Electric car advice

[Raja Clavata]

Damn, I swear it was all this talk of EVs that just made me put down a deposit on a M2 Competition (Hockenheim Silver).

[Westward]

On 20/11/2020 at 18:28, Raja Clavata said:

Damn, I swear it was all this talk of EVs that just made me put down a deposit on a M2 Competition (Hockenheim Silver).

You could have chosen a  Porsche like this lucky couple: ‘Why did it take nine hours to go 130 miles in our new electric Porsche?’ | Money | The Guardian

 

[Centrepin]

If an electric car has a flat battery can you jump start it?

Just wondering 

[AVB]

40 minutes ago, Centrepin said:

If an electric car has a flat battery can you jump start it?

Just wondering 

Yes. 

[Morkin]

How do you jump start the electric car ? Do you just leave the jump leads on to move it,with a battery in the back seat?.All very confusing I'm keeping my trade bike I think 

[AVB]

1 hour ago, Morkin said:

How do you jump start the electric car ? Do you just leave the jump leads on to move it,with a battery in the back seat?.All very confusing I'm keeping my trade bike I think 

An electric car has, in addition to the 350 volt battery that drives the car, a standard 12 volt battery that powers the ancillaries. If this goes flat then it can be ‘jump started’ like any other car battery. 

[Morkin]

7 hours ago, AVB said:

An electric car has, in addition to the 350 volt battery that drives the car, a standard 12 volt battery that powers the ancillaries. If this goes flat then it can be ‘jump started’ like any other car battery. 

Thanks for that ,so how far ,miles does it go after jump starting it because that's what always concerned me if battery goes flat your stuck, but if you can jump start it like any other car no problem .good information and thanks

[hawkfanz]

if the 12volt battery only powers the ancillaries how does it manage to power the main drive motor?

[Westward]

Forcing everyone to switch to an EV under the current plan is going to cause chaos. Most EVs right now are used for local stuff like commuting - shopping - visiting etc. and only bought by people who can charge at home or work. It's easy in that type of situation to be smug about how green you are but you only have to watch a busy petrol/diesel filling station to wonder how we can possibly support large scale take up of EVs, especially when home charging is impossible for such a high percentage of households.

 £100 says the hopelessly ambitious 2030 date will slip by at least 10 years.

[udderlyoffroad]

9 minutes ago, Westward said:

Forcing everyone to switch to an EV under the current plan

 

10 minutes ago, Westward said:

£100 says the hopelessly ambitious 2030 date will slip by at least 10 years.

£100 says that you haven't read the plan.  It's a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles, not a compulsory switch to EVs for everyone.

There will still be millions of them running around on the roads after 2030.

 

9 hours ago, Morkin said:

Thanks for that ,so how far ,miles does it go after jump starting

 

6 hours ago, hawkfanz said:

if the 12volt battery only powers the ancillaries how does it manage to power the main drive motor?

0 miles, and it doesn't.

It is there power the ancillaries, as stated.   Think of it this way, things like wiper motors, airbags, heated seats etc are all already available off the shelf in 12v form, from a myriad of suppliers.  Why spend money on development of, say, a 350v wiper motor if you don't have to?

But, also, it's there as a safety device.  The large contactors (relays, if you will), that switch the high current on and off from the main drive battery, are switched via this 12v system.  Should you lose an argument with a tree in your EV, the fire brigade merely have to cut the 12v Negative cable, and the car should be completely electrically dead...

Yes, I know, contactors can welds themselves shut (that's why you use 2 in series), and batteries can be damaged, but still..

[figgy]

There will be changes in government and policies many times till 2939 where the can it will be firmly kicked further down the road.

Until recharging takes a few minutes like filling with petrol does it's a non starter.

[Stonepark]

20 hours ago, hawkfanz said:

if the 12volt battery only powers the ancillaries how does it manage to power the main drive motor?

