Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

“instigated”

Not my words , its an internet definition .
And not to be biased , heres two opinions on whether it is or not, I would say make your mind up from there , but that would be pointless, as youre positive it isnt, examine WHY youre positive ?

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-05-10/russia-ukraine-war-putin-s-right-that-u-s-is-waging-a-proxy-war

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/03/why-ukraine-isnt-proxy-war-yet/

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

You are delusional if you think Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine was instigated by the west or that Russia took action / was obliged to take action by anything the West did or didn’t do.

Putin’s stated reasons for this war (Putin’s War) change each week. 

They dont change each week , youre reading sun headlines there, and its not Putins 'personal' war , thats what western media keeps trying to paint, that its not really Russia doing the bad thing , its just Pootin, cos hes mad as a box of frogs , and wants the USSR back !
Youre an intelligent man Mungler, and I can see this conflict has touched you personally, but look a little deeper, and you should be able to see there is far more to this than meets the eye.

Did US meddling in Ukrainian politics 'cause' this invasion, not directly no, but they stirred the pot, and it boiled over, with the kind of unpredictable result that often happens when things are set in motion.
The US wanted regime change, and they got it, the far right , the violence, and a lack of understanding of the make up of Ukraine lead to Donbass separatism , and the annexing of Crimea, Im just surprised it took 8 years for a full blown war to happen.
8 years to broker peace, or draw some lines on the map, 8 years to negotiate, the UN to buffer ?
Or 8 years to prepare Ukraine to go to war with Russia ?

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

By your logic Putin can invade Finland, because Finland has dared to join NATO, and if anyone helps Finland it’s a proxy war eh? 

Why would he invade Finland, they have always had good relations since the end of WW2 ?
If they join NATO , theres nothing he can do about that, but if they start siting offensive infrastructure on their shared border, Russia is perfectly entitled to do the same, are they not ?
Thats not proxy war , thats cold war.

13 hours ago, Mungler said:

A true proxy war would be the West arming Ukraine and Ukraine invading Russia.

Im tempted to say theres time for that yet, but no one is going to invade a nuclear armed power with conventional forces.
It gives all the justification for using battlefield nukes, which give the lie to decades of paranoia, where columns of Russian tanks would roll into Paris, it simply would never have happened without some kind of regime change in the targeted countries first....
The fact that people are STILL saying Pootin wont stop at Ukraine you know , hes going for Moldova next , or the Baltics... Feeds into this stupid idea , that Russian forces are some kind of unstoppable force that requires massive defence spending to counter.
Ukraine has at least exposed it for what it is , Russia is just not very good at invasions, because they were never set up for offence.

[Raja Clavata]

Interesting to see the long debate over the semantics of proxy war.

Even more interesting to constantly read that if you don't align with a certain posters view on the same then you're a Putin apologist.

Very bad form indeed.

[Mungler]

6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Interesting to see the long debate over the semantics of proxy war.

Even more interesting to constantly read that if you don't align with a certain posters view on the same then you're a Putin apologist.

Very bad form indeed.

What has happened to Ukraine and in the Ukraine cannot be condoned, justified or explained away. It’s a black and white / good and evil moment.

I have read and researched too much about Russian atrocities to find any justification or rationalisation of rolling tanks over the border of a sovereign nation in mainland Europe and breaking every rule of the Geneva Convention to listen as to why Putin was justified / provoked / entitled to roll over a neighbour’s border.

Anyone attempting justification lends credence to the action of a murderous madman. 

That’s pretty much it really. 

 

[Gerry78]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

What has happened to Ukraine and in the Ukraine cannot be condoned, justified or explained away. It’s a black and white / good and evil moment.

I have read and researched too much about Russian atrocities to find any justification or rationalisation of rolling tanks over the border of a sovereign nation in mainland Europe and breaking every rule of the Geneva Convention to listen as to why Putin was justified / provoked / entitled to roll over a neighbour’s border.

Anyone attempting justification lends credence to the action of a murderous madman. 

That’s pretty much it really. 

 

All valid points but the West in particular USA/UK had no problem rolling tanks across the Middle East When  it suited there agendas What’s happening to the Ukraine populace is terrible But there wasn’t this much outcry for the people of Iraq,Syria etc 

[Mungler]

15 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

All valid points but the West in particular USA/UK had no problem rolling tanks across the Middle East When  it suited there agendas What’s happening to the Ukraine populace is terrible But there wasn’t this much outcry for the people of Iraq,Syria etc 

 

That avoids the point with a large amount of ‘whataboutery’.

Blair was a lifetime ago. 

And two words ‘Geneva Convention’ 

I do feel like it is explaining the colour of orange juice.

How do we get a resolution to Ukraine? Simple, Putin withdraws his armed forces.

Is Putin at threat of a NATO invasionary  force looking to storm into Russia? And what, force a free election on the Country?

 

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

That avoids the point with a large amount of ‘whataboutery’.

Blair was a lifetime ago. 

And two words ‘Geneva Convention’ 

I do feel like it is explaining the colour of orange juice.

How do we get a resolution to Ukraine? Simple, Putin withdraws his armed forces.

Is Putin at threat of a NATO invasionary  force looking to storm into Russia? And what, force a free election on the Country?

