Game shooting - Which aftermarket Teague Super Extended 20 gauge choke combination ?

[Shotkam]

I know it is unwise to get too hung up with chokes but the correct or incorrect choke selection can have a significant impact on your shooting. 

Having spent some time in discussion with Teague and considerable research of my own, it is clear that 12 and 20 gauge do perform differently with different choke combinations.

A 20 gauge inherently will have a longer length of shot in the cartridge, consequently it will hold a tighter pattern for a longer distance over a 12 gauge. However there is no available data I could find for this.

The heavier the load the more open choke is required to preserve the pattern.

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not. For example a 28gram cartridge 20G will maintain a better pattern at the longest ranges through 1/2 and 3/4 than anything else, whereas a 32g 20g will give optimum performance through 1/4 and 1/2.

I plan to get on the pattern plate finally tomorrow to test the data, using a suitable number of shots of course to be statistically accurate.

Really interested on what is required to achieve the 3 hits on bird for a humane dispatch.

I could post my findings if others are interested.

 

[London Best]

Get out more and go shooting!

[CaptC]

36 minutes ago, London Best said:

Get out more and go shooting!

With the deepest respect, an interesting technical read bit London Best is quite right - get out more and stop fretting! I've just been given an old box of Gyttorp Roda 70mm No 3's - should be interesting in my Browning 425 Sporter 20 bore at high birds!

[Shotkam]

Fair comments !

I plan to spend the majority of any time I have whatsoever engaged in shooting of some shape or form, 13 syndicate days lined up and should be at least 2 beaters days, pest control and clay shooting so no shortage.

Fail to plan - plan to fail and I just prefer to put everything in my favour to get results, just like any successful sportsperson does. If there are gaping holes in the pattern I certainly wish to know about it, which is why I plan to have as near perfect as possible gun / cartridge / choke combination.

It helps to have OCD of course.

Doesn't sound as though people will be too interested in me posting the results then.

Each to their own.

 

[Old farrier]

Go for it

i personally think you’re a little tight on your choke choice with the twenty 

I also found the 32 grams would blow the pattern 

after a fair amount of time and trial I settled on 28 gram sipes 5 shot beretta fixed choke tight cylinder and slack 1/4 

always interesting to see what a different gun and cartridges can do 

All the best 

OF

[Smokersmith]

There’s nothing wrong with doing a bit of research to know your set up is suitable for the ranges you’ll be shooting at.

A lot of shooting is about confidence … and if this research helps then good on you. 

I’d start in the 3/8ths range and you’ll not be far out.

[wymberley]

38 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Fair comments !

I plan to spend the majority of any time I have whatsoever engaged in shooting of some shape or form, 13 syndicate days lined up and should be at least 2 beaters days, pest control and clay shooting so no shortage.

Fail to plan - plan to fail and I just prefer to put everything in my favour to get results, just like any successful sportsperson does. If there are gaping holes in the pattern I certainly wish to know about it, which is why I plan to have as near perfect as possible gun / cartridge / choke combination.

It helps to have OCD of course.

Doesn't sound as though people will be too interested in me posting the results then.

Each to their own.

 

If you have an interest and take enjoyment from doing it, then get stuck in and to blazes with everyone else. 

What can ruin a pattern is the pellets running down and against the barrel wall and consequently getting distorted in the process. For an equal load weight which is going to have the greater wall surface, the 20 or the 12?

Forget the 3 hits. You need those on every shot and you're talking a scatter gun where everything is taken by average. To get the 3 requires 6 on average so as your pattern tests will rely on an average figure, it's the six you need. Under 50 yards you can ignore shot string so as it's game and, say, pheasant, 6 times the number of birds that will fit into any specified area. There is an alternative means of doing this - the American way which BASC adopted, but the answer is also 6.

NB The previous two posts weren't there when I started typing.

Edited October 19, 2021 by wymberley

[Shotkam]

20 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

There’s nothing wrong with doing a bit of research to know your set up is suitable for the ranges you’ll be shooting at.

