Game shooting - Which aftermarket Teague Super Extended 20 gauge choke combination ?

[JDog]

The OP is clearly over thinking this matter.

[WalkedUp]

Choke will give you inches but you miss by feet. 

Pattern plates are a 2D representation of a 3D object, but if they give you comfort then that is fine. I too like to make my decisions on empirical evidence, so get out on the clays etc. My main game gun is multichoke but I resist the temptation to fiddle as a steady hand at the tiller wins out in the long run. If you change chokes give it two years to see if you like them, if not change and give the next set 4...

[London Best]

One of the problems is that there are so many fewer pellets in an ounce of No.5 compared to No.6. 
So you need approximately a 25% heavier load with No.5 to achieve the pattern density of No.6. 
That is possibly why No.6 has been the standard for pheasants for about 130 years.

[Blueflame]

Hi Shotkam, I understand your enthusiasm to find the best combinations of cartridge & choke for your gun. I shoot Miroku MK 60 High Pheasant 20 gauge for most of my game days, these are fixed choke. Originally bored full & 3/4 which was way over the top for my shooting so I sent them to Teague and had them bored to 1/2 & 1/4 which I thought the best compromise . I decided to pattern the guns with different cartridges to see what looked best. 

No one so far has mentioned pattern quality , this has a bigger impact on actual results than shot count alone within the 30” circle. Patterns can be assessed by the number of 5” voids in the circle. I found was that there were quite a difference in pattern quality/ density amongst cartridge brands especially with the 1/4 choke . All the patterns were shot at 30yds as the pattern range stops there .

Using RC semi magnum 5’s 32grm plastic wad the patterns were very open and would not be consistent. I tried Gamebore Black gold 28grm 6’s fibre wad, these were better. Best of all we’re the RC Sipe 28grm 6’s ( uk 51/2 ) which were very good quality and worked well in both chokes. Almost identical but slightly denser patterns were achieved with ELY VIP 28grm no 6’s fibre. That was 4 seasons back and I have been very impressed with the Sipes & VIP’s performance in the field. Confidence is a  great thing when shooting.

Good luck with your search.

 

 

 

[Stonepark]

20 minutes ago, Blueflame said:

Using RC semi magnum 5’s 32grm plastic wad the patterns were very open and would not be consistent.

They are using 3% antimony shot (tempered) in a cartridge operating at pressures that require 5% antimony (supertempered) to prevent damage to the shot which results in open patterns.

[Lloyd90]

3 hours ago, London Best said:

One of the problems is that there are so many fewer pellets in an ounce of No.5 compared to No.6. 
So you need approximately a 25% heavier load with No.5 to achieve the pattern density of No.6. 
That is possibly why No.6 has been the standard for pheasants for about 130 years.

How much more is in no 7 shot? Cos that’s what I have used the last 2 seasons walked up and they are cracking. 

[Stonepark]

1 minute ago, Lloyd90 said:

How much more is in no 7 shot? Cos that’s what I have used the last 2 seasons walked up and they are cracking. 

No 5 - 220/oz

No6 - 270/oz

No7 - 340/oz

[Gas seal]

Hi Blueflame I agree with you about pattern quality. With your fixed chokes you tried different cartridges and found the best for your gun. number four shot in lead gave me the best even pattern in my 20gauge. The best even pattern in my 28gauge was with lead number three shot. This was a few years ago with hard shot, it patterned better. I don’t use or load lead now. I use 50mm extended chokes and I found them better, and I don’t change them. Top gunmakers would polish the chokes of a new gun to get a better pattern, or give the new owner confidence. I was taught it’s confidence that kills not just a good gun. When Shotkam patterns his gun and decides what cartridges to shoot with confidence that can only be a good thing. Good luck to him.

[London Best]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

How much more is in no 7 shot? Cos that’s what I have used the last 2 seasons walked up and they are cracking. 

To be honest, I use more No.7 for game than No.6 because I shoot mostly partridge and the pheasants get the same on a partridge day. The only time I go up to No.6 is for a pheasant day where the partridge are more infrequent or none at all. 
But I have total confidence in both sizes, don’t really mind which I use, and find more birds with only broken wings with No.5 shot.

