That was a great success then........

[LeedsZeppelin]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Im sorry but thats just plain rubbish, average road deaths per year are less than 2000, so even if there were NO road deaths , which is clearly not the case, or NO workplace  or sport deaths, again , clearly not the case, they would be a drop in the ocean anyway.
So to say covid deaths swallowed up the deaths that didnt happen is total fallacy.

You are taking three examples I've posted, and not seeing there are many more similar categories of deaths that are also lower than usual. They were examples - not a definitive list.

It is worth noting that the information I replied to was wrong anyway. Deaths were up by about 90,000 (695,000 vs 604,000) over the previous year. It is also the highest by a country mile compared to the other recent years I compared it too.

Does that mean that 90,000 died of COVID? No, it is likely higher as deaths were down in other categories.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

This again means what ?

Deaths arent a problem?  Are deaths from untreated ailments (because of covid) a problem ?
What about the quality of life of people who cannot get seen by their GPs , because most GPs have had a year off ?
The real death toll will be next year , when all those who SHOULD have been treated over the last 18 months, die from the diseases they have been living with, while the  obsession with covid has been satisfied.

Thats the point I'm trying to get at. Treating COVID is putting a strain on the NHS, which means that other people are going untreated.

I can't grasp how you are failing to understand that.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Heres a test, how many people do YOU PERSONALLY know, that have definitely died of covid, and please dont include anyone over the age of 90, or with a terminal illness.
Ill go first.... 1.

I know of 1 for definite, two probable, and several who have been very ill and are still suffering months later.

I don't want it to be more.

I have a relative who is an A&E nurse. She has seen more than her fair share of deaths recently. She recently told me of a 19 year old with COVID who is unlikely to come out of hospital alive. She had no underlying health problems.

But you sit in your ivory tower claiming it is a hoax and there is nothing to worry about. Get your head out of the sand.

Edited July 17, 2021 by LeedsZeppelin
Speeeling.

[Gordon R]

Quote

In reference to the NHS been under-staffed and underfunded; this has been the case for years. Ask anyone who works in the NHS.

A few years ago, I got septicaemia, plus MRSA (courtesy of the wonderful NHS). Whilst in hospital, I heard many staff complaining about underfunding and understaffing. Half a dozen nurses would group together and discuss this at length, in between conversations about last Saturday night or next Saturday night. 

There are many wonderful staff in the NHS, but to paint them as overworked martyrs is a step too far. Many employees, in any industry, would say the were understaffed and underfunded, but that doesn't make it true. 

Covid obsession has meant that people requiring cancer treatment or an operation has had to take a back seat, whilst hospitals haven't been overwhelmed at all. The joke that is Track and Trace, has consumed millions and still seems to enjoy trust. I can't comprehend how anyone with a brain cell can believe it could ever work in the UK.

At some point we have to take our chance and return to normality. Printing money can't be sustained. Personally, I think we should have taken our chance some months ago.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Gordon R

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

If that keeps the surgery open then where is the issue? Better to wear a mask, the staff could still get covid despite being vaccinated then have to isolate until the rules are changed.

That's simply ridiculous and probably down to the App, I'm amazed people still have it.

What sort of age are the friends? The old folk I see at the caravan park are all back on site and happy, mixing and socialising with each other, double jabbed and happy, I was sorting someone's tv for them a few weeks back and there was nothing mentioned about covid, they were just happy being back on site.

early 80s same as us but they are a bit wuffly duffly on food etc.,  ...never eat any processed food etc etc., although a farmers son and country folk. BUT that makes my comment even more to the point. If these two people have been scared to this extent then what the chances for the remaining population?  It ain't a rehearsal, get on and enjoy every second you hopefully wake to up in the morning.   Take it from me there is a huge amount of money being made out of this situation...

Masks in my local garden centre at £20 each for instance.

[Mice!]

5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Masks in my local garden centre at £20 each for instance

I hope they are washable reusable with some magic fairy dust on them?

That's why I asked their age, my M-in-L and friends are back out doing things, eating out and enjoying themselves, the really old folk are back (80 + 🤭🤭) and getting on with it.

But we are seeing a lot of cases locally, my daughter's year had to isolate twice within three weeks, with kids showing symptoms, plus other years, cases are up in work, my brothers family are now isolating for the first time.