A lot of shooting is about confidence … and if this research helps then good on you. 

I’d start in the 3/8ths range and you’ll not be far out.

Yes, confidence as I discussed with someone just today.

Knowing you are not undergunned for certain targets is a confidence booster.

 

[Shotkam]

5 minutes ago, wymberley said:

If you have an interest and take enjoyment from doing it, then get stuck in and to blazes with everyone else. 

What can ruin a pattern is the pellets running down and against the barrel wall and consequently getting distorted in the process. For an equal load weight which is going to have the greater wall surface, the 20 or the 12?

Forget the 3 hits. You need those on every shot and you're talking a scatter gun where everything is taken by average. To get the 3 requires 6 on average so as your pattern tests will rely on an average figure, it's the six you need. Under 50 yards you can ignore shot string so as it's game and, say, pheasant, 6 times the number of birds that will fit into any specified area. There is an alternative means of doing this - the American way which BASC adopted, but the answer is also 6.

NB The previous two posts weren't there when I started typing.

Encouraging comments thanks. My objective is find as near perfect as possible cartridge / choke combination whereas the pattern and required energy fail at a similar range, hard I appreciate.

With antimony at 5 and diamond shot will help with distortion.

So are you suggesting 6 hits are required on a 5" diameter (120,mm) disc or is there a more accurate method of assessing the Pheasant kill zone?

Shot string - I recall it is so short in length below 50 yards it takes a fraction of a second to pass by the bird it is not worthy of consideration.

 

[Smokersmith]

8 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

So are you suggesting 6 hits are required on a 5" diameter (120,mm) disc or is there a more accurate method of assessing the Pheasant kill zone?

This is where I draw the line.

A good even spread of the right number of pellets in a 30” circle is enough for me.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

I know it is unwise to get too hung up with chokes but the correct or incorrect choke selection can have a significant impact on your shooting. 

Having spent some time in discussion with Teague and considerable research of my own, it is clear that 12 and 20 gauge do perform differently with different choke combinations.

A 20 gauge inherently will have a longer length of shot in the cartridge, consequently it will hold a tighter pattern for a longer distance over a 12 gauge. However there is no available data I could find for this.

The heavier the load the more open choke is required to preserve the pattern.

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not. For example a 28gram cartridge 20G will maintain a better pattern at the longest ranges through 1/2 and 3/4 than anything else, whereas a 32g 20g will give optimum performance through 1/4 and 1/2.

I plan to get on the pattern plate finally tomorrow to test the data, using a suitable number of shots of course to be statistically accurate.

Really interested on what is required to achieve the 3 hits on bird for a humane dispatch.

I could post my findings if others are interested.

 

 

I know it is unwise to get too hung up with chokes but the correct or incorrect choke selection can have a significant impact on your shooting.  - Only at the extremes....  IC and LM will deal with anything out to 40 and 45 yards respectively with a 28g no7 or 32g no 6.

Having spent some time in discussion with Teague and considerable research of my own, it is clear that 12 and 20 gauge do perform differently with different choke combinations. - No they dn't if the chokes are producing 60% pattern at 40 yards (both with mod choke) they are doing the same however you might meed 20 thou choke on the 12b but only 16 thou on 20b to get same result due to the smaller bore.

A 20 gauge inherently will have a longer length of shot in the cartridge, consequently it will hold a tighter pattern for a longer distance over a 12 gauge.  - No it doesn't, due to compresion of shot often the pattern is wider due to more damage shot caused by higher pressure of longer shot column.

However there is no available data I could find for this.

The heavier the load the more open choke is required to preserve the pattern. - Only at the extreme of shot column length, effectively the excess pressure blows pattern due to more damage to pellets but you can also have choke blowing the pattern if too much compression too quickly at muzzle.

