Worst season in 22 years

[jall25]

48 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Could this be why there are so many travelling synicates ?   I enjoyed running our syndicate shoot always a buzz and a bit of banter. Eventually it became a heavy weight around my neck and I left and decided to buy my shooting by the day. Yes it cost me much more each season but I still get to shoot with folks I know and have met before fairly frequently and I normally run a couple of days a year for a group of known friends at regular known shoots.

Keeping your birds on the ground takes time and lots of effort and often a do it yourself  shoot just doesn't have the time.

 

I think the thing doing it yourself - with your own syndicate is that you see so much more than just shooting 

Th opportunity to increase biodiversity and leave a real legacy is something really worth grasping and never letting go

[Walker570]

48 minutes ago, jall25 said:

I think the thing doing it yourself - with your own syndicate is that you see so much more than just shooting 

Th opportunity to increase biodiversity and leave a real legacy is something really worth grasping and never letting go

100%

[Scully]

14 hours ago, jall25 said:

I think the thing doing it yourself - with your own syndicate is that you see so much more than just shooting 

Th opportunity to increase biodiversity and leave a real legacy is something really worth grasping and never letting go

Undoubtedly, it just becomes difficult when no one else sees it that way. 

[London Best]

My experience of DIY shoots is exactly that.......you are going to be doing it yourself, or at best with one other. The other eight members will always have varying excuses why they cannot get to work parties, or why they must leave them early, or why they will be late arriving. Or even why they forgot it was their week on the feed rota. 
The last time I was part of a DIY shoot the organiser gave me the greater part of my fee back every season because he and I were the only ones to put in any effort.

Like Walker570, I now buy most of my driven shooting by the day. I still mostly get to shoot with the same group of friends and we see different shoots. Yes, the cost is more and I miss the ‘keepering (sometimes), but the quality of the shooting is generally better on a full-time ‘keepered estate.

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, London Best said:

My experience of DIY shoots is exactly that.......you are going to be doing it yourself, or at best with one other. The other eight members will always have varying excuses why they cannot get to work parties, or why they must leave them early, or why they will be late arriving. Or even why they forgot it was their week on the feed rota. 
The last time I was part of a DIY shoot the organiser gave me the greater part of my fee back every season because he and I were the only ones to put in any effort.

Like Walker570, I now buy most of my driven shooting by the day. I still mostly get to shoot with the same group of friends and we see different shoots. Yes, the cost is more and I miss the ‘keepering (sometimes), but the quality of the shooting is generally better on a full-time ‘keepered estate.

The system of ‘working’ guns paying less isn’t a bad one and some successful syndicates are run that way. The lazy members with a wheat allergy can easily be switched to the ‘non-working’ gun category. They then have to get their check book out!

 

 

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Fellside said:

The system of ‘working’ guns paying less isn’t a bad one and some successful syndicates are run that way. The lazy members with a wheat allergy can easily be switched to the ‘non-working’ gun category. They then have to get their check book out!

 

 

The problem with that system is that it would cause division and possibly bad feeling between members, when, really, for a successful team you all need to be the best of friends.

[Fellside]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

The problem with that system is that it would cause division and possibly bad feeling between members, when, really, for a successful team you all need to be the best of friends.

It can do LB…..depending on how it’s managed. Lazy people who expect others to do their gamekeeping can cause division too. In my experience, if everyone ‘signs up’ to the agreement before hand, they have no reason for falling out….mostly…?

They usually find plenty of other reasons anyway…?!

[Jim Neal]

Our syndicate is, I suppose, another typical example of the few doing the work for the many to enjoy.

I look after a big chunk of it, with two pens making two woodland drives for later on and 4 drives of assorted covers/plantations to get stuck in to for the early part of the season.  We stock 50% of our birds on my patch.  The shoot captain does one other pen with a cover attached, another guy does similar elsewhere and then there's one other wood that doesn't have a cover which is looked after by one further member, but we only chuck a couple of hundred in there now.  Our woods are dotted around a total of roughly 2,000 acres of mixed arable and grazing land, rather than being all in one lump.

