Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[welsh1]

2 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Anyone who supports those trying to impose an illegal government, now dictatorship, on a population that has chosen to govern itself and now join with others for protection, certainly have the whiff.

So russia invading ukraine with the intention to take control of the country will fall into that.

[Mungler]

4 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

So russia invading ukraine with the intention to take control of the country will fall into that.

That’s the big hole in all this. The Kremlin’s own wild and whacky stated objectives.

It’s only the Shills that say this is some noble fight to free the people of Donbass in order to scramble for some reason, any reason.

Putin of course couldn’t give a monkeys about the people of Donbass whom he’s shelled for the best part of a year now, and leaving aside all the other Donbass specific options that remained on the table, there was just no need to invade the whole of the Ukraine and start a war.

And in todays news the Russians are saying the West are working with Ukraine to let off a dirty bomb. Have you heard anything quite so ridiculous? And yet there are those amongst us who will willingly believe it because it came from the one true news source and not MSM 😃 Bonkers.

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Putin  Zelensky of course couldn’t give a monkeys about the people of Donbass whom he’s shelled for the best part of a  3 years now, and leaving aside all the other Donbass specific options that remained on the table, there was just no need to invade the whole of the Ukraine jump into bed with NATO and start a war.

Fixed that for you. 

 

45 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And in todays news the Russians west are saying the West Russians are working with Ukraine Iran to let off a dirty bomb. Have you heard anything quite so ridiculous? evil ? And yet there are those amongst us who will willingly believe it to be true because it came from the one true news source and not MSM

There you go , is that less 'bonkers' ?

[Rewulf]

Europe begins to realise the US has got them bent over a barrel with Ukraine.

 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Fixed that for you. 

 

There you go , is that less 'bonkers' ?

 

But that makes no sense in the context of where we are and a Russian invasion and war.

No one ‘caused’ Putin to invade nor was there need to. The cause and purported need to invade and start a war are in your head and don’t even marry up with the causes / need stated by the Kremlin. 

And why on earth should the US discount the sale of natural gas to Europe, being the very people Trump warned not to become dependent on Putin not 4 years ago? 

More Kremlin inspired attempts to dig out the Yanks.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Mungler said:

No one ‘caused’ Putin to invade nor was there need to. The cause and purported need to invade and start a war are in your head and don’t even marry up with the causes / need stated by the Kremlin. 

Let me get this right , my opinion on cause has no merit ?
Yet your opinion , that Putin couldnt handle lockdown, and read too many books on Peter the great, is the real reason for the war , does ?

 

4 minutes ago, Mungler said:

And why on earth should the US discount the sale of natural gas to Europe, being the very people Trump warned not to become dependent on Putin not 4 years ago? 

Are you joking ?
For one they are supposed allies in the 'war' against Russia, the 'western world' organised sanctions against Russia, those sanctions caused European oil and gas supplies from Russia to cease, why would the US not stand in solidarity (economically) with Europe ?

Why would Trump , who according to some numpties on here , got put in power by Putin, tell Europe not to buy Russian energy ?
You cant have it both ways 😆

You and others seem to struggle with the concept of American involvement , a country with a proven track record in hostile regime change, yet when they are counting up the windfall this war has given them, you seem to think its all coincidental ?

What did Biden say , dont buy Russian gas , Uncle Joe will sort it !

Yet when it comes to the crunch , Uncle Joe sorts it out at triple the price* , and stifles the flow of it to increase the price still further, just in time for winter, pure coincidence though 

Wholesale global gas prices have gone up 7x in the last year. Imported LNG will be many times more expensive than piped gas.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-data-and-research/data-portal/wholesale-market-indicators

They were rising before the Ukraine war , and have leapt up at each step of the sanctioning of Russian gas.
That 7 x  figure is still rising , and will likely top 10 x by the end of the year if not higher.