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not. For example a 28gram cartridge 20G will maintain a better pattern at the longest ranges through 1/2 and 3/4 than anything else, whereas a 32g 20g will give optimum performance through 1/4 and 1/2. - Depends on the cartridge and only at the margins - for instance my 410 with 21g loads will print best pattern with a Light Mod Choke, after that, more choke gives worse pattern due to blowing up pattern at muzzle and 410 has longer shot column than 20b.

I plan to get on the pattern plate finally tomorrow to test the data, using a suitable number of shots of course to be statistically accurate. - Worthwhile, take photos and  run up from Cyl to full for each and work out what gives most shot in 30 inch circle and best distributed, both my LM and Mod choke give same numbers in 30 inch circle but the LM gives the best distribution.

Really interested on what is required to achieve the 3 hits on bird for a humane dispatch. - 6 pellets required to give 3 in vital areas.

 

I could post my findings if others are interested.

[tignme]

shoot were the target is going not were its been.  Most game guns are choked quater n threequarter.

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Shotkam said:

Doesn't sound as though people will be too interested in me posting the results then

Yep post your finding please, got a twenty going to Teague in November so will be interested to see what occurs. I usually shoot 24g/25g and 28g in 6s  through full and 3/4 but have been given some Blackgold 30g 6s and 32g 4s and 5s a new experience for me

[Shotkam]

10 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

 

I know it is unwise to get too hung up with chokes but the correct or incorrect choke selection can have a significant impact on your shooting.  - Only at the extremes....  IC and LM will deal with anything out to 40 and 45 yards respectively with a 28g no7 or 32g no 6.

I AM PRIMARILY INTERESTING IN BIRDS 40 - 55 YARDS RANGE HENCE MY INTEREST IN REFINING WHAT I USE TO GET THE JOB DONE.

Having spent some time in discussion with Teague and considerable research of my own, it is clear that 12 and 20 gauge do perform differently with different choke combinations. - No they dn't if the chokes are producing 60% pattern at 40 yards (both with mod choke) they are doing the same however you might meed 20 thou choke on the 12b but only 16 thou on 20b to get same result due to the smaller bore.

THIS IS WHAT TEAGUE INFORMED ME.

A 20 gauge inherently will have a longer length of shot in the cartridge, consequently it will hold a tighter pattern for a longer distance over a 12 gauge.  - No it doesn't, due to compresion of shot often the pattern is wider due to more damage shot caused by higher pressure of longer shot column.

THIS IS WHAT TEAGUE INFORMED ME - DEFORMATION IS LARGELY REDUCED BY HIGHER ANTIMONY. - PERHAPS YOU ARE BETTER INFORMED THAN TEAGUE.

However there is no available data I could find for this.

The heavier the load the more open choke is required to preserve the pattern. - Only at the extreme of shot column length, effectively the excess pressure blows pattern due to more damage to pellets but you can also have choke blowing the pattern if too much compression too quickly at muzzle.

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not. For example a 28gram cartridge 20G will maintain a better pattern at the longest ranges through 1/2 and 3/4 than anything else, whereas a 32g 20g will give optimum performance through 1/4 and 1/2. - Depends on the cartridge and only at the margins - for instance my 410 with 21g loads will print best pattern with a Light Mod Choke, after that, more choke gives worse pattern due to blowing up pattern at muzzle and 410 has longer shot column than 20b.

THE PATTERN PLATE WILL REVEAL THE ANSWERS.

I plan to get on the pattern plate finally tomorrow to test the data, using a suitable number of shots of course to be statistically accurate. - Worthwhile, take photos and  run up from Cyl to full for each and work out what gives most shot in 30 inch circle and best distributed, both my LM and Mod choke give same numbers in 30 inch circle but the LM gives the best distribution.

EXACTLY MY PLAN - I HAVE PAPER SO CAN SAVE THE SHOT RECORDS.

Really interested on what is required to achieve the 3 hits on bird for a humane dispatch. - 6 pellets required to give 3 in vital areas.

SO JUST AS WYMBERLY ADVISED - THANKS FOR ALL THE REALLY USEFULL INFO.