And I haven't looked what's going on around Blackburn.

Let's get on with things but with a bit of common sense. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

Does that mean that 90,000 died of COVID? No, it is likely higher as deaths were down in other categories

You're making a huge assumption on that though aren't you? How much lower are the deaths in other categories? 

Figures out today state alcohol related deaths are up 20 %, suicides up, I wonder what caused that? 

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

But you sit in your ivory tower claiming it is a hoax and there is nothing to worry about. Get your head out of the sand

What ivory Tower is this, and who said it was a hoax? 

I've worked all the way through, and lived a relatively normal life regarding my hobbies and pursuits, you could say I've had a good pandemic 😋

But others haven't, others have had their lives wrecked by it, and a lot of it was, and will be, down to poor decisions, planning and strategy, by the government and NHS. 

If we take the word of the stats, and say 150,000 people died 'with' {whatever that means} covid over the past 18 months, something like 5 % of the total of deaths in that time? 

That's like 6 or 7 years worth of flu deaths, that nobody gave a hoot about, didn't crash the economy, didn't wreck lives, and didn't require lockdowns, emergency vaccinations and draconian laws. 

It's time to treat covid like flu, and to stop being stupid. 

[Walker570]

COMMON SENSE these days is not that common.

[henry d]

10 hours ago, Mungler said:

Whenever I hear ‘doubling’ I hear the BS alarm going off.

You double 2 and you get to 4, that’s an increase of only 2 but a 100% increase or a ‘doubling’ sounds a lot more frightening. 

Now then, how many hospitals are there in the UK I hear you ask? Well, the answer is 1,250.

Latest daily Covid patient admission is 717 (that’s well under less than 1 admission per hospital) and total Covid bed occupancy is 3,964 and so that’s 3 Covid patients per hospital.

There are 551 people on ventilation, so that’s nearly 3 hospitals for each ventilation case

That's a bit naughty! Call someone out for BSing, but you use the above to put your POV forward, you know very well that is a poor argument because if that was the case Orkney's Balfour hospital would be snowed under as they have 2 HDU beds and one more that can be used in an emergency.

[Rewulf]

33 minutes ago, henry d said:

That's a bit naughty! Call someone out for BSing, but you use the above to put your POV forward, you know very well that is a poor argument because if that was the case Orkney's Balfour hospital would be snowed under as they have 2 HDU beds and one more that can be used in an emergency.

Throughout the entire pandemic, the Orkney Islands have had a TOTAL tested covid infection rate of ...35 .

2 people have died , and the fact they were both about 120 years old has allegedly nothing to do with it🤔

Your argument lacks relevance. 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

That's a bit naughty! Call someone out for BSing, but you use the above to put your POV forward, you know very well that is a poor argument because if that was the case Orkney's Balfour hospital would be snowed under as they have 2 HDU beds and one more that can be used in an emergency.

The Orkney’s Hospital? 😆😆😆

If the Orkney islanders want cutting edge clinical care catered to their needs then:

1. They should take that up with wee Jimmy

2. they should consider not living in total isolation in the middle of absolutely nowhere

If a motor cyclist ran into an old lady crossing the road that would screw their HDU capacity right there. I dread to think what would happen if the motorcyclist was carrying a pillion passenger 😆

I honestly thought your post was a wind up 😆

Edited July 17, 2021 by Mungler

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, henry d said:

That's a bit naughty! Call someone out for BSing, but you use the above to put your POV forward, you know very well that is a poor argument because if that was the case Orkney's Balfour hospital would be snowed under as they have 2 HDU beds and one more that can be used in an emergency.

What sort of argument is that, in that case no one should be allowed to do anything for fear of blocking hospital beds up,which is a ridiculous argument. 

[LeedsZeppelin]

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

You're making a huge assumption on that though aren't you? How much lower are the deaths in other categories? 

Figures out today state alcohol related deaths are up 20 %, suicides up, I wonder what caused that? 

I cannot find the source that I have previously seen, but I wasn't going off assumption.

I understand that suicides were sadly higher than usual, and liver failure is a common problem due to over drinking. Other alcohol related deaths I have seen as reported to be down, but it is a broad term that can include anything from drunken students falling off statues to someone drowning in a breweries fermentation vessel depending on who's statistics you go off.