The US will dominate the LNG market, and make its weapons sales look silly with the money its making from gas and oil .
Think more about cause and effect , rather than trying to fit inexplicable reasons to the narrative thats been force fed to you.
 

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Let me get this right , my opinion on cause has no merit ?
Yet your opinion , that Putin couldnt handle lockdown, and read too many books on Peter the great, is the real reason for the war , does ?

 

 

On the contrary, if you read the previous threads I have said that your view that "something that we don't know about must have happened" is totally without foundation or merit. Indeed, it is absolutely making something up to fit a big hole in your reasoning. Absolute Hitchens moment.

I followed to say that if we were wildly speculating, then my theory about Putin isolating himself and going nuts would at least be supported by medical texts about what fear and total isolation does.

However, I am happy to bin both notions, and where does that leave us? With an invasion and war with no commonly stated objective / reason from the mob who rolled the tanks over a border of a neighbor and laboring under the demonstrably false badge of a spacial military operation.

 

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Are you joking ?

For one they are supposed allies in the 'war' against Russia, the 'western world' organised sanctions against Russia, those sanctions caused European oil and gas supplies from Russia to cease, why would the US not stand in solidarity (economically) with Europe ?

Why would Trump , who according to some numpties on here , got put in power by Putin, tell Europe not to buy Russian energy ?
You cant have it both ways 😆

You and others seem to struggle with the concept of American involvement , a country with a proven track record in hostile regime change, yet when they are counting up the windfall this war has given them, you seem to think its all coincidental ?

What did Biden say , dont buy Russian gas , Uncle Joe will sort it !

Yet when it comes to the crunch , Uncle Joe sorts it out at triple the price* , and stifles the flow of it to increase the price still further, just in time for winter, pure coincidence though 

Wholesale global gas prices have gone up 7x in the last year. Imported LNG will be many times more expensive than piped gas.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-data-and-research/data-portal/wholesale-market-indicators

They were rising before the Ukraine war , and have leapt up at each step of the sanctioning of Russian gas.
That 7 x  figure is still rising , and will likely top 10 x by the end of the year if not higher.

The US will dominate the LNG market, and make its weapons sales look silly with the money its making from gas and oil .
Think more about cause and effect , rather than trying to fit inexplicable reasons to the narrative thats been force fed to you.
 

 

I'll say it again, my stance on the war is moral - Putin shouldn't have invaded and started murdering people. As for gas prices, an obvious effect of supply and demand and the sanctions which everyone has agreed to. Big deal. I didn't read anywhere that the Yanks were obliged to knock out cheap gas to anyone. The gas / oil price is high and we're all going to pay for Putin's invasion, but that's the price of freedom for Ukraine - you will of course sneer at that but there's still plenty of them lining up to defend *their* country...

 

[ordnance]

6 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Anyone who supports those trying to impose an illegal government, now dictatorship, on a population that has chosen to govern itself and now join with others for protection, certainly have the whiff.

Back to a alternative universe 😕

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

On the contrary, if you read the previous threads I have said that your view that "something that we don't know about must have happened" is totally without foundation or merit. Indeed, it is absolutely making something up to fit a big hole in your reasoning. Absolute Hitchens moment.

A bit like making up something like , Putin is a mad , evil , Peter the great obsessed land grabbing maniac, who got sent over the edge by covid.
Cos theres loads of evidence for that😆

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I followed to say that if we were wildly speculating, then my theory about Putin isolating himself and going nuts would at least be supported by medical texts about what fear and total isolation does. How on earth would you know he was in fear and isolated, your err, theory falls at the first ?

However, I am happy to bin both notions, and where does that leave us? With an invasion and war with no commonly stated objective / reason from the mob who rolled the tanks over a border of a neighbor and laboring under the demonstrably false badge of a spacial military operation.

It leaves us to speculate on something else , something we may not be privy to the facts of.
As I said.