I try not to add up all the hours I spend on the shoot because if I thought about it too much I'd most certainly jack it in as being untenable 😦

However, I love doing what I do and it gives a great sense of satisfaction watching it all come together on shoot days.  It all falls apart on occasion too, but you have to be philosophical and learn from your mistakes.  My first few seasons were a massive learning curve and a lot of hard work, but now I'm 8 seasons in and I'm starting to feel like I'm more in control of what happens, rather than feeling like a passenger!

It's just a simple law of life - most people can't be bothered to push themselves into making extra effort, so those who can do.

I don't pay the same subscriptions as other members and as long as I don't take the mickey I've pretty much got free reign to go out by myself and shoot vermin or have my own walkabouts towards the end of the season, which isn't on offer to any other syndicate members.  I've had many enjoyable outings shooting on my own over the years, which contributes as compensation for the graft put in.

We've tried having a system of fines for non-attendance of work days, but it wasn't very well enforced.  We tried making the subscriptions higher but then not taking wheat money on shoot days from those who'd attended work days, but there was again an inconsistency and a lot of moaning at the original outlay of money.

Whatever you try to do when running a DIY shoot it always boils down to the few doing the work for the many, so the few just have to take their perks and get on with what they enjoy.  It will always be so!

[Sweet11-87]

reading all of these comments im not massive on driven game shooting but the actual managment side of things really appeals to me. kinda like the idea of a sundays spent in the country doing land managment. might be worth looking around locally seeing whats about. cheers guys

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Sweet11-87 said:

reading all of these comments im not massive on driven game shooting but the actual managment side of things really appeals to me. kinda like the idea of a sundays spent in the country doing land managment. might be worth looking around locally seeing whats about. cheers guys

The reality is, you cannot run a shoot by spending Sunday’s in the country. 
Much more input than that is necessary.

The definition of a part-time gamekeeper is a full time job for part-time pay.

[Sweet11-87]

45 minutes ago, London Best said:

The reality is, you cannot run a shoot by spending Sunday’s in the country. 
Much more input than that is necessary.

The definition of a part-time gamekeeper is a full time job for part-time pay.

wasnt looking to run a shoot. what i was pointing out was that even the maintance side of being part of an organised shoot seems to be enjoyable. wonder why it gets left to a few so often.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

wasnt looking to run a shoot. what i was pointing out was that even the maintance side of being part of an organised shoot seems to be enjoyable. wonder why it gets left to a few so often.

Because people are inherently lazy!

[Scully]

30 minutes ago, Sweet11-87 said:

wasnt looking to run a shoot. what i was pointing out was that even the maintance side of being part of an organised shoot seems to be enjoyable. wonder why it gets left to a few so often.

Various reasons really. We began with the idea of creating a shoot, but it soon became apparent others just wanted to shoot. 
Some were shift workers so couldn’t commit to regular times, and there’s only so much you can do on your own. 
Others did permanent nights so Sunday mornings were no good for them. Another lived in fear of his wife, and spent most weekends out of season with his wife in their caravan pitched in Dumfries, and another was always ‘my turn to milk’. 🙂

Despite all this, all of them, as in ALL OF THEM, without fail, could always make it on shoot days. 🙂

It was never pushed as no one wanted to fall out with anyone, but it came close once or twice admittedly. 
Money given towards whatever needed doing, was never an issue. 

[Weihrauch17]

Running a shoot effectively is hard without a Keeper. who can spare the time needed  I took VS due to Covid last year a long story and if I lived near my shoot I would be up hand feeding etc daily but it's a 50 mile round trip and £12 in fuel a time so not feasable.  We have 2 or 3 days a year filling feeders and rely on them.  It has worked for 50 years along with some hand feeding but not this year.  Our shoot is off the beaten track you don't drive past it to get anywhere but the main release area was sold last year via the internet and had many many viewings and sold for a ridiculous price we did try and buy it.  I also fear it is being Poached on the back of that.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[jall25]

22 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Our syndicate is, I suppose, another typical example of the few doing the work for the many to enjoy.