[Shotkam]

9 hours ago, Scully said:

You do realise don’t you, that when you miss ( and everybody does ) it won’t be the choke, your cartridge or even your gun? It’s you. 
So what happens when you miss? Is it back to the drawing board? 
 

I like your sense of humour ! 😄

After some testing on the pattern plate today I can say with certainty it is the pattern failure which is the reason the birds fly on.

17 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Shotcam this may help give you some ideas. Don’t go to far with your testing, so it’s not fun to do. These are old patterns from almost twenty years ago. They got a bit wet in my shed. Each segment is the same area. I made a wire template the same as the segments ,to put on the pattern paper, now I just look at the pattern paper. Are you using a metal plate, if so take photos of the pattern. I would try 28 grams of different size shot first. Good luck with it. I found number 4 shot in lead gave me the most even pattern.

 

17 hours ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Shotcam this may help give you some ideas. Don’t go to far with your testing, so it’s not fun to do. These are old patterns from almost twenty years ago. They got a bit wet in my shed. Each segment is the same area. I made a wire template the same as the segments ,to put on the pattern paper, now I just look at the pattern paper. Are you using a metal plate, if so take photos of the pattern. I would try 28 grams of different size shot first. Good luck with it. I found number 4 shot in lead gave me the most even pattern.

How interesting. To travel forward in time this far and to find I had the same result today is uncanny !!!

7 hours ago, London Best said:

One of the problems is that there are so many fewer pellets in an ounce of No.5 compared to No.6. 
So you need approximately a 25% heavier load with No.5 to achieve the pattern density of No.6. 
That is possibly why No.6 has been the standard for pheasants for about 130 years.

!00% agree after doing some limited testing today.

[Shotkam]

6 hours ago, Blueflame said:

Hi Shotkam, I understand your enthusiasm to find the best combinations of cartridge & choke for your gun. I shoot Miroku MK 60 High Pheasant 20 gauge for most of my game days, these are fixed choke. Originally bored full & 3/4 which was way over the top for my shooting so I sent them to Teague and had them bored to 1/2 & 1/4 which I thought the best compromise . I decided to pattern the guns with different cartridges to see what looked best. 

No one so far has mentioned pattern quality , this has a bigger impact on actual results than shot count alone within the 30” circle. Patterns can be assessed by the number of 5” voids in the circle. I found was that there were quite a difference in pattern quality/ density amongst cartridge brands especially with the 1/4 choke . All the patterns were shot at 30yds as the pattern range stops there .

Using RC semi magnum 5’s 32grm plastic wad the patterns were very open and would not be consistent. I tried Gamebore Black gold 28grm 6’s fibre wad, these were better. Best of all we’re the RC Sipe 28grm 6’s ( uk 51/2 ) which were very good quality and worked well in both chokes. Almost identical but slightly denser patterns were achieved with ELY VIP 28grm no 6’s fibre. That was 4 seasons back and I have been very impressed with the Sipes & VIP’s performance in the field. Confidence is a  great thing when shooting.

Good luck with your search.

 

 

 

Thanks, that was interesting to hear. Pattern quality is at the top of my list and after pattern testing today there is work to be done.

[Shotkam]

9 hours ago, JDog said:

The OP is clearly over thinking this matter.

I think I should have thought more about gun / cartridge combination years ago.

[Shotkam]

18 hours ago, Stonepark said:

No 6 fails  in energy at 50 yards, No5 at 60 yards where both are about 1ftlb.

Maximum range in therefore governed by which cartridge/choke combination can put a minimum of 120 pellets (i prefer 150) in a 30 inch circle and still meet the minimum energy requirement.

It will be interesting to see your results and see what the maximum ranges end up as, especially if you are shooting a 20b as most of my testing is either 410 or 12b.

Most Shooting magazines tend to gloss over some facts which contribute to some longer range 'kills', the most important being the no of pricked birds which are not killed dead in the air but instead killed on impact with ground or wounded and picked by dogs.