 

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

I'll say it again, my stance on the war is moral - Putin shouldn't have invaded and started murdering people. As for gas prices, an obvious effect of supply and demand and the sanctions which everyone has agreed to. Big deal. I didn't read anywhere that the Yanks were obliged to knock out cheap gas to anyone. The gas / oil price is high and we're all going to pay for Putin's invasion, but that's the price of freedom for Ukraine - you will of course sneer at that but there's still plenty of them lining up to defend *their* country...

YOUR stance on the war is moral, the Ukrainians stance on the war is survival , and this includes the separatists.
The US stance is clearly economic gain , or is that coincidence ? 🤪
The EU , talked into sanctions and weapons supply by their oligarchs and US 'friends' are now going to face tough economic decisions, inevitable recession, and misery, they have no way of heating homes and powering industry without US gas , as all option on Russian gas have been removed physically, but thats all coincidence too ? 🤪

Even now there are leaders in the EU who will be trying to extract themselves from this thing, even the Americans are beginning to wonder if they have gone to far...
As Ive said , Ukraine could be dropped from a great height if the going gets too tough at home.
There are few , if any world leaders who could care less about Ukraine or its people, in that , I guarantee you have far more morality than them.
And  when the dust settles, and Ukraine tries to rebuild , we shall see how much the world 'cares' , when they are penniless and their country shattered, lets see who their friends are.

Yes, were all going to pay for Putins invasion, but some will pay a lot more than others it would seem.

Cause and effect.

[Mungler]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

A bit like making up something like , Putin is a mad , evil , Peter the great obsessed land grabbing maniac, who got sent over the edge by covid.
Cos theres loads of evidence for that😆

 

It leaves us to speculate on something else , something we may not be privy to the facts of.
As I said.

 

YOUR stance on the war is moral, the Ukrainians stance on the war is survival , and this includes the separatists.
The US stance is clearly economic gain , or is that coincidence ? 🤪
The EU , talked into sanctions and weapons supply by their oligarchs and US 'friends' are now going to face tough economic decisions, inevitable recession, and misery, they have no way of heating homes and powering industry without US gas , as all option on Russian gas have been removed physically, but thats all coincidence too ? 🤪

Even now there are leaders in the EU who will be trying to extract themselves from this thing, even the Americans are beginning to wonder if they have gone to far...
As Ive said , Ukraine could be dropped from a great height if the going gets too tough at home.
There are few , if any world leaders who could care less about Ukraine or its people, in that , I guarantee you have far more morality than them.
And  when the dust settles, and Ukraine tries to rebuild , we shall see how much the world 'cares' , when they are penniless and their country shattered, lets see who their friends are.

Yes, were all going to pay for Putins invasion, but some will pay a lot more than others it would seem.

Cause and effect.

If you read the thread on ‘pondering’ I couldn’t have left you in any doubt. I have said my view was that Putin has gone nuts but I’m happy to abandon that without evidence albeit the psychological effects of lockdown and 50 foot tables are factual. 

You assert something ‘must’ have happened  which we are not privy to, albeit you don’t know what and there’s no evidence to substantiate that at all.

And we go round in circles.

Again, your obsession with the Americans clouds your views. 

As well we know money does make the world go round, if someone broke into your house about to murder your family, would you not call the police on the basis that there would be a cost in their attendance? In short, if the over reliance on cheap gas from the gangster petrol station now bites, well, it’s that or we all keep handing money over hand over fist to the invading murderers and then end up funding the invasion and war. 

An easy equation to resolve no doubt if you don’t have a moral compass or a care for the Ukranians’ right to defend their country and self governance outside of Russia.

 

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, Mungler said:

You assert something ‘must’ have happened  which we are not privy to, albeit you don’t know what and there’s no evidence to substantiate that at all.

Um, if we had evidence to substantiate it, then ergo, we would be privy to it ?
Hence my 'Cause and effect' statement.

Sometimes there is no direct evidence , but we still believe something to be true ?

