Howling at the moon or credible scenario? Mass law-breaking

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

By straight forward I suppose I meant honest and by honest I mean he absolutely will use subterfuge to achieve his purpose, but will usually be the purpose of a greater good that can't be passed in a straight way, due to woke agendas, but it will be what the average Joe on the street wants. I think it it partly this that has allowed the cons to take traditional labour seats. 

Can't disagree with that.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

On 21/07/2021 at 13:01, JohnfromUK said:

I am confident it won't happen - just as it seems you are confident it will

Well that didn't age well, did it?!

Less than 24hours in fact

The only question is whether we let them get away with it or not.

[JohnfromUK]

6 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Well that didn't age well, did it?!

Less than 24hours in fact

What I said was  "I am confident it won't happen" and it was in response to this post of yours;

"When you're running around because your elderly mother or pregnant wife can't even buy bog-roll from the local shop"

Nadhim Zahawi has said NOTHING that will prevent "your elderly mother or pregnant wife buying bog-roll from the local shop"

As I said right from square 1 in my post at 12.05 yesterday "I'm not paranoid about showing my ID, or vaccination status."

8 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The only question is whether we let them get away with it or not.

That is one for Parliament, not for me.  If Parliament passes it, it will happen, if not, it won't.

My local shop requires a mask still (I went this morning and when I saw the request to wear masks - I put mine on).  If they add a vaccine cert because they are told to, then I will show that if asked.  Not a problem.  But I can still buy from them.  I have no doubt that IF I either couldn't wear a mask, or get vaccinated, then I would still be able (maybe with an exemption card?) to get my shopping done.

We agreed to differ - and I'm happy with that, - and I'm also still happy that "you will still be able to buy a bog roll from the local shop".  You are making a difficulty that doesn't exist.

[udderlyoffroad]

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I have no doubt that IF I either couldn't wear a mask, or get vaccinated, then I would still be able (maybe with an exemption card?) to get my shopping done.

You are seriously happy at 'producing papers' in order to buy shopping?  Really?! 

Also, it will not be paper based.  So once again, the technically-unsavvy/elderly will be part of the have nots and will require support from their younger friends and family.

Also what is it you're not getting about 'exemption cards' - there will be no such animal.  The government mandated masks and gave everybody 'get out of jail free' cards by being able to claim some disability/reason not to have to wear them.  They will not be making that mistake again, or at least not without some bureaucratic exercise to positively verify that you are actually unable to have a jab.  Presumably you're happy with that too? 

Incidentally, am pretty sure you know you're drawing a false equivalence with mandating masks, your local shop is (finally) free to take a position on masks as it sees fit, and the market will decide.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is one for Parliament, not for me.  If Parliament passes it, it will happen, if not, it won't.

It's seemingly escaped your notice, but parliament has been bypassed for most of this pandemic.  They are about to rise for the summer, and will not be back until 6/09/21. 

So the government will not even be held to account whilst it is busy implementing this system, always assuming the leader of HM Opposition isn't too busy castigating Boris for not condemning booing at football matches or some such nonsense.

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

You are making a difficulty that doesn't exist.

I will howl and scream and shout from the rooftops thank you very *****g much if a so-called conservative government starts taking measures that would be quite at home in the bad old days of the USSR.

Whilst....people...like you say you're fine with it. I give up.

[Rewulf]

The road to totalitarianism is paved with 'good intentions'

You may quite rightly ask yourself , why do I need to prove my vax status before I can enjoy the basic rights of entry to shops , pubs , even nightclubs ?
If un vaxxed , do I pose a higher risk to the clientelle , who may or may not be themselves vaxxed ?
When it has become fairly clear over the last few months that a double jab does not grant immunity from contracting covid, in fact Ive just heard of 3 members of a family I know , all double jabbed contracting it , one of them a fit healthy 64 year old , becoming quite ill (not hospitalised though)
We may think we are doing the 'right thing' by obeying the 'rules' , getting jabbed ect, but what is the cost ?