When you charge the car the voltage  can be stepped up through transformers in the charger unit in the car or in the external charger depending on the technology being used (most are within the car).

Tesla's for instance have a 350volt battery pack and drive system.

 

Often the 12v batteries are a separate battery and charged from the main battery pack with a built in 12v battery charger just like charging battery in a normal  situation or an alternator like an ICE car.

[London Best]

How are Australians going to fill their Toyotas from a Jerry can of electricity in the outback?

[AVB]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

How are Australians going to fill their Toyotas from a Jerry can of electricity in the outback?

Are you really bothered as to how the Aussies do it? 

[London Best]

41 minutes ago, AVB said:

Are you really bothered as to how the Aussies do it? 

Couldn’t give a flying ****.

It was just a thought that occurred to me for yet another reason why EV’s are no use.

[Westward]

17 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

£100 says that you haven't read the plan.  It's a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles, not a compulsory switch to EVs for everyone.

Of course I understand the "plan", I just don't think the government has even started to think through the implications. It's just another of Boris's knee jerk moves to try and please a vocal minority - just as he's done repeatedly with the Covid restrictions.

As things stand, a large percentage of the population will not be able to switch to an EV, either for logistical or economic reasons. What are people to do if they can't afford an EV or can't charge it? What will happen to used car values and petrol/diesel prices when the great day comes.

I could go on all day about the impossibilities of the "plan" but I'll end by saying that I accept EVs are well suited to certain applications, but for most people there are too many downsides without several quantum leaps in battery technology.

 

[amateur]

1 hour ago, AVB said:

Are you really bothered as to how the Aussies do it? 

Won't they fit photoelectric cells?

[udderlyoffroad]

11 minutes ago, London Best said:

It was just a thought that occurred to me for yet another reason why EV’s are no use.

London Best old chap, I know you like a wind up (you professed as such recently).

But can you not see the parallel with people 120 years ago saying how these horseless carriages would never work, petroleum distillate was hard to obtain, whereas I can have fresh horses within the hour?

You're comparing a technology at its peak (ICE) with a new technology just barely getting going (EVs) - and yes I know, EVs are as old as horseless carriages themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I love an ICE, the smell of diesel in the morning smells like fun, and I regard the growl of a V8 as the music of my people.

But I'm not in denial that change is coming.  I don't actually approve of the governments 2030 ban, market forces would be sufficient in my view, but hey ho.

 

8 minutes ago, Westward said:

What are people to do if they can't afford an EV or can't charge it?

I'm of the view that the most 'green' thing to do would be to hang on to and properly maintain an ICE vehicle for as long as possible.

This attitude you see from some on here - "oh it needs new tyres, brake discs etc, I'm getting rid" is strange to me.

 

[London Best]

Udderlyoffroad,

I agree with every word of your last post.
Change is always coming, all around us. The status quo at the moment is that EV’s are shopping trolleys and useless to anyone who wants to travel anywhere there are no charging facilities.
EV’s may be coming as a regular thing, but fortunately I have just got my life in in time and won’t live to have to drive one. 

[Westward]

A huge advantage of ICE cars is that there are only 2 basic types of fuel and virtually every vehicle uses one or the other. Ultimately, for widespread acceptance, EVs need to adopt a universal standard battery which will fit any EV, is quick and easy to remove and can be home charged indoors or exchanged at filling stations. That means a battery that weighs no more than a bag of shopping and which is just as easy to carry. I would also want my EV to be supplied with at least one spare battery.

[oscarsdad]

48 minutes ago, Westward said:

A huge advantage of ICE cars is that there are only 2 basic types of fuel and virtually every vehicle uses one or the other. Ultimately, for widespread acceptance, EVs need to adopt a universal standard battery which will fit any EV, is quick and easy to remove and can be home charged indoors or exchanged at filling stations. That means a battery that weighs no more than a bag of shopping and which is just as easy to carry. I would also want my EV to be supplied with at least one spare battery.