28 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Again, your obsession with the Americans clouds your views. 

Certainly not an obsession, but there is a clear motive behind their behaviour, and yes its money , with their clear aims of securing petro dominancy.
The Middle east is slipping through their fingers, they failed to secure Venezuela (so far), Russia needed to be neutralised (partial success) 
Read between the lines, Ukraine is a sideshow for what this is really all about.

 

33 minutes ago, Mungler said:

As well we know money does make the world go round, if someone broke into your house about to murder your family, would you not call the police on the basis that there would be a cost in their attendance? In short, if the over reliance on cheap gas from the gangster petrol station now bites, well, it’s that or we all keep handing money over hand over fist to the invading murderers and then end up funding the invasion and war. 

Really rubbish analogy, as no matter how much the police charged, they wouldnt get there in time 
The only real way to defend what is yours , is by yourself, as even the staunchest allies will abandon you in your hour of need, ask Poland circa 1939 

[welsh1]

Stop, just stop please.

Why don't you two take it to pm?

[Gordon R]

Can't the ref step in and tell Rewulf - "You put up a half decent fight, but you are out of your league. I'm stopping the fight."

Sorted. 🙂

Edited October 24, 2022 by Gordon R

[Mungler]

Well, at least it’s contained in this thread.

Indeed, the forum ‘needs’ this thread 😆 It also give the security services the heads up to intercept the post for a few people and check for micro dots 😆

[Dave-G]

There's several making good points but speak from opposing platforms, a bit like our political parties, and once an argument starts its difficult to not have the last word or give a little.

I think its entirely feasible we are not being made aware of all that's going on, we've still not been told who did the pipe sabotage - and why would we be told for sure? In any case its either truth, propaganda or false flag.

I think almost all agree Mr. Cretin was out of order invading the country after claiming it was an exercise so we can't believe anything he spouts. And Ukraine has every right to work with any country it pleases - as does Russia.

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Dave-G

[henry d]

I just read this and thought it relevant...

[old'un]

16 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Stop, just stop please.

Why don't you two take it to pm?

 

I would not worry about it, its become mainly a two man fight, just let them get on with it as most people have lost interest anyway.

 

[Rewulf]

17 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Why don't you two take it to pm?

Wouldnt be much point in a forum if when things get 'robust' it has to go to PM ?
i would have thought there would be some requests from the mods to curb the insults, but I suppose thats not possible when the mods take a side and join in with said insults ?

16 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Can't the ref step in and tell Rewulf - "You put up a half decent fight, but you are out of your league. I'm stopping the fight."

Tell me Im out of my league , when my opponent truly believes PW is full of long standing members who do 'night work ' for the Kremlin , and gets his best information from Darth Putins twitter feed ? Okaaay 

 

16 hours ago, Mungler said:

Indeed, the forum ‘needs’ this thread 😆 It also give the security services the heads up to intercept the post for a few people and check for micro dots 😆

I take it you or site staff has informed the security services of this international incident , where PW has been infiltrated by Russian spies ?
No, didnt think so.

Put it this way , if I really believe a hostile foreign power or agent was operating in any capacity against the UK , I would be picking the phone up, and have done in the past.....
So put your money where your mouth is , pick up that phone , and get on with it, if you want my name Ill PM you it.

Alternatively, pack up using 'shill' as every other word in your sentence, and leave out the insults, accusations of drug taking , and slander.

Or , lock the thread and bury it , because its getting embarrassing.

[Stonepark]

On 24/10/2022 at 10:37, Mungler said:

That’s the big hole in all this. The Kremlin’s own wild and whacky stated objectives.

It’s only the Shills that say this is some noble fight to free the people of Donbass in order to scramble for some reason, any reason.

Putin of course couldn’t give a monkeys about the people of Donbass whom he’s shelled for the best part of a year now, and leaving aside all the other Donbass specific options that remained on the table, there was just no need to invade the whole of the Ukraine and start a war.