 

 

 

[Smokersmith]

2 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

I AM PRIMARILY INTERESTING IN BIRDS 40 - 55 YARDS RANGE HENCE MY INTEREST IN REFINING WHAT I USE TO GET THE JOB DONE.

Use a 12 bore then.

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Shotkam said:

 

I have been thinking I have been under gunned on some days but apparently not.

 

All this tech stuff is very interesting, but in my experience most people who think they are under gunned are either:

a) missing

b) have no idea of range

c)have no conception of the effective range of what is really a short range gun

or d) all of the above

As Stonepark says, 32 gram of 6’s through a fairly light choke will do all you will ever need. And as Smokersmith says, through a twelve bore gun.

[Shotkam]

6 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Use a 12 bore then.

Fair comment - but I have what I have so have to limit the range to what is acceptable.

[Shotkam]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

All this tech stuff is very interesting, but in my experience most people who think they are under gunned are either:

a) missing

b) have no idea of range

c)have no conception of the effective range of what is really a short range gun

or d) all of the above

As Stonepark says, 32 gram of 6’s through a fairly light choke will do all you will ever need. And as Smokersmith says, through a twelve bore gun.

Fair enough, but I don't fall into any of the above categories, but I agree many do.

Light chokes - Yes, probably why Teague recommend in a 20 with 32g loads using max, 1/4 and 1/2.

Could someone remind me at what range the effective energy of No6 fails compared with No5 for an accepted clean kill, given that 6 hits is a given by those who have a greater knowledge than most of the required ballistics?

Having always thought that No 5 were the accepted size to be using, I now realise that No 6 may be a far better choice to match required energy with the required pattern density.

All these Shooting magazine articles advocating No 5 for Pheasant shooting for the last decade or 2 now sound so wrong  based on Whymberly's and Stoneparks information which is clearly accurate !

 

[Stonepark]

26 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Fair enough, but I don't fall into any of the above categories, but I agree many do.

Light chokes - Yes, probably why Teague recommend in a 20 with 32g loads using max, 1/4 and 1/2.

Could someone remind me at what range the effective energy of No6 fails compared with No5 for an accepted clean kill, given that 6 hits is a given by those who have a greater knowledge than most of the required ballistics?

Having always thought that No 5 were the accepted size to be using, I now realise that No 6 may be a far better choice to match required energy with the required pattern density.

All these Shooting magazine articles advocating No 5 for Pheasant shooting for the last decade or 2 now sound so wrong  based on Whymberly's and Stoneparks information which is clearly accurate !

 

No 6 fails  in energy at 50 yards, No5 at 60 yards where both are about 1ftlb.

Maximum range in therefore governed by which cartridge/choke combination can put a minimum of 120 pellets (i prefer 150) in a 30 inch circle and still meet the minimum energy requirement.

It will be interesting to see your results and see what the maximum ranges end up as, especially if you are shooting a 20b as most of my testing is either 410 or 12b.

Most Shooting magazines tend to gloss over some facts which contribute to some longer range 'kills', the most important being the no of pricked birds which are not killed dead in the air but instead killed on impact with ground or wounded and picked by dogs.

They also tend to gloss over a lot (but not all) of the so called high bird shooters have custom guns, which between longer chokes, longer forcing cones etc can add a couple yards to any cartridges range over an off the shelf gun but still does not justify the extreme ranges at which some shoot, but is an advantage.

 

[wymberley]

27 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

I AM PRIMARILY INTERESTING IN BIRDS 40 - 55 YARDS RANGE HENCE MY INTEREST IN REFINING WHAT I USE TO GET THE JOB DONE.

All this talk of choke is only really of concern at any given maximum range. At anything less, pretty much any choke could well suffice.

Game, so let's take a hen pheasant with a vulnerable (NOT vital area of 31 sq". So with the 30" in play we have some 23 targets requiring 6x23=138 pellets which with 1&1/16oz of 6s equates to circa IC.

Now the fun starts.

