Lead shot for live quarry - a five-year transition, not a one-year solution

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, 8 shot said:

Having spoken to a BASC rep this morning in a nutshell the transition from lead is solely about increasing the market of game in the UK and Europe. Is does seem to me Conor has gone a bit off script🤔

as suspected from day one then basc have removed the best tool for shooting pigeons solely to achieve their OWN aims obviously trying to throw game shooting under the bus blame wise now 

[Fellside]

22 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The GWCT reference was to the following 2015 paper from the 2014 Oxford Lead Symposium:

http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

For more information on the 2014 Oxford Lead Symposium and all the papers published see:

http://oxfordleadsymposium.info/

It is worth noting that the 50,000 - 100,000 figure and other estimates were quoted in a recent Defra press release about a two-year UK lead ammunition review:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-announced-to-phase-out-lead-ammunition-in-bid-to-protect-wildlife

The UK lead ammunition review will need to consider a complex mix of economics, technical factors and attitudes.  I think the review will provide opportunities for a rational assessment and positive solutions and after all, as conservationists, we are committed to further reducing the risks of lead ammunition to the environment, wildlife and human health.

That said, there is a key principle we must not lose sight of, that further restrictions on lead ammunition must not be imposed until effective and affordable types of sustainable ammunition are available in sufficient volumes to meet demand.

Ammunition manufacturers in the UK and abroad are developing new products but the amount of non-lead ammunition required for the UK and world-wide market with current production facilities is a significant challenge; especially with biodegradable wads in the mix.

 Conor,

I am well aware of where the estimate (50,000 to 100,000) originates. It is still an ‘estimate’ and relates to wildfowl not terrestrial fauna.
 

Further, the DEFRA press release was an extremely bias political stunt - to demonstrate strong favourability towards a lead ban. Ground preparation really.  Much of its quoted evidence lacked credibility as it shared a similar source to yours. It was primarily a hard sell to Jo public - hardly a balanced appraisal. It was also highly unfortunate (but not surprising) that there wasn’t any reply facility on that particular press page. I wonder why not.....?!
 

I’m afraid I can’t spend a great deal more time refuting the bad science behind this manoeuvre. I know that in your role you are tasked with peddling your ‘message’ and that must be tough. However, I don’t have to keep reading it and illustrating the obvious anymore, as unlike you I’m not getting paid for my time. 

Please don’t send me any more original or secondary source references - I am now patently aware of its likely value. No hard feelings. Over and out. 
 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I have read the latest comments in this and the other inter-related thread with interest. 

It is disappointing, but not surprising, that some continue to try and conflate any discussion about the evidence of the impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, environment and human health and the phase out of lead ammunition with BASC and accusations of capitulation by BASC and ridiculous conspiracy theories about BASC. 

However, the fact is that three things are happening.

Firstly, a public consultation has begun in the European Union on proposals to further restrict the sale and use of lead ammunition. If these proposals are implemented that would have an impact UK shooting given the EU is the main market for our shot game and for the trade in firearms and ammunition.

Secondly, in the UK, a two-year review of the evidence around lead ammunition is taking place, which may result in a public consultation on options for restrictions.

Thirdly, the UK shooting organisations are continuing to encourage a voluntary transition away from lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting by 2025.

As regards comments questioning the validity of the evidence of lead shot poisoning in wildfowl and other birds the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust have been autopsying dead birds and x-raying live birds captured over many years, as has been referenced in earlier comments.

Unfortunately, questions keep arising about compliance by us as shooters with the existing lead shot regs - for example up to 77% of ducks purchased from game dealers in England have been found to have been shot with lead as per studies published in 2012 and 2015. 

See:http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

Before anyone starts commenting that this was ages ago, I am reliably informed that more recent data shows that compliance has become even worse. 

This non-compliance with the law is almost certainly from inland duck shooting, both commercial and recreational, but not wildfowling. Clearly though the ducks are still finding a way to pick up pellets as they’re moving around the country, presumably from when they stop at inland ponds en route to our larger estuaries, or when coming in land to feed at night.

Many of the research papers identify lead pellets in the gizzard, and elevated lead levels in the blood (of live ducks) or liver or kidney (of dead ducks) so it is unlikely that the lead has come from other sources, but there will of course be exceptions to that. 

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have read the latest comments in this and the other inter-related thread with interest. 

It is disappointing, but not surprising, that some continue to try and conflate any discussion about the evidence of the impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, environment and human health and the phase out of lead ammunition with BASC and accusations of capitulation by BASC and ridiculous conspiracy theories about BASC. 

