Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Smokersmith]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Is that what we really think is happening here ?

My Russian friends and colleagues can’t explain it. They’re horrified. Their way of life is over.

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, Smokersmith said:

There are two sides … good and evil.

This.

My red line is that Putin has not been elected in a fair and open election - he is a dictator who has foist himself on the Russian people. Throw in a good measure of state propaganda/ brainwashing with locking up democracy protesters and he’s ticking every box on the crazed dictator checklist. 

The Putin apologists and Russia Today dummies will always lead with the ever amorphous ‘there’s two sides to this story’ but there isn’t. Even if there was, think of all of the available options short of rolling tanks over borders, shelling civilian cities and putting the whole world at risk of nuclear war.

Putin and Assad ironed out nearly 1 million civilians in Syria - he’s a looney who can’t remember the last time anyone denied him.

There’s not that many horses in this race and as for backing Putin? Really?

.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Mungler

[Newbie to this]

Insults, a great way to get a reasoned debate. 

[Rewulf]

43 minutes ago, Mungler said:

there’s two sides to this story’ but there isn’t. Even if there was, think of all of the available options short of rolling tanks over borders

I can think of an available option that Ukraine flatly refused to take.

Don't join NATO.

Yes putin shouldn't have invaded, but as the tanks were massing at the border , was there options to talk?

In 8 years , did anyone suggest a UN buffer zone in Donbass, try and come to a solution for Crimea ?

Did the West offer to mediate? No , they threatened consequences, and sent weapons.

When Ukraines president in 2014 didn't fancy closer ties with the eu, within weeks that government was booted in a western backed coup, why should Russia pretend the west is some kind of neutral partner , they have behaved like the enemy they are for decades. Russia grabbed Ukraine before NATO did.

There is definitely 2 sides, and if that makes me a putin apologist then fill your boots, these are simple truths.

[Smokersmith]

What should Russia do if Finland try to join NATO?

[bluesj]

2 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

What should Russia do if Finland try to join NATO?

What should NATO do if Russia invade Finland?

[Rewulf]

Interesting read from 2015.

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-05/ukraine-usa-maidan-finance

 

[Gerry78]

5 hours ago, Walker570 said:

There are almost always two arguments to both sides   Howver killing children should not be tolerated and the mass shelling of living quarters of basically innocent people is NOT acceptable in my book. It is barbaric and should be punishes accordingly.  

Agree 100 percent Putin should be held responsible for what’s he is doing in Ukraine it is not right But are we being hypocrites when the US and UK goverments  are Still selling arms to the likes of Israel who have been shelling and murdering children in Palestine for decades 

[12gauge82]

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I can think of an available option that Ukraine flatly refused to take.

Don't join NATO.

Yes putin shouldn't have invaded, but as the tanks were massing at the border , was there options to talk?

In 8 years , did anyone suggest a UN buffer zone in Donbass, try and come to a solution for Crimea ?

Did the West offer to mediate? No , they threatened consequences, and sent weapons.

When Ukraines president in 2014 didn't fancy closer ties with the eu, within weeks that government was booted in a western backed coup, why should Russia pretend the west is some kind of neutral partner , they have behaved like the enemy they are for decades. Russia grabbed Ukraine before NATO did.

There is definitely 2 sides, and if that makes me a putin apologist then fill your boots, these are simple truths.

Your very often on the money on this forum, on this one however (imho) I think your well wide of the mark. 

The biggest one for me is do you or anyone else truly believe that NATO has any ambition of invading Russia, because if they don't, what has Russia to fear if Ukraine had joined. As far as I'm aware, NATO was only set up to counter and ensure the safety of Western Europe from an already highly aggressive Russian state? 

[Gerry78]

15 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your very often on the money on this forum, on this one however (imho) I think your well wide of the mark. 

The biggest one for me is do you or anyone else truly believe that NATO has any ambition of invading Russia, because if they don't, what has Russia to fear if Ukraine had joined. As far as I'm aware, NATO was only set up to counter and ensure the safety of Western Europe from an already highly aggressive Russian state? 

You are correct NATO had or never has any ambition to invade Russia after it was formed in 1949 but it has used its military outside Europe in the 1st gulf war after saddam invaded Kuwait and Afghanistan after 9/11 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Your very often on the money on this forum, on this one however (imho) I think your well wide of the mark. 

The biggest one for me is do you or anyone else truly believe that NATO has any ambition of invading Russia, because if they don't, what has Russia to fear if Ukraine had joined. As far as I'm aware, NATO was only set up to counter and ensure the safety of Western Europe from an already highly aggressive Russian state? 