When you do your pattern checks, add an inner 20" circle and all things being equal on average you would find that for IC just some 67 pellets are to be found in the 20 to 30" ring the area of which is 393 sq" where we'd find some 13 birds with a reduced average of a 5 pellet strike. Obviously, this means that the inner 20" circle holding some 10 birds will be hit by the remaining 76 pellets giving an average 7+ pellet strike. As you increase choke this discrepency will also increase. So what happened? Gauss did. This means that the full 30" is never fully effective and rarely if ever exceeds some 25"

It's worth remembering that a shotgun is a short range instrument.

[Shotkam]

1 minute ago, Stonepark said:

No 6 fails  in energy at 50 yards, No5 at 60 yards where both are about 1ftlb.

Maximum range in therefore governed by which cartridge/choke combination can put a minimum of 120 pellets (i prefer 150) in a 30 inch circle and still meet the minimum energy requirement.

It will be interesting to see your results and see what the maximum ranges end up as, especially if you are shooting a 20b as most of my testing is either 410 or 12b.

Most Shooting magazines tend to gloss over some facts which contribute to some longer range 'kills', the most important being the no of pricked birds which are not killed dead in the air but instead killed on impact with ground or wounded and picked by dogs.

They also tend to gloss over a lot (but not all) of the so called high bird shooters have custom guns, which between longer chokes, longer forcing cones etc can add a couple yards to any cartridges range over an off the shelf gun but still does not justify the extreme ranges at which some shoot, but is an advantage.

 

Brilliant - 2 of the most important figures there are.

Yes hoping the rain eases up for tomorrow.

I will run through the Teague super extended chokes, record the data and get some photos also if possible.

Not trying to re-invent the wheel, just trying to determine what combination will work for me.

Where I shoot there are plenty of 40 - 55 yard birds that knowone shoots at and they are all available to shoot at before the pass at 90 degrees and I just want to be confident that what I am using will effectively work up to a certain distance be it 45 or 55 yards.

[Shotkam]

4 minutes ago, wymberley said:

All this talk of choke is only really of concern at any given maximum range. At anything less, pretty much any choke could well suffice.

Game, so let's take a hen pheasant with a vulnerable (NOT vital area of 31 sq". So with the 30" in play we have some 23 targets requiring 6x23=138 pellets which with 1&1/16oz of 6s equates to circa IC.

Now the fun starts.

When you do your pattern checks, add an inner 20" circle and all things being equal on average you would find that for IC just some 67 pellets are to be found in the 20 to 30" ring the area of which is 393 sq" where we'd find some 13 birds with a reduced average of a 5 pellet strike. Obviously, this means that the inner 20" circle holding some 10 birds will be hit by the remaining 76 pellets giving an average 7+ pellet strike. As you increase choke this discrepency will also increase. So what happened? Gauss did. This means that the full 30" is never fully effective and rarely if ever exceeds some 25"

It's worth remembering that a shotgun is a short range instrument.

There is a lot to know, which is why very few show an interest.

I have an interest which is why I post.

Yes I can easily add 20" inner circle.

By what Stonepark says and I know people have views on energy required for a clean kill, 50 yards for No 6 and 60yards for No 5 is the energy limiting factor. Then all is left is how many pellets needed in the circle to give the text book required result for a clean humane 6 pellet kill.

[Gas seal]

Hi Shotcam this may help give you some ideas. Don’t go to far with your testing, so it’s not fun to do. These are old patterns from almost twenty years ago. They got a bit wet in my shed. Each segment is the same area. I made a wire template the same as the segments ,to put on the pattern paper, now I just look at the pattern paper. Are you using a metal plate, if so take photos of the pattern. I would try 28 grams of different size shot first. Good luck with it. I found number 4 shot in lead gave me the most even pattern.

[Scully]

You do realise don’t you, that when you miss ( and everybody does ) it won’t be the choke, your cartridge or even your gun? It’s you. 
So what happens when you miss? Is it back to the drawing board?