I look after a big chunk of it, with two pens making two woodland drives for later on and 4 drives of assorted covers/plantations to get stuck in to for the early part of the season.  We stock 50% of our birds on my patch.  The shoot captain does one other pen with a cover attached, another guy does similar elsewhere and then there's one other wood that doesn't have a cover which is looked after by one further member, but we only chuck a couple of hundred in there now.  Our woods are dotted around a total of roughly 2,000 acres of mixed arable and grazing land, rather than being all in one lump.

I try not to add up all the hours I spend on the shoot because if I thought about it too much I'd most certainly jack it in as being untenable 😦

However, I love doing what I do and it gives a great sense of satisfaction watching it all come together on shoot days.  It all falls apart on occasion too, but you have to be philosophical and learn from your mistakes.  My first few seasons were a massive learning curve and a lot of hard work, but now I'm 8 seasons in and I'm starting to feel like I'm more in control of what happens, rather than feeling like a passenger!

It's just a simple law of life - most people can't be bothered to push themselves into making extra effort, so those who can do.

I don't pay the same subscriptions as other members and as long as I don't take the mickey I've pretty much got free reign to go out by myself and shoot vermin or have my own walkabouts towards the end of the season, which isn't on offer to any other syndicate members.  I've had many enjoyable outings shooting on my own over the years, which contributes as compensation for the graft put in.

We've tried having a system of fines for non-attendance of work days, but it wasn't very well enforced.  We tried making the subscriptions higher but then not taking wheat money on shoot days from those who'd attended work days, but there was again an inconsistency and a lot of moaning at the original outlay of money.

Whatever you try to do when running a DIY shoot it always boils down to the few doing the work for the many, so the few just have to take their perks and get on with what they enjoy.  It will always be so!

It really really does not have to be so

I get the beaters , pickers up , wives and girlfriends involved.

Feeding on your own can take take a full 2days to get round - 9.10 helpers and its a couple of hours

Making the effort to show people the way things work and getting them involved does really work

Granted you will not drag everyone along but as your success increases you will find so does your help

[jall25]

23 minutes ago, jall25 said:

It really really does not have to be so

I get the beaters , pickers up , wives and girlfriends involved.

Feeding on your own can take take a full 2days to get round - 9.10 helpers and its a couple of hours

Making the effort to show people the way things work and getting them involved does really work

Granted you will not drag everyone along but as your success increases you will find so does your help

You have a large shoot at circa 2000 acres - we have more land available than we use but its very easy to spread yourself too thin too

[Jim Neal]

You've found your Valhalla, hats of to you.  Hold on to your personnel for dear life, they really are an anomaly.

I'm stuck with normal people who can't even open a feed bag properly.  They will not be motivated to get more involved.

The more success I've had the less people feel inclined to participate because they think it's all taken care of without the need for their input!

Likewise, we don't use all of our acreage, we stick to the blocks of woodland and immediate surroundings plus a few other bits & bobs we keep for boundary days etc.

[Lloyd90]

I would be very happy to have my own land where I can put up my own pens. Sort the woods and just rough shoot myself or with the odd friend invited shooting over my dog. 
 

I do have some rough shooting lane as part of 1 club but none of the members are interested in doing any sort of work. There’s no pens, no feeders, and they just shoot a bit of overspill / wild birds. 
 

 

Sadly in other places everyone seems obsessed with driven shooting, even if the returns are awful. 
 

The other little syndicate I am on would be a fabulous rough shoot for a handful of people, but instead they have 9/10 guns and on most shoot days have a few of the guns not even firing a single shot. Average bags are probable around the 8-12 number, shooting every 2 weeks. 
 

It’s difficult to get people to change, and also people don’t seem to want to pay any more cost of running things. 
 

 

From what I have seen on shoots, I also think a lot of people aren’t keen for rough shooting because they can’t keep their dogs within range of gunshot.
 

Where as on a small driven shoot it doesn’t matter so much how far away or out of control the dog is as long as the birds go somewhat in the right direction. 
 