They also tend to gloss over a lot (but not all) of the so called high bird shooters have custom guns, which between longer chokes, longer forcing cones etc can add a couple yards to any cartridges range over an off the shelf gun but still does not justify the extreme ranges at which some shoot, but is an advantage.

 

After some limited testing today all I can say at this stage is what you (Stonepark) and Wimberley have always advised is 100% correct !

I have done no counting as yet but with all my testing today done at exactly 50 yards I can say with confidence with 5% antimony 32g 5s fibre in a browning 20g with Teague super extended chokes - all the patterns failed. this was from 1/4 to 3/4 choke.

I switched to 34g 4 1/2 and surprisingly the pellets were a lot more evenly distributed which surprised me.

Planning to waste no more time with that brand and moving onto Hull 32g no 6 fibre.

I have all the pattern papers saved so I could do some counting, however I see no point as it is clear that the combinations I tried in that gun configuration are not good enough.

 

[wymberley]

15 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

Thanks, that was interesting to hear. Pattern quality is at the top of my list and after pattern testing today there is work to be done.

A word of caution, the smaller the shot the less energy leeway there is. 350/oz for 7s as per my Blue Diamond and Super Game  High Bird is fine but the 20 bore Supreme Game in 25g flavour at 375 may not suit although fine for me when decoying pigeon. The 28g is spot on the 340. It's best to check.

Did you try the non overlapping 5" disc check? I think you'd be surprised at the numbers 

[Shotkam]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

A word of caution, the smaller the shot the less energy leeway there is. 350/oz for 7s as per my Blue Diamond and Super Game  High Bird is fine but the 20 bore Supreme Game in 25g flavour at 375 may not suit although fine for me when decoying pigeon. The 28g is spot on the 340. It's best to check.

Did you try the non overlapping 5" disc check? I think you'd be surprised at the numbers 

At least you didn't  say I told you so 🙂

I'm thinking High Pheasant Extreme 32 gram - which is approx. 6 3/4 shot size.

Mmm - not done that test or any counting yet - I think you had a good post about the discs on the other thread.

There were just way way too many large gaps in those patterns.

I will do some counting on the slightly better results.

[Stonepark]

59 minutes ago, Shotkam said:

At least you didn't  say I told you so 🙂

I'm thinking High Pheasant Extreme 32 gram - which is approx. 6 3/4 shot size.

Mmm - not done that test or any counting yet - I think you had a good post about the discs on the other thread.

There were just way way too many large gaps in those patterns.

I will do some counting on the slightly better results.

It sounds like you are making progress.

 

[wymberley]

2 hours ago, Shotkam said:

After some limited testing today all I can say at this stage is what you (Stonepark) and Wimberley have always advised is 100% correct !

I have done no counting as yet but with all my testing today done at exactly 50 yards I can say with confidence with 5% antimony 32g 5s fibre in a browning 20g with Teague super extended chokes - all the patterns failed. this was from 1/4 to 3/4 choke.

I switched to 34g 4 1/2 and surprisingly the pellets were a lot more evenly distributed which surprised me.

Planning to waste no more time with that brand and moving onto Hull 32g no 6 fibre.

I have all the pattern papers saved so I could do some counting, however I see no point as it is clear that the combinations I tried in that gun configuration are not good enough.

 

 

2 hours ago, Shotkam said:

At least you didn't  say I told you so 🙂

I'm thinking High Pheasant Extreme 32 gram - which is approx. 6 3/4 shot size.

Mmm - not done that test or any counting yet - I think you had a good post about the discs on the other thread.

There were just way way too many large gaps in those patterns.

I will do some counting on the slightly better results.

Have to confess that I'm confused. If the two highlighted cartridges are one and the same, then I think you might just find that the shot size is a slightly - of no consequence - undersize 5.

[Shotkam]

23 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

It sounds like you are making progress.

 

It's sometimes the case that you cant see the woods for the trees. So many have opinions based on different experiences but as is usually the case - the science comes to the forefront.

All said and done, for consistent clean humane kills you need to be close to what your equipment is capable of, which for a 20 guage  looks to be closer to 50 than 60 yards and a 12 below 60.