And in todays news the Russians are saying the West are working with Ukraine to let off a dirty bomb. Have you heard anything quite so ridiculous? And yet there are those amongst us who will willingly believe it because it came from the one true news source and not MSM 😃 Bonkers.

Actually it came from Shoigu, Russias minister of defence who has discussed it with his Western opposites in USA UK France as well as Turkey etc and then publicised those talks to make it absolutely clear (and publicly known that Ukraine is proceeding down this route) if Ukraine makes a dirty bomb and sets it off not only will the gloves come off, but it will be clear to the world that Ukraine are genocidal Nazis who are prepared to use WMDs and therefore further justify Russias military operations.

If this wasn't an actual  issue, it would not have been raised.... it should be getting through to people that the current Ukraine Government is not the good guys.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

If this wasn't an actual  issue, it would not have been raised.... it should be getting through to people that the current Ukraine Government is not the good guys.

Youre fighting an unwinnable war here.
Whatever Ukraine does is right, and whatever Russia does is wrong , and evil.

If Ukraine 'borrowed' a dozen nukes off NATO and fired them at Moscow, the west would turn round and call it a Russian false flag, and 90% of us would believe it too.
Thats  how far weve come with conditioning the people, there is no hope for peace.

If ANY nuclear device , dirty bomb , or sabotage on infrastructure happens in Ukraine , Russia, or any participating western country in this conflict, then it will be Russia responsible.
Russian intelligence has information pertaining to Ukraine using a dirty bomb, it has taken this info to the US , France and UK , and is also contacting the IAEA today with its findings...
Headlines today in MSM , 'Russia plans to use dirty bomb and blame Ukraine !'

Russia might as well press the button, or surrender now and let NATO roll in.

[welsh1]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Wouldnt be much point in a forum if when things get 'robust' it has to go to PM ?
i would have thought there would be some requests from the mods to curb the insults, but I suppose thats not possible when the mods take a side and join in with said insults ?

 

Could you point out the insults, i don't think i have insulted anyone but am willing to apologise if i have.

I have removed numerous posts on this thread that stepped over the mark, as the only mod on here at the moment a large amount of my time is spent having to trawl through this thread and also another in the shooting forum that is of the same ilk.

I have also responded to quite a few reports from members who have reported comments on this thread.

Things are not robust, they are repetitive between the two of you.

[Mungler]

Hey, I’m happy to be out. You either know what’s right and what’s wrong about the situation in Ukraine and no one should need nearly 200 pages to work that one out for themselves. 

[Rim Fire]

Why don't this pair try posting in some of the other parts of the PW forums like the shooting parts not just off topic mabe posting some pics of themselves participating in shooting activities 

[Scully]

17 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Why don't this pair try posting in some of the other parts of the PW forums like the shooting parts not just off topic mabe posting some pics of themselves participating in shooting activities 

A bit of an odd post! Why would ( or should ) they? 

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

as the only mod on here at the moment

I have noticed this , and understand you are juggling a lot of balls , my apologies and appreciation, however...

10 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Could you point out the insults, i don't think i have insulted anyone but am willing to apologise if i have.

You have insulted various members by accusing them of working for Russia, others were called brainwashed or worse.
I could be wrong , but I always thought mods should remain impartial ?

11 minutes ago, welsh1 said:

Things arn't robust, they are repetitive between the two of you.

I have tried to disconnect from this , as Ive stated , this doesnt show us in a good light, at all.
However , there are those who cant seem to let it go , and the insults continue, Ive even tried to turn it into a light hearted game, so it doesnt really sound like we are calling each other drug taking Russian spies, who are 'nuts'
To no avail.
 

 

18 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Why don't this pair try posting in some of the other parts of the PW forums like the shooting parts not just off topic mabe posting some pics of themselves participating in shooting activities 

I post on many other aspects of this forum , try a search.