However, the fact is that three things are happening.

Firstly, a public consultation has begun in the European Union on proposals to further restrict the sale and use of lead ammunition. If these proposals are implemented that would have an impact UK shooting given the EU is the main market for our shot game and for the trade in firearms and ammunition.

Secondly, in the UK, a two-year review of the evidence around lead ammunition is taking place, which may result in a public consultation on options for restrictions.

Thirdly, the UK shooting organisations are continuing to encourage a voluntary transition away from lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting by 2025.

As regards comments questioning the validity of the evidence of lead shot poisoning in wildfowl and other birds the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust have been autopsying dead birds and x-raying live birds captured over many years, as has been referenced in earlier comments.

Unfortunately, questions keep arising about compliance by us as shooters with the existing lead shot regs - for example up to 77% of ducks purchased from game dealers in England have been found to have been shot with lead as per studies published in 2012 and 2015. 

See:http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

Before anyone starts commenting that this was ages ago, I am reliably informed that more recent data shows that compliance has become even worse. 

This non-compliance with the law is almost certainly from inland duck shooting, both commercial and recreational, but not wildfowling. Clearly though the ducks are still finding a way to pick up pellets as they’re moving around the country, presumably from when they stop at inland ponds en route to our larger estuaries, or when coming in land to feed at night.

Many of the research papers identify lead pellets in the gizzard, and elevated lead levels in the blood (of live ducks) or liver or kidney (of dead ducks) so it is unlikely that the lead has come from other sources, but there will of course be exceptions to that. 

So they are still claiming that 50,000 to 100,000 birds ( primarily wildfowl as I understand it ) are dying from ingesting lead shot. This is despite lead shot for fowling having been banned for around 20 years now? This implies that, like you say, there is little compliance, but as wildfowlers seldom sell their quarry on a commercial basis, I’m puzzled as to how you can say categorically that wildfowlers aren't implicated. 
The other implication is that wild birds are also still picking up spent lead shot over the last 20 years ( since the lead shot ban came into force ) from previous generations of shooters, dispersed over a period of at least two hundred years. 
If the latter is true ( and I would be interested to learn how this could be disputed ) then what happens in another 20 years when the complete lead shot ban will have been in place for 15 years but the figures of wildfowl and other birds dying from lead poisoning is stated to remain the same? 
 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Scully

[8 shot]

,,

Edited April 14, 2021 by 8 shot

[rbrowning2]

11 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

Unfortunately, questions keep arising about compliance by us as shooters with the existing lead shot regs - for example up to 77% of ducks purchased from game dealers in England have been found to have been shot with lead as per studies published in 2012 and 2015. 

See:http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

Before anyone starts commenting that this was ages ago, I am reliably informed that more recent data shows that compliance has become even worse. 

This non-compliance with the law is almost certainly from inland duck shooting, both commercial and recreational, but not wildfowling.

Conor, that is disappointing but not surprising,  I do not personally go wildfowling but have friends that do as members of a club will only shoot for their own table and if we’re found on club ground with lead shot cartridge would be expelled from the club.

In my experience, game shoots however that end with a duck drive certainly are not policed in the same way and with many land owners requiring fibre wad cartridges to be used the choice until recently has been bismuth shot which being very expensive has not gained any traction.
And it will be these ducks that most likely end up at the game dealers.

compliance comes full circle to your statement that an effective and affordable alternative non toxic shot, biodegradable wad cartridge needs to be available, for all gun types.  And importers/manufactures must phase out from the market lead shot cartridges for live quarry shooting.
A Herculean task.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by rbrowning2

[Fellside]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

I have read the latest comments in this and the other inter-related thread with interest. 

It is disappointing, but not surprising, that some continue to try and conflate any discussion about the evidence of the impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, environment and human health and the phase out of lead ammunition with BASC and accusations of capitulation by BASC and ridiculous conspiracy theories about BASC. 

However, the fact is that three things are happening.

Firstly, a public consultation has begun in the European Union on proposals to further restrict the sale and use of lead ammunition. If these proposals are implemented that would have an impact UK shooting given the EU is the main market for our shot game and for the trade in firearms and ammunition.

Secondly, in the UK, a two-year review of the evidence around lead ammunition is taking place, which may result in a public consultation on options for restrictions.

Thirdly, the UK shooting organisations are continuing to encourage a voluntary transition away from lead and single-use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting by 2025.