 

I think you’re missing my point I agree with what your saying but my post is stating that the amount of outcry with Putin invasion of Ukraine Seems to me to be hypocritical of the west When the west invaded countries in the Middle East destroying them and murdering there populations en mass Blair wasn’t the PM for it all Is it because it’s Europeans being killed 

[Mungler]

37 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

I think you’re missing my point I agree with what your saying but my post is stating that the amount of outcry with Putin invasion of Ukraine Seems to me to be hypocritical of the west When the west invaded countries in the Middle East destroying them and murdering there populations en mass Blair wasn’t the PM for it all Is it because it’s Europeans being killed 

Go on then, give me the list of sovereign democratic nations invaded by NATO in the last 20 years and where the civilian populations were specifically targeted and the Geneva Convention was ignored. 

[Gerry78]

12 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Go on then, give me the list of sovereign democratic nations invaded by NATO in the last 20 years and where the civilian populations were specifically targeted and the Geneva Convention was ignored. 

Im not talking about NATO A invasion is a invasion no matter what country it is Putin is totally wrong in what he has done in my opinion You bury your head in the sand like the west does You keep posting data on putin And spouting about the Geneva convention Answer my point How can uk/USA condemnation of putin for something that they have done for decades Not to mention the country’s the West supplies with arms Israel being one of them 

[Mice!]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Interesting to see the long debate over the semantics of proxy war.

Even more interesting to constantly read that if you don't align with a certain posters view on the same then you're a Putin apologist.

Very bad form indeed.

Spot on, there are always two sides to everything,  and the media very rarely show both sides.

12 hours ago, Rewulf said:

8 years to broker peace, or draw some lines on the map, 8 years to negotiate, the UN to buffer ?
Or 8 years to prepare Ukraine to go to war with Russia ?

8 years of conflict with very little reported over here unless you looked for it I imagine.

3 hours ago, Mungler said:

have read and researched too much about Russian atrocities to find any justification or rationalisation of rolling tanks over the border of a sovereign nation in mainland Europe

I've read this a few times now the comment "sovereign nation " and I don't know what difference it makes?

As Gerry says we've done it, the USA,  all the big powers have done it all across the Middle East,  were they may not Sovereign nations?  but there was next to no reaction compared with the reaction the Ukraine has illicited why?

we watched on, then just ignored it, Syria from what I've seen on the news has been almost bombed off the map, Afghanistan has been messed with for years then abandoned, there will be many other conflicts going on but I know nothing about them so can't really comment,  like Yemen???

45 minutes ago, Mungler said:

sovereign democratic nations invaded by NATO in the last 20 years

Now the word democratic has crept in, 

So the argument here will be many countries governments aren't elected,  the strongest take power then hold it, Saddam being prime example,  so we/Nato role in to make things better, and we know how that goes, it probably doesn't get any better for those living there, but people get elected who will play ball and dangerous leaders get removed.

1 hour ago, Gerry78 said:

Is it because it’s Europeans being killed 

I think this must be a big part of it, we've had civil dispute in Europe leading to genocide in Yugoslavia, but since world war two Europe has played nice with each other, gone along with uneasy truces and made deals, any conflict has been terrorism or far away,  where our troops go but the trouble doesn't come here.

The other issue I see now is people know Ukrainians, they live in a very similar culture to us and other European countries, the way masses of women and children have left while the men stay to fight has clearly won the Ukraine people nothing but admiration and rightly so, but at a massive cost, it will likely take a generation for some areas to recover, if they do.

The only thing you missed out Gerry was its white Europeans being killed.

I'd love to wake up and find it was over, but while the Ukraine are willing to fight, and others are willing to supply them with weapons it's going to drag on, because while Russia haven't rolled over them, they don't look like quitting. 

I can't help think the Ukraine is a pawn being used in a power game, or just there country is just being used to play out the game?

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, well if it is a power game its at the murder of 1000s of Ukrainian men women and children and the destruction of their homes, factories , towns and villages , let alone their mental health with the horrors of war and becoming refugees , I foresee an epidemic of PTSD, for many years to come, that's not including the Ukraine Armed forces 

[Mungler]

6 hours ago, Gerry78 said:

Im not talking about NATO A invasion is a invasion no matter what country it is Putin is totally wrong in what he has done in my opinion You bury your head in the sand like the west does You keep posting data on putin And spouting about the Geneva convention Answer my point How can uk/USA condemnation of putin for something that they have done for decades Not to mention the country’s the West supplies with arms Israel being one of them 

You are measuring apples with pears if you’re going to wander down the Israel path; indeed, the tenor ‘there’s a lot of wrongdoing in the world and we’ve all done it before, so what’ only just serves to water down what is happening right now.

Part of the significant and undermining propaganda flying around is the ‘it goes on all the time and we’ve all [sic UK/US] done it before’ but what Blair / Bush did two decades ago is no excuse / justification / reason for what is happening now. You can reach back into any country’s history and find something awful, but what’s that got to do with Ukraine?

5 hours ago, Mice! said:

Spot on, there are always two sides to everything,  and the media very rarely show both sides.

8 years of conflict with very little reported over here unless you looked for it I imagine.

I've read this a few times now the comment "sovereign nation " and I don't know what difference it makes?

As Gerry says we've done it, the USA,  all the big powers have done it all across the Middle East,  were they may not Sovereign nations?  but there was next to no reaction compared with the reaction the Ukraine has illicited why?

we watched on, then just ignored it, Syria from what I've seen on the news has been almost bombed off the map, Afghanistan has been messed with for years then abandoned, there will be many other conflicts going on but I know nothing about them so can't really comment,  like Yemen???

Now the word democratic has crept in