall on the matter.
Do you seriously believe that Scotland or Wales would be doing this sort of thing if it was run by a political party more sympathetic with this tory government.
Just political games where the people who voted for them take the brunt of their arrogance.

This lack of separation and clarity of purpose for UK govt as opposed to English govt will become more important with time,  Brexit trade and post CEJU being the next big test.. 
 

 

I often wonder if you would be so critical if it were a labour government , doing exactly the same things as the tories are.
If labour were in power, and the electorate voted to leave the EU , would they just ignore that vote ?
If labour 'followed the science' just like Boris has been forced to do , would they be wrong too ?
Is virtually every single European government wrong ?
After all , they have broadly all followed the same advice, and except for Sweden, all failed fairly badly in containing it.
Now, how do they back track out of it ?

I think your hatred of all things tory is blinding you to the reality.
If you were in power , what would you have done differently ?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Rewulf

[aldivalloch]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

Its not Scotland's oil, virtually none of it is in Scottish waters. Its way out into the North sea in international waters  The idea its Scots oil is a rather fanciful idea that the Scots cling to because the oil companies use the port of Aberdeen. Not because its close to the oil fields but because it is a deep water harbour capable of building the rigs before they were assembled and towed out to into the North sea

You need to go up to Aberdeen and tell the people about rigs being built there. They'll probably be as surprised to hear that as I am!