As regards comments questioning the validity of the evidence of lead shot poisoning in wildfowl and other birds the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust have been autopsying dead birds and x-raying live birds captured over many years, as has been referenced in earlier comments.

Unfortunately, questions keep arising about compliance by us as shooters with the existing lead shot regs - for example up to 77% of ducks purchased from game dealers in England have been found to have been shot with lead as per studies published in 2012 and 2015. 

See:http://www.oxfordleadsymposium.info/wp-content/uploads/OLS_proceedings/papers/OLS_proceedings_pain_cromie_green.pdf

Before anyone starts commenting that this was ages ago, I am reliably informed that more recent data shows that compliance has become even worse. 

This non-compliance with the law is almost certainly from inland duck shooting, both commercial and recreational, but not wildfowling. Clearly though the ducks are still finding a way to pick up pellets as they’re moving around the country, presumably from when they stop at inland ponds en route to our larger estuaries, or when coming in land to feed at night.

Many of the research papers identify lead pellets in the gizzard, and elevated lead levels in the blood (of live ducks) or liver or kidney (of dead ducks) so it is unlikely that the lead has come from other sources, but there will of course be exceptions to that. 

Conor,

Just for clarity. Personally I am not a conspiracist nor a BASC basher. I merely insist upon high quality ‘clean evidence’ re terrestrial context - thus far not demonstrated.  I appreciate your contributions to the discussion. 

[clangerman]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 

It is disappointing, but not surprising, that some continue to try and conflate any discussion about the evidence of the impacts of lead ammunition on wildlife, environment and human health and the phase out of lead ammunition with BASC and accusations of capitulation by BASC and ridiculous conspiracy theories about BASC.

WHERE is your reply to 8 shots comments then? i’m waiting 8 shot is waiting and so is everyone else if you fail to refute his claim it is clearly TRUE! 

[Gas seal]

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

[Fellside]

13 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

Just out of interest - what kind of ‘non lead’ are you using through your 28 bore to kill Canadas? 

[rbrowning2]

5 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

Gas seal, you have obviously found away to make the cartridges that suite and work for you, well done, but that is not an option for the majority that shoot the challenge is getting shooters to swap from a lead shot fibre wad cartridge at currently around £240 per 1000 to steel shot eco biodegradable wads at £419, paper cup wad £349. or bismuth at £1221. Per 1000. Assuming they can even be made in sufficient quantity.
 

It’s a very big ask for the average working class shooter, who must either accept the extra cost, shoot less, or give up live quarry shooting all together, or continue using lead which in practice is what is happing and will continue to do so unless forced by law or cartridge importers/manufactures stop offering lead shot cartridges, which for now and probably the foreseeable future is financial suicide.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by rbrowning2
Wrong name in first line.

[Scully]

49 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

All that is fine if you reload, but the vast majority of game and pigeon shooters simply don’t want to reload; it isn’t practical nor desirable given the amounts of cartridges they get through, and trap shooters get through even more cartridges than anyone. Please don’t try to tell me the lead shot ban won’t effect trap shooters; if lead is as toxic and as damaging to our environment as is claimed, then trap shooting MUST be affected also. Perhaps not now, but it’s coming. 
We all know why raptor owners don’t feed their birds lead shot quarry, because it’s toxic; no one is disputing the toxicity. What we are disputing is the science on the effects of that toxicity, and the at best ‘guesstimates’ regarding the numbers it is claimed are dying each year from lead ingested shot, yet no one can produce the corpses. 🤷‍♂️

I just wish our shooting org’s had the guts and decency to be honest right from the start and admitted it is nothing to do with the toxicity of lead nor the spurious claims regarding deaths linked to that toxicity, but rather one of politics. 
I stated this years ago, that ministers have told our shooting rep’s something along the lines of ‘Look chaps, lead is going. We don’t like the fact anymore than you, but it’s out of favour and unPC nowadays to be willy nilly chucking vast amounts of toxins around the countryside, especially when we’re doing it for fun, so it’s going. Nothing to do with us, but it’s a big vote loser is all this ‘green’ gobbledygook business if we are perceived to be not inline, so that’s it. It’s up to you what you tell your members, but get them told, it’s going.’ 
The annoying thing is our orgs are losing members and respect by now claiming as evidence ( as a previous post shows ) all those reports they dismissed just a few short years ago. 🤔

22 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Clangerman, you have obviously found away to make the cartridges that suite and work for you, well done, but that is not an option for the majority that shoot the challenge is getting shooters to swap from a lead shot fibre wad cartridge at currently around £240 per 1000 to steel shot eco biodegradable wads at £419, paper cup wad £349. or bismuth at £1221. Per 1000. Assuming they can even be made in sufficient quantity.
 