That's a myth .

Nato was set up in 1949, as a security arrangement,  bare in mind the west had nukes for 5 years prior, and had stocks and the means to severely damage Russia,  whilst the Soviets had only just tested their first bomb. Whilst the Russians had a far larger army , technically the west had the advantage in the bomb, for a while.

Nevertheless,  Russia asked to join the fledgling NATO , mabe it was a peace in our time moment, but they were flatly rejected. On the basis that the dictatorship of the USSR was a problem,  Portugal on the other hand , also a dictatorship, got in without issue.

In 1955 , to counter what it saw as the increasing threat of NATO , and the addition of W Germany into it , who 15 years previously had laid waste to russia , the ussr formed the Warsaw pact, a similar mutual defence pact.

Both sides set about the arms race, with trillions spent on arms , including 5x the amount of nukes we have now days.

Eventually the ussr , unable to feed itself from the need to keep up with the west in weapon tech, bankrupted itself and collapsed.

In 2000 , new leader putin talked to then president Clinton again about joining NATO, and was again rejected, the west has been increasingly hostile to this day.

Do I think NATO wants to invade Russia? No.

Not while it still has nukes anyway, but what does Russia think ? Are they confident they are safe, there's an awful lot of oil there, and the US are pretty gnarly when it comes to oil.

Putin asked for some concessions, he got nothing , not even a meeting about it, what he got was 10 years worth of US / NATO arms and training to fight Russia. 

What would you do ?

 

[Rewulf]

12 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

You are correct NATO had or never has any ambition to invade Russia after it was formed in 1949 but it has used its military outside Europe in the 1st gulf war after saddam invaded Kuwait and Afghanistan after 9/11 

I'm surprised you've not thought about this.

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/operation-unthinkable-churchill-s-plans-to-invade-the-soviet-union/

[12gauge82]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That's a myth .

Nato was set up in 1949, as a security arrangement,  bare in mind the west had nukes for 5 years prior, and had stocks and the means to severely damage Russia,  whilst the Soviets had only just tested their first bomb. Whilst the Russians had a far larger army , technically the west had the advantage in the bomb, for a while.

Nevertheless,  Russia asked to join the fledgling NATO , mabe it was a peace in our time moment, but they were flatly rejected. On the basis that the dictatorship of the USSR was a problem,  Portugal on the other hand , also a dictatorship, got in without issue.

In 1955 , to counter what it saw as the increasing threat of NATO , and the addition of W Germany into it , who 15 years previously had laid waste to russia , the ussr formed the Warsaw pact, a similar mutual defence pact.

Both sides set about the arms race, with trillions spent on arms , including 5x the amount of nukes we have now days.

Eventually the ussr , unable to feed itself from the need to keep up with the west in weapon tech, bankrupted itself and collapsed.

In 2000 , new leader putin talked to then president Clinton again about joining NATO, and was again rejected, the west has been increasingly hostile to this day.

Do I think NATO wants to invade Russia? No.

Not while it still has nukes anyway, but what does Russia think ? Are they confident they are safe, there's an awful lot of oil there, and the US are pretty gnarly when it comes to oil.

Putin asked for some concessions, he got nothing , not even a meeting about it, what he got was 10 years worth of US / NATO arms and training to fight Russia. 

What would you do ?

 

Interesting read, thanks for that. 

Back to what would I do. My opinion is no right thinking leader would assess Nato a military threat to their country, providing its not a complete despot itself, such as N Korea or the like and even then its unlikely. 

[Gerry78]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'm surprised you've not thought about this.

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/operation-unthinkable-churchill-s-plans-to-invade-the-soviet-union/

Yes I have read this before but that was 1945 NATO which we are talking about was formed in 1949 

[Gerry78]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That's a myth .

Nato was set up in 1949, as a security arrangement,  bare in mind the west had nukes for 5 years prior, and had stocks and the means to severely damage Russia,  whilst the Soviets had only just tested their first bomb. Whilst the Russians had a far larger army , technically the west had the advantage in the bomb, for a while.

Nevertheless,  Russia asked to join the fledgling NATO , mabe it was a peace in our time moment, but they were flatly rejected. On the basis that the dictatorship of the USSR was a problem,  Portugal on the other hand , also a dictatorship, got in without issue.

In 1955 , to counter what it saw as the increasing threat of NATO , and the addition of W Germany into it , who 15 years previously had laid waste to russia , the ussr formed the Warsaw pact, a similar mutual defence pact.

Both sides set about the arms race, with trillions spent on arms , including 5x the amount of nukes we have now days.