If only the half decent dogs were able to come along a lot of these pet dogs that get no training but thrown onto a shoot once a fortnight during the season would have to be left at home, and god forbid anyone tells the owner the dogs more of a nuisance than a help. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A cracking post Lloyd, sums it up nicely.

People are flush with cash but either time poor or just plain lazy. Consequently they will avoid small shoots where they are expected to work and pay more for a day or days where everything is done for them.

As for poorly trained and poorly run dogs, they are absolutely everywhere on all the small shoots I have been to recently. The bloody owners either do not understand the role of a well worked dog or just don't care and very few keepers will sack them off. Even when it is brought up in conversation and their tip is in danger of shrinking.

I thoroughly enjoy my driven days, the company is what makes the day as long as there are sufficient birds to be shot. The countryside is another great draw and can make a good day better.

Add in a good breakfast with plenty of chatting, a good team of beaters and pickers up and you have the perfect day and just need to be able to shoot on the day.

I take advice from PW Members on where to spend my money and have reached the conclusion that great days are out there and can be found.

[WalkedUp]

7 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

From what I have seen on shoots, I also think a lot of people aren’t keen for rough shooting because they can’t keep their dogs within range of gunshot

Very true. I say to my pals that if they see a bird and don’t shoot at it then it shows a failure of fieldcraft. Either their dog is working out of range of them or they aren’t showing ‘game-sense’. Game-sense is reading the dog and land, always putting yourself into positions to shoot if a bird gets up. Another thing I do is explain the principle of keeping in line. A wobbly string of people means no one has a safe shot available as much of the shooting window is blanked by people ahead or behind of the gun. Keep in a straight line and a team of 9 guns loses as much shooting window as a team of 3. I also state/joke that you go out of line you may get shot and I will have little sympathy, I’m not halting the day just to call an ambulance for some daft beggar who doesn’t know what a line is. 

Many of you would probably class me as a terrible shot if you saw me on clays, but on shoots I always seem to end up with a decent chunk of the birds because I concentrate and know my dogs. 

[scolopax]

I had a nice little farm shoot, over two small adjacent farms, plus a 40 acre wood 5 miles away. Bags could be between 24 and 50 with the better bags in January as I do not like to shoot hard until real winter sets in.  Still got the original part of the shoot but I have lost land incrementally over the last two years.  So I guess this season is my “terrible season” as I am left with one small farm to try and run a shoot on. Still fun I think but hard work to try to run a day, or now as it is, a part day, on just 120 acres. I keeper the shoot myself and have help from my brother. But it would be way more cost effective for me to buy a few decent days for myself, I hardly do any trigger pulling, just lots of feeding and stressing lol.

[jall25]

9 minutes ago, scolopax said:

I had a nice little farm shoot, over two small adjacent farms, plus a 40 acre wood 5 miles away. Bags could be between 24 and 50 with the better bags in January as I do not like to shoot hard until real winter sets in.  Still got the original part of the shoot but I have lost land incrementally over the last two years.  So I guess this season is my “terrible season” as I am left with one small farm to try and run a shoot on. Still fun I think but hard work to try to run a day, or now as it is, a part day, on just 120 acres. I keeper the shoot myself and have help from my brother. But it would be way more cost effective for me to buy a few decent days for myself, I hardly do any trigger pulling, just lots of feeding and stressing lol.

I think 120 acres is a good size for a shoot scolopax

Nice and manageable

[Charlie Anderson]

"I also state/joke that you go out of line you may get shot and I will have little sympathy, I’m not halting the day just to call an ambulance for some daft beggar who doesn’t know what a line is. " I find this comment very amusing. 

 

Sadly there appears to be very little opportunities for a rough shoot south Luton unless you want to pay mega bucks .  Living in London you accept it's probably never going to happen but I keep looking 

[Weihrauch17]

On 12/01/2022 at 22:06, jall25 said:

I think 120 acres is a good size for a shoot scolopax

Nice and manageable

Entirely dependent on the terrain.