Tens of years away. 30kwh battery is ~ 300kg. 100kwh which would give range of 200ish miles depending on vehicle and application is ~600kg. Lithium batteries will never get the energy density needed in your suggestion, we would need different cell chemistry which is a long way from industrialisation. 

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

Ultimately, for widespread acceptance, EVs need to adopt a universal standard battery which will fit any EV

Won't happen, and will stifle innovation, to boot.

 

1 hour ago, Westward said:

is quick and easy to remove and can be home charged indoors or exchanged at filling stations. That means a battery that weighs no more than a bag of shopping and which is just as easy to carry.

Dear god no, something with that energy density, being carried around by members of the public, and then charged *indoors*.  I don't think that's wise.  

This rapid swap-out battery idea has been tried, but has always proved compilcated/clunky to implement.  Indeed there's a currently a service in China where exactly this happens, fully automated, takes a few minutes, but you need to get out of your car, and I can't see it taking off, because of the cost and complexity of doing so, compared with fitting a few rapid chargers, and battery technology improving.

As for the crash safety with rapidly removable batteries...er...not sure how much our Chinese friends have tested that.

 

 

[Westward]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Dear god no, something with that energy density, being carried around by members of the public, and then charged *indoors*.  I don't think that's wise.  

This rapid swap-out battery idea has been tried, but has always proved compilcated/clunky to implement.  Indeed there's a currently a service in China where exactly this happens, fully automated, takes a few minutes, but you need to get out of your car, and I can't see it taking off, because of the cost and complexity of doing so, compared with fitting a few rapid chargers, and battery technology improving.

As for the crash safety with rapidly removable batteries...er...not sure how much our Chinese friends have tested that.

Okay, but how would you address the problems for people who can't park where they can charge their own vehicle or don't want to be held up for hours jockeying for a charging point in the services.

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

Okay, but how would you address the problems for people who can't park where they can charge their own vehicle or don't want to be held up for hours jockeying for a charging point in the services.

Or parked in a wood for a day’s stalking hundreds of miles from home?

[udderlyoffroad]

14 hours ago, London Best said:

Or parked in a wood for a day’s stalking hundreds of miles from home?

I've already addressed this, at some point range will have improved to cover the example you cited (200 miles each way, 400+ mile range from full).  Of course as previously stated, you will have left home with a full tank, the same as you would do with an ICE engine.  Or do you not 'fill up' the night before a big trip?  I'm certainly not advocating hanging round at motorway services in order to charge up.

 

16 hours ago, Westward said:

Okay, but how would you address the problems for people who can't park where they can charge their own vehicle

If there's a system of street lighting, there's the means to charge an EV.  On street charging isn't the technological challenge people seem to think it is, it's one of logistics, see @oowee posts in this thread.  You plug in and, fire up the relevant app on your phone and/or the car phones the mothership and you are subsequently billed for the privilege.  You do not need a physical connection back to your own house's electrical meter.

Unfortunately, unlike a lot of other countries, our public infrastructure in this country is in the hands of many different companies, so this won't be an easy logistical challenge to solve.  We can barely manage smart meters.

But can we please get away from this idea that those without a drive need to run an extension lead to their own car.  It's nonsense.

And for the moment at least, the Venn diagram of people who can afford an EV, and those without a drive has a very small intersection.  Of course, EVs come down in price and take up increases, this problem will need grasping by the short and curlies, with intervention from central government.  But don't try to make out that it's impossible, technologically it's long since been solved.

 

18 hours ago, Westward said:

or don't want to be held up for hours jockeying for a charging point in the services.

I'm not advocating this for anyone.  Range will increase to the point where provided you leave home with a full charge, any journey you could conceivably undertake within the UK, e.g. @London Best's scenario of driving 200miles to a stalk and back will not require charging.  I'm a misanthropic bu**er at the best of times, and my desire to hang around motorway services for 30mins for a rapidcharge is precisely zero.