It’s a very big ask for the average working class shooter, who must either accept the extra cost, shoot less, or give up live quarry shooting all together, or continue using lead which in practice is what is happing and will continue to do so unless forced by law or cartridge importers/manufactures stop offering lead shot cartridges, which for now and probably the foreseeable future is financial suicide.

 

Which is why many shooters will simply stockpile lead and carry on as before. Like I’ve said, as long as those birds don’t make it to the commercial food chain, who’s going to know? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Unfortunately I think it is already too late.

Our wonderful shooting orgs seem to be turkeys voting for Christmas!

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

Do you also use a Browning?

[Fellside]

52 minutes ago, Scully said:

All that is fine if you reload, but the vast majority of game and pigeon shooters simply don’t want to reload; it isn’t practical nor desirable given the amounts of cartridges they get through, and trap shooters get through even more cartridges than anyone. Please don’t try to tell me the lead shot ban won’t effect trap shooters; if lead is as toxic and as damaging to our environment as is claimed, then trap shooting MUST be affected also. Perhaps not now, but it’s coming. 
We all know why raptor owners don’t feed their birds lead shot quarry, because it’s toxic; no one is disputing the toxicity. What we are disputing is the science on the effects of that toxicity, and the at best ‘guesstimates’ regarding the numbers it is claimed are dying each year from lead ingested shot, yet no one can produce the corpses. 🤷‍♂️

I just wish our shooting org’s had the guts and decency to be honest right from the start and admitted it is nothing to do with the toxicity of lead nor the spurious claims regarding deaths linked to that toxicity, but rather one of politics. 
I stated this years ago, that ministers have told our shooting rep’s something along the lines of ‘Look chaps, lead is going. We don’t like the fact anymore than you, but it’s out of favour and unPC nowadays to be willy nilly chucking vast amounts of toxins around the countryside, especially when we’re doing it for fun, so it’s going. Nothing to do with us, but it’s a big vote loser is all this ‘green’ gobbledygook business if we are perceived to be not inline, so that’s it. It’s up to you what you tell your members, but get them told, it’s going.’ 
The annoying thing is our orgs are losing members and respect by now claiming as evidence ( as a previous post shows ) all those reports they dismissed just a few short years ago. 🤔

Which is why many shooters will simply stockpile lead and carry on as before. Like I’ve said, as long as those birds don’t make it to the commercial food chain, who’s going to know? 

Scully,

I think your assessment re the political is correct. I have concluded similar. It can be the only reason why DEFRA’s announcement was so bias in favour of non-lead (with spurious figures of shaky origin). It also has to be why BASC et al are thrashing out the same type of message...... and staying on messages no matter what. This appears to be a done deal. 

[clangerman]

1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Clangerman, you have obviously found away to make the cartridges that suite and work for you, well done, but that is not an option for the majority that shoot the challenge is getting shooters to swap from a lead shot fibre wad cartridge at currently around £240 per 1000 to steel shot eco biodegradable wads at £419, paper cup wad £349. or bismuth at £1221. Per 1000. Assuming they can even be made in sufficient quantity.
 

 

think you have the wrong person i’m the biggest fan of lead on here rather use half bricks than steel lol 

[clangerman]

2 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Clangerman. Lead wouldn’t be the best tool for killing woodpigeon it would be the person killing them. I kill many thousands of woodpigeon a year, I use lead air gun pellets, lead. 22 rime fire rounds, and steel shotgun pellets. I would say that my cartridges contain half the load of most shooters in the country. It’s me not the pellets that kills all of the woodpigeon many of them two at a time on the ground . If you look at the other topic l show photos of the cartridges I made. I don’t think that the woodpigeon l killed  with them noticed the cardboard tubes flying at them. The woodpigeon I shoot with steel pellets go to animal feed or given to any  family members or friends that want them. In and around the river Mersey we have the largest population of Canada Geese, mainly the greater Canada goose, this is a very large bird. 20 years ago I would shoot them with a 12gauge and lead pellets, now I use 20gauge or 28gauge with (non lead pellets) . This is a open website and anyone any where in the world can look at what we all say. Why are no shooters disgusting the alternative cartridges that they have used good or bad . And if lead has no effect on birds of prey why don’t falconers take pigeons shot with lead, because it will kill them.

HALF the amount of shot most of us use and you are slaying thousands of pigeons?  obviously you are the finest shot on here congratulations! 