“When a dog is tied to a cart, if it wants to follow, it is pulled and follows, making its spontaneous act coincide with necessity. But if the dog does not follow, it will be compelled in any case. So it is with men too: even if they don't want to, they will be compelled to follow what is destined.”

Mull that one over.

 

Or this one.

' A dog is chained in a yard, every few days, a link is removed from the chain, the chain becoming shorter and shorter, until the dog can barely move.
The dog never resisted or complained , he got used to the loss of his freedom, as the change , link by link , was slow enough that he never noticed  until it was too late'

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

I give up.

We have different views and agree to differ! 

[ordnance]

 

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The road to totalitarianism is paved with 'good intentions'

You may quite rightly ask yourself , why do I need to prove my vax status before I can enjoy the basic rights of entry to shops , pubs , even nightclubs ?
If un vaxxed , do I pose a higher risk to the clientelle , who may or may not be themselves vaxxed ?
When it has become fairly clear over the last few months that a double jab does not grant immunity from contracting covid, in fact Ive just heard of 3 members of a family I know , all double jabbed contracting it , one of them a fit healthy 64 year old , becoming quite ill (not hospitalised though)
We may think we are doing the 'right thing' by obeying the 'rules' , getting jabbed ect, but what is the cost ?

“When a dog is tied to a cart, if it wants to follow, it is pulled and follows, making its spontaneous act coincide with necessity. But if the dog does not follow, it will be compelled in any case. So it is with men too: even if they don't want to, they will be compelled to follow what is destined.”

Mull that one over.

 

Or this one.

' A dog is chained in a yard, every few days, a link is removed from the chain, the chain becoming shorter and shorter, until the dog can barely move.
The dog never resisted or complained , he got used to the loss of his freedom, as the change , link by link , was slow enough that he never noticed  until it was too late'

Yeah, could all be cunning plan to control the population. 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by ordnance

[holloway]

Interesting thread to read from the start ,if only people would accept that opinions differ and respect the views of others the world would be a better place .

[oowee]

On 21/07/2021 at 17:15, 12gauge82 said:

By straight forward I suppose I meant honest and by honest I mean he absolutely will use subterfuge to achieve his purpose, but will usually be the purpose of a greater good that can't be passed in a straight way, due to woke agendas, but it will be what the average Joe on the street wants. I think it it partly this that has allowed the cons to take traditional labour seats. 

He must be one of the most moral corrupt pm's ever. From a party that used to have the highest standards. Greater good, holidays and redecoration come to mind let alone the latest wheeze from Kerry to stop the cull. 

The sooner we get id cards the better.  Let's identify the illegals and scroungers sooner rather than later. If we have to start with vaccine passports that's good enough for me.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

He must be one of the most moral corrupt pm's ever. From a party that used to have the highest standards. Greater good, holidays and redecoration come to mind let alone the latest wheeze from Kerry to stop the cull. 

The sooner we get id cards the better.  Let's identify the illegals and scroungers sooner rather than later. If we have to start with vaccine passports that's good enough for me.

I am not old enough to have seen PMs who are not morally corrupt!

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

The sooner we get id cards the better.  Let's identify the illegals and scroungers sooner rather than later. If we have to start with vaccine passports that's good enough for me.

That sounds great, but they still have to then do something about the illegals,  boat fulls arrive daily but where do they end up?

[oowee]

5 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I am not old enough to have seen PMs who are not morally corrupt!

😁 Good point but we only encourage it when we don't point it out. 

I thought Maggie was straight, apart from Belgrano maybe. ? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

38 minutes ago, oowee said:

😁 Good point but we only encourage it when we don't point it out. 

I thought Maggie was straight, apart from Belgrano maybe. ? 

Maggie was great and her decision about the General Belgrano was quite correct.

Where she went wrong was allowing Council Houses to be bought at massive discounts and not build the same amount or ideally more!

[Newbie to this]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

her decision about the General Belgrano was quite correct.

[12gauge82]

9 hours ago, oowee said:

He must be one of the most moral corrupt pm's ever. From a party that used to have the highest standards. Greater good, holidays and redecoration come to mind let alone the latest wheeze from Kerry to stop the cull. 