To stop us going around in circles, I'll assume that we are looking at conflicting statistics and think of the old adage "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".

It is worth noting that since records began in 1838, there has only been four years with a higher death toll for UK citizens - 1915, 1918, 1929 and 1940. I think that tells it's own truth. 

6 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If we take the word of the stats, and say 150,000 people died 'with' {whatever that means} covid over the past 18 months, something like 5 % of the total of deaths in that time? 

I'm led to believe that the phrasing 'died with COVID' is a label for future reference. It doesn't necessarily mean that COVID was the cause of death, or even related, but future studies may want to know who died with/shortly after COVID. It's a way of future-proofing the death certificate, in a way. Sadly, the media latched onto the phrase and used it in whatever way sells papers.

[Jim Neal]

43 minutes ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

Sadly, the media latched onto the phrase and used it in whatever way sells papers.

Sadly, the gullible were duped by the phrase and used it to justify an insane level of paranoia whilst continually screaming at everyone else to hide behind the sofa and never come out again.

[LeedsZeppelin]

39 minutes ago, Jim Neal said:

Sadly, the gullible were duped by the phrase and used it to justify an insane level of paranoia whilst continually screaming at everyone else to hide behind the sofa and never come out again.

I think that is why it is important for people to do their own research and form their own opinion.

But as has been shown here, people interpret the data differently, and there is always a bias from where you get the data from. 

For those who get their research from Facebook posts, there is as many people who believe it is a conspiracy and completely fabricated as those that believe the end is nigh and we are all doomed.

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

understand that suicides were sadly higher than usual, and liver failure is a common problem due to over drinking. Other alcohol related deaths I have seen as reported to be down, but it is a broad term that can include anything from drunken students falling off statues to someone drowning in a breweries fermentation vessel depending on who's statistics you go off

It's the ONS  stats, and it's not a broad term. 

21 % higher than normal people have drank themselves to death via liver failure, many more will die later. 

Without any back up of stats you seem to doubt lockdowns have caused any deaths or mental health issues? 

1 hour ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

I'm led to believe that the phrasing 'died with COVID' is a label for future reference. It doesn't necessarily mean that COVID was the cause of death, or even related, but future studies may want to know who died with/shortly after COVID. It's a way of future-proofing the death certificate

Read this very carefully. 

Death certificates have been deliberately falsified to show excessive covid deaths, people dying from totally unconnected illness and accident have been put down as dying with covid... Even when negatively tested, I personally know of 4 examples, and multiple NHS workers I know have confirmed it. 

So how does that future proof the death certificate? 

[LeedsZeppelin]

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It's the ONS  stats, and it's not a broad term. 

21 % higher than normal people have drank themselves to death via liver failure, many more will die later. 

I wasn't saying your chosen stats were a broad term, more suggesting that stats CAN be spread across a broad term.

I can see how liver failure is up. Depending on what stats you go from, including the earlier ones I reviewed, it was a broader spectrum.

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Without any back up of stats you seem to doubt lockdowns have caused any deaths or mental health issues? 

Where have I stated that? If you knew me you wouldn't even insinuate that.

18 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Read this very carefully. 

Death certificates have been deliberately falsified to show excessive covid deaths, people dying from totally unconnected illness and accident have been put down as dying with covid... Even when negatively tested, I personally know of 4 examples, and multiple NHS workers I know have confirmed it. 

So how does that future proof the death certificate? 

Dying "WITH COVID", not "OF COVID". There is a difference.

You seem to have fallen into the common trap of thinking that they are somehow linking COVID to their deaths, as do the NHS workers you know by the sounds of things. They are not saying there is a link at all. Muppets on Facebook are suggesting that.

What they are doing is safeguarding the information incase they suspect any links in the future.

As an example (remember, an example. Not me saying this is a fact, just an example.), in several years time scientists see a link between COVID and fatal brain tumours. They can then cross reference death certificates with that information (which would read something along the lines of 'Cause of death - Brain tumour (with COVID).') and see if there is any abnormal data or trends. Without the information about COVID on the certificate it makes it harder to find. It is potentially useful to scientists and researchers, that is all. 

There is nothing nefarious going on, and I highly doubt any death certificates have been falsified. What would be the point? You're stepping close to tinfoil hat territory with that one.