I shall gather some more data from the patterns I now have - they may photograph well. Some I need to add the circles as I wanted to get the shots done before the wind dropped.

It is however an enjoyable experience.

[Shotkam]

2 hours ago, wymberley said:

 

Have to confess that I'm confused. If the two highlighted cartridges are one and the same, then I think you might just find that the shot size is a slightly - of no consequence - undersize 5.

The 2 loads used today are continental - I have called them what they are called 5 and 4 1/2. Of course they are 41/3 and 4.

The next on test will be 6 3/4 so they is a marked difference there, with approx. 75 more pellets in the pattern.

I just need to address the pattern failing and I am fairly confident I can achieve that in due course.

I am not interested in the fluke kills that is without fail the norm. on higher bird shoots where the energy radically exceeds the capability of the pattern.

Experience shooters can clearly see when a bird is hit a non lethal strike by its behavior and it's not great for shooting.

Looking forward to the next run of testing.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Shotkam

[Scully]

3 hours ago, Shotkam said:

I like your sense of humour ! 😄

.

🙂 It’s true! When you miss, it won’t be the cartridge or the choke. 
There are countless guns out there, even experienced guns, searching for that guarantee of success, which doesn’t exist. They will have a bad day with a cartridge they swore by last season, and then doubt creeps in, so they swap the choke, but because of that niggling doubt it doesn’t work, so they see someone having a good day and ask what cartridges they’re using, and before you know it they’re going round in circles chasing that elusive recipe for success…..again. 
There are no truly ‘bad’ game cartridges out there, but plenty of inconsistent shooters. If you use cartridges at ranges for which they were intended, and put that pattern in the right place then you’ll kill that bird stone dead and it will fold in the air. 

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

There are no truly ‘bad’ game cartridges out there,

The resent black case Clear Pigeon were pretty close

[Walker570]

7 hours ago, London Best said:

To be honest, I use more No.7 for game than No.6 because I shoot mostly partridge and the pheasants get the same on a partridge day. The only time I go up to No.6 is for a pheasant day where the partridge are more infrequent or none at all. 
But I have total confidence in both sizes, don’t really mind which I use, and find more birds with only broken wings with No.5 shot.

I go back far enough where an ounce and an eighth of 5s was the standard load for everyhting. Until Impax 7s came in that is, then they became the go for cartridge.

Personally I shoot 7s  as a rule but I do have some factory sixes which funnily enough seem to do the same job.  Put 'em in the pattern.....should have taken my own advice last Friday, couldn't hit a barn door

[Scully]

35 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

The resent black case Clear Pigeon were pretty close

Is that because you cant hit anything with them? 🙂

I have a mate who doesn’t like SIPE, and for the same reason! SIPE are my go to game cartridge. 
I am a big fan of Clear Pigeon, both in the clear and green case, but haven’t tried the black ones. Are they a different load? 

[Shotkam]

11 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

I go back far enough where an ounce and an eighth of 5s was the standard load for everyhting. Until Impax 7s came in that is, then they became the go for cartridge.

Personally I shoot 7s  as a rule but I do have some factory sixes which funnily enough seem to do the same job.  Put 'em in the pattern.....should have taken my own advice last Friday, couldn't hit a barn door

When it is mentioned that a shotgun is a scatter gun there could be no truer a statement.

Basically we have a disc of shot leaving the gun following the line of a shallow tapered ice cream cone shape, increasing in diameter the further the disc travels from the end of the barrels. As soon as it reaches circa. 60 yards even with 12 gauge using 40 gram 4s the pattern has failed to a degree that makes consistent humane shooting impossible.

Whatever choke, gun or usable cartridge combination anyone cares to develop nothing can alter the cone line the shot takes.

I am fairly certain that I will find a combination that will allow the 20 gauge to be consistent on 50 yard birds, but reaching for the 55 yard birds may not be acceptably humane even though a percentage may be stone dead, as the consistency will have dropped considerably.

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Is that because you cant hit anything with them? 🙂

Couldn't hit a cows **** with a spade with the damn things😔 used the original clear case one for everything, they were the reason I changed to Eley Pigeon Select and HV. Needed a chimney sweep to clean the barrels to.