The sooner we get id cards the better.  Let's identify the illegals and scroungers sooner rather than later. If we have to start with vaccine passports that's good enough for me.

Im not sure I can take your post seriously when we've had Tony Blair as a PM, surely he's hands down the most corrupt PM the country has ever had? 

[Gordon R]

Quote

The sooner we get id cards the better.

You might have an idea how much was spent on the ID card fiasco and what a waste of money. It won't be revived any time soon.

[udderlyoffroad]

On 23/07/2021 at 21:54, Gordon R said:

It won't be revived any time soon.

We have de-facto ID cards in the form of driving licences.  Whilst you're not legally required to carry them at all, you will have a bad day if the police stop you and you do not have one.

On 23/07/2021 at 11:12, oowee said:

The sooner we get id cards the better.  Let's identify the illegals and scroungers sooner rather than later.

This will only affect the law-abiding.  The dregs of society will carry on exactly as before.

Anyway. 

The government assured us 5 days ago that vaccine passports wouldn't be required at universities, then changed their minds 4 days later.  They're not even pretending now.

So, to recap, we have empty shelves in supermarkets due to government-mandated madness of people not being allowed to work for the greater good or some such nonsense. 

We face the prospect of having to produce papers to even be allowed in the shops*, and then get there to find empty shelves. 

Pretty sure anyone from the other side of the iron curtain over the age of about 45 remembers living like this and doesn't recommend it.

Of course, it is entirely possible that it will  end up being some British-style fudge and botched implementation.  I'm not hanging around to find out, if at all possible.  Sadly, it looks unlikely this will be Boris' poll tax moment** as the nation is far too cowe(re)d to rise up against this massive state-control nightmare

 

 

 

*If you still think this won't happen based on the performance we've had so far, I've got some magic beans you may be interested in.

**which I'm not old enough to remember, but seemingly riots caused by a suggestion that local taxation being based on your ability to pay was somehow worse than basing it on the value of the property you happen to live in, in 1992?

[Gordon R]

Quote

We have de-facto ID cards in the form of driving licences.  Whilst you're not legally required to carry them at all, you will have a bad day if the police stop you and you do not have one.

Driving licences only apply to those who drive. Identity cards are not something which will happen. Tried - failed.

[udderlyoffroad]

You seemingly don't understand the term de-facto.  Even when not driving, if asked by the police for identification, and you don't have any, the mood will quickly change, even if there is no legal obligation for you to carry any.

For this reason, and the fact that a provisional licence costs about the same as a 'prove it' age verification card, even young people who do not intend learning to drive will get a provisional licence.  It's the path of least resistance for them.

By the way, the reason ID cards failed last time was:

1) massive Tory opposition (including one very vocal B. Johnson, wonder what happened to him)

2) New Labour massively embracing an huuuge database behind it.  At the time it would've been massively difficult to pull off.  20 years later, however....

[Gordon R]

Quote

 

By the way, the reason ID cards failed last time was:

1) massive Tory opposition (including one very vocal B. Johnson, wonder what happened to him)

2) New Labour massively embracing an huuuge database behind it.  At the time it would've been massively difficult to pull off.  20 years later, however....

 

I have to admire the phrase "by the way", it seems to imply that you know why it failed.

PS - I understand the term de facto. Do you?

[udderlyoffroad]

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

I have to admire the phrase "by the way", it seems to imply that you know why it failed.

Did I miss anything?

 

9 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

PS - I understand the term de facto. Do you?

This is a tricky one. 

I could quote you a dictionary definition, for the sake of brevity, but that would hardly demonstrate that I knew what term meant when I used it, so you'll just have to take it as read that I do.  Something of a moot point anyway.

Quote

In law and government, de facto describes practices that exist in reality, even though they are not officially recognized by laws. It is commonly used to refer to what happens in practice, in contrast with de jure, which refers to things that happen according to law

That first sentence from wikipedia* pretty much sums up the situation with respect to driving licences and proving your identity to the police in the UK, does it not?

*Yes, I know.  Don't @ me.