Eventually the ussr , unable to feed itself from the need to keep up with the west in weapon tech, bankrupted itself and collapsed.

In 2000 , new leader putin talked to then president Clinton again about joining NATO, and was again rejected, the west has been increasingly hostile to this day.

Do I think NATO wants to invade Russia? No.

Not while it still has nukes anyway, but what does Russia think ? Are they confident they are safe, there's an awful lot of oil there, and the US are pretty gnarly when it comes to oil.

Putin asked for some concessions, he got nothing , not even a meeting about it, what he got was 10 years worth of US / NATO arms and training to fight Russia. 

What would you do ?

 

You forgot to point out That Russia near started a nuclear war in 1960s with the Cuban missile crisis Which they were the aggressors not NATO You are correct regarding the Warsaw Pact but they were under Russian control not to mention China and North Korea axis with Russia 

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

Yes I have read this before but that was 1945 NATO which we are talking about was formed in 1949 

That fact that NATO  didn't exist means nothing, when the founding members all considered invading Russia in 45.

[oowee]

Joining NATO is far more than signing a piece of paper. The existing members make the rules and set the hurdles. Democracy is at the heart closely followed by tackling corruption. 

[Gerry78]

Just now, Rewulf said:

That fact that NATO  didn't exist means nothing, when the founding members all considered invading Russia in 45.

It means everything when NATO Didn’t even exist in 45 

[ordnance]

Anyone interested.  Nuclear bunker for sale in Ballymena, County Antrim ...

 

[ordnance]

Its nothing to do with NATO, its not going to attack a country with thousands of nuclear weapons Putin knows that. Its about successful west looking democracies on his borders. Russia has a Mafia / gangster style leadership with Putin at the top and its about him staying there, but i think he has made a major miscalculation in attacking Ukraine.  After spending decades trying to split the west and NATO by misinformation, interfering election, cyber attacks etc, spreading conspiracies, with the help of useful idiots in western countries. Because of his actions invading Ukraine the penny has dropped in the EU etc, the constant appeasement has failed and they will have to take a stand. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by ordnance

[Gerry78]

41 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Anyone interested.  Nuclear bunker for sale in Ballymena, County Antrim ...

 

😃😃

[oowee]

49 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Its nothing to do with NATO, its not going to attack a country with thousands of nuclear weapons Putin knows that. Its about successful west looking democracies on his borders. Russia has a Mafia / gangster style leadership with Putin at the top and its about him staying there, but i think he has made a major miscalculation in attacking Ukraine.  After spending decades trying to split the west and NATO by misinformation, interfering election, cyber attacks etc, spreading conspiracies, with the help of useful idiots in western countries. Because of his actions invading Ukraine the penny has dropped in the EU etc, the constant appeasement has failed and they will have to take a stand. 

This ^^^^^. 

[Mungler]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

Its nothing to do with NATO, its not going to attack a country with thousands of nuclear weapons Putin knows that. Its about successful west looking democracies on his borders. Russia has a Mafia / gangster style leadership with Putin at the top and its about him staying there, but i think he has made a major miscalculation in attacking Ukraine.  After spending decades trying to split the west and NATO by misinformation, interfering election, cyber attacks etc, spreading conspiracies, with the help of useful idiots in western countries. Because of his actions invading Ukraine the penny has dropped in the EU etc, the constant appeasement has failed and they will have to take a stand. 

100% Agree.

Putin is petrified by the spread of democracy. That’s not good for business in his gangster state.

As an aside, all this ‘Ukraine can’t join NATO because Putin says so’. Just who gave Putin the final word on neighbouring sovereign states?

I feel gutted for the Ukrainians giving up their nukes - a handful of nukes would have been enough to force the bully to look elsewhere and to pick on somewhere else.

The brutal reality is that Ukraine is taking one for the rest of Europe - they have opened eyes, unified NATO and will buy everyone else time to sort themselves out but at enormous cost to their country. 

As for the apologists for the gangster that is Putin and the true believers of the state propaganda machine that is Russia Today - if you don’t know by now, then there’s nothing anyone on here can do or say to change your mind. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Mungler

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

It means everything when NATO Didn’t even exist in 45

It means everything that in 45, Russia had around 25 million dead bodies littering the ground. 

And its 'allies' wanted to put a few more down. 

[ditchman]

putin will get what he wants...Ukraine will fall....at a terrible cost to both sides..........and thats how it will continue until Putin

1. dissapears
2. dies
3. whipped back into position by his mafia

the russians have had a good taste of democrocy...western styles.values..music...and a certain ammount of freedom......they like it and wont do without it for very long........