[Walker570]

Strikes me you 'experts' should get out with the gun more and stop wasting time trawling the web for information.

There is no doubt it has been a scare campaign.  There is no doubt the NHS is not being managed properly and short of emergency facilities/front line staff.   Anyone here remember the Isolation Hospitals ? These provided facilities to house any patients with contagious diseases ....TB mainly. They where all sold off where they could have been retained and used in this situation. 

[enfieldspares]

Sadly although many people will irrefutably die within twenty-eight days of having tested positive for covid so very very very many more will also, irrefutably, die within twenty-eight days of having drunk a cup of tea.

Anything can be proven with selective use of statistics.

The truth is, I am told, if it's such that you need to be hospitalised that you have four days that are critical in the immediate period after catching this disease. You either emerge from those four days alive (albeit still "not well") or you emerge from it in a bodybag.

So it would be probably more truthful if the statistics were to quote how many people died within ten days (to allow some leeway between diagnosis and death) of having tested for covid.

But that, whilst more honest, would probably not suit Johnson's agenda.

Edited July 18, 2021 by enfieldspares

[henry d]

12 hours ago, Mungler said:

If a motor cyclist ran into an old lady crossing the road that would screw their HDU capacity right there. I dread to think what would happen if the motorcyclist was carrying a pillion passenger

Come on, you normally pick up people for their "whataboutery" 

[Gordon R]

Quote

There is nothing nefarious going on, and I highly doubt any death certificates have been falsified. 

I wish I had your faith. Doesn't the pandemic provide a fair number of "easements", in signing death certificates?

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Come on, you normally pick up people for their "whataboutery" 

Getting to the massive number of ‘2’ and the certain collapse of Orkney HDU requires  very little speculation or whataboutary 😆

Let me put it another way - if your whole argument hinges on a fringe island community’s hospital needs in a ‘pandemic’ then I suggest you go again or take this very serious and pressing matter up with wee Jimmy who is of course singularly in charge of Jock destiny.

[Rewulf]

8 hours ago, LeedsZeppelin said:

There is nothing nefarious going on, and I highly doubt any death certificates have been falsified. What would be the point? You're stepping close to tinfoil hat territory with that one.

Dismissing valid arguments with the tin foil accusation won't work here, and your theory of preserving data on the death cert for future reference holds no water , a death cert is a legal document, and manipulation of figures for what ifs , is as nefarious and fraudulent  as it gets.

I wonder if anyone dying of stroke or thrombosis after being vaccjnated with AZ , will get that mentioned on the death cert, just in case there is a link proven in the future ?

Somehow I highly doubt it.

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

So it would be probably more truthful if the statistics were to quote how many people died within ten days (to allow some leeway between diagnosis and death) of having tested for covid

It would be a fast improvement on 28 , which was an improvement from the original 60 days!

 

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

I wish I had your faith. Doesn't the pandemic provide a fair number of "easements", in signing death certificates?

There is absolutely no doubt doctors were signing death certs for people with , or of covid, when they knew full well they didn't have it, or didn't bother with a post mortem test.

It was less paperwork for starters , and financially better for them.

[enfieldspares]

Of course, yet again, "one rule for us....one rule for you".

Quote

The prime minister and chancellor will not be self-isolating after contact with Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who has tested positive for coronavirus.

Downing Street said the pair would take part in a pilot programme, where daily tests replace self-isolation.

 

[Mungler]

40 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Of course, yet again, "one rule for us....one rule for you".

 

I think that shows more about what they know and where we are heading.

If you truly thought you had a deadly virus, you would isolate. I think they ‘know’ the risks of transmission and mortality and are cutting their cloth accordingly, and as we all should be.

[toontastic]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

very very very many more will also, irrefutably, die within twenty-eight days of having drunk a cup of tea.

 

That's it, from now on I'm only drinking beer🍺

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

The truth is, I am told, if it's such that you need to be hospitalised that you have four days that are critical in the immediate period after catching this disease. You either emerge from those four days alive (albeit still "not well") or you emerge from it in a bodybag.

I've not seen that one mentioned before,  but if it's TRUE then it's very worrying,  4 days in an over worked NHS ward could flash by in the blink of an eye.