[Scully]

29 minutes ago, Fellside said:

Scully,

I think your assessment re the political is correct. I have concluded similar. It can be the only reason why DEFRA’s announcement was so bias in favour of non-lead (with spurious figures of shaky origin). It also has to be why BASC et al are thrashing out the same type of message...... and staying on messages no matter what. This appears to be a done deal. 

Indeed. 👍

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, clangerman said:

think you have the wrong person i’m the biggest fan of lead on here rather use half bricks than steel lol 

Indeed, apologies edit made to Gas seal, 

[Smokersmith]

On 12/04/2021 at 07:25, White Rabbit said:

Having tried to stay neutral on the subject I now feel we've been placed on a slippery slope from which we cannot return.

Our organisations seemed to have gone the way of the rest of society where to be seen to be doing the "right" thing trumps actual facts and common sense.

What is behind all this? The need to shift all the pheasants we over produce? There's an easier way of curing that. 20% of shoots currently produce 80% of the pheasants. Do they seriously think there's millions of potential customers out there being put off by lead shot? Seriously!

Is it environmentally driven? If so, why is it species specific? Is lead fired at a clay pigeon less poisonous?

Or is it just a case of being seen to be doing something. I see the rush that the younger shooting generation have to embrace anything considered woke, alternative or trendy regardless of the consequences. Merrily posting their environmental credentials on youtube via their chinese smart phones.

In 10-15 years time the same flawed studies will declare that wildlife is still being poisoned. Nasty shooters aren't complying. Shooting banned and we'll be blamed for it.

Well done BASC etc.

WR.

 

A good post that summarises much of what I feel about it.

As a fowler, I know steel works, and I know it has limitations. The changes will come sooner than the 'voluntary 5 years' and it will impact on some of the types of shooting I enjoy.

We will have to adapt to survive ... just a shame that it's not based on any significant risk, and that we've actively taken a running jump off the cliff rather than fighting not to be pushed off.

 

[GingerCat]

I'd be happy to use steel if they got rid of the plastic shot cups as my permission is fibre only. Obviously the lead ban will effect everyone, in time airguns and rifles also. I do wonder though why basc has changed position so considerably in such a very short space of time, seemingly without new evidence but the same old  evidence they once dismissed. 

I also wonder why they announced it without speaking to the makers of cartridges first as it appears the 5 year transition is a bit of wishful thinking. 

[Gas seal]

Hi Fellside the shot l use in 28gauge is 20grams of ITM or 18grams of TSS. In 20gauge l use 28grams of power shot.

 Hi Rbrownig2 yes l made cartridges to suit different situations . Twenty years ago I gave my 10 and 12gauge shotguns to family member and friends. I couldn’t manage many shots with them. I bought a gun I had never seen before a 28gauge . As a keen reloader l just loaded my steel and ITM into 28gauge cases. I’m still at it I didn’t give up shotgun shooting.l also use a 20gauge semi auto I fire 24grams of steel shot. As a pensioner I also know the cost of ( bio wad) cartridges . Smaller gauge cartridges are always more expensive than 12gauge so it has always cost me more to shoot .

I use the 28gauge in situations where you would use a .410 

hi Scully maybe trap shooting will continue with lead shot and fibre or plastic wads as in the Olympic Games. They use nets to collect spent shot.

hi Clangerman l don’t slay thousands of woodpigeon a year l kill or cull them. I never comment on my shooting ability. When I responded to the general license consultation I hand written my response in some detail .and I wrote in detail regarding the need for different types of firearms including air guns as I use air guns and I was concerned they would be taken of the licence. I won’t let a total (ban) lead shot stop me shooting .

Hi Wymberley I use Benelli semi auto shotguns.

sorry if I missed any one it’s a lot of reading and typing.

 

[Jim Neal]

11 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Unfortunately I think it is already too late.

Our wonderful shooting orgs seem to be turkeys voting for Christmas!

I'll amend that statement

WE are the turkeys and they have NOMINATED US for Christmas.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

8 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

I'll amend that statement

WE are the turkeys and they have NOMINATED US for Christmas.

Yes you may well be quite correct!

What a strange thing to do to support your membership in their chosen activities.

[8 shot]

There is something else going on behind this. Jostling for a place a bigger table, looking to secure government money for future projects ?  When farm subsidies go in a few years time environmental schemes will be the only way farms will make a living and game shooting will be detrimental to the countryside won’t look good for on tax payers money . Maybe over thinking it, but the most stupid person in the world wouldn’t alienate or sack the people that pay there wages