[JohnfromUK]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

**which I'm not old enough to remember, but seemingly riots caused by a suggestion that local taxation being based on your ability to pay was somehow worse than basing it on the value of the property you happen to live in, in 1992?

I will let you off as you aren't old enough to remember - but correct a factual inaccuracy in the above. 

It did not do the above.  In fact one of the major complaints is that it didn't take into account your ability to pay.  It was (actually called "The Community Charge" and was a single flat rate tax on every adult set by the local authority.

Instead of one tax being levied on a household (irrespective of the number of persons in that household) based on the property value (much as we have now), the idea was that the tax would apply to all adults.  So;

• A household with one single person living alone in a larger property paid one 'community charge'.  In today's value that would probably have been say about £200.
• A household with say 2 parents, two adult children living at home, and one child's adult partner living at home was 5 adults - and so paid 5 'community charges'.  In today's value that would probably have been say about £1000.

The idea was to charge every 'income bringer' equally.  Crucially, it was flat rate and didn't take into account 'ability to pay', although the usual assistances/benefits/rebates were available to disabled etc. and I think full time students may have been exempted.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

We have de-facto ID cards in the form of driving licences.  Whilst you're not legally required to carry them at all, you will have a bad day if the police stop you and you do not have one.

Why would you?? If the police do stop you and you don't have your driving licence,  which I rarely do then they will likely already have ran your car reg, they'll ask your name & address and if that all matches and nothing flags up on the system there is no issue. 

You keep painting this bleak picture of Britain or just England yet there were demonstrations and riots going on in France and Australia over lockdowns and vaccinations,  while folk here queued to get in nightclubs!

Meanwhile I read last week that Canada will be letting double vaccinated Americans back into Canada in August,  how do you think they will be proving they have had the vaccine?

I had no idea Canada had closed its borders to America. 

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Did I miss anything?

Yes. 

[udderlyoffroad]

25 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Why would you?? If the police do stop you and you don't have your driving licence,  which I rarely do then they will likely already have ran your car reg, they'll ask your name & address and if that all matches and nothing flags up on the system there is no issue. 

I'm clearly not making point simple enough; there will be an immediate change in tone for the worse from the officers, if you do not have a means to prove your ID on you.  And, this is not just confined being stopped whilst driving.  Hence my assertion that driving licences are, in the absence of formal ID cards, the de facto ID card in this country.

The 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' argument is such bunkum I won't dignify it with a response, save for saying that I do agree that ensuring you have valid MOT, insurance, valid driving licence and a road-worthy vehicle is about the best protection you can have against the rage of a grumpy traffic officer.

32 minutes ago, Mice! said:

You keep painting this bleak picture of Britain or just England yet there were demonstrations and riots going on in France and Australia over lockdowns and vaccinations,  while folk here queued to get in nightclubs!

What's your point?  That young people want to have a good time, despite some epic level Orwellian-**** being introduced by a so-called Conservative government, with the official opposition doing their best porn-star impression ("Faster!  Harder!")?

35 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Meanwhile I read last week that Canada will be letting double vaccinated Americans back into Canada in August,  how do you think they will be proving they have had the vaccine?

And your point is?  How far one of our Commonwealth partners have fallen too?

Canada has introduced laws recently nominally banning 12-bores and criminalising the mis-gendering of someone.

In any case, proof of vaccination for international travel isn't the issue here.  The UK government has no control over Canada, or anyone else's entry requirements (though I would suggest a tit-for-tat policy would speed up opening up of borders). 

The point is we are, seemingly with the tacit approval of large swathes of the population, but without the approval of parliament, moving to a system of 'papers please' for everyday life.  Only it will be an app.

The only hope I can see, is the Venn diagram of people who don't want to be vaccinated, and the people from a BAME background has quite the sizable overlap, so soon or later the 'racist' word will be used to describe this policy.  Which, as we know, is like kryptonite to politicians.

Or, put another way, those in favour of vaccine passports, but opposed to voter ID because muuh racism (better described as the bigotry of low expectations) are going to have to do some pretty spectacular mental gymnastics to justify supporting the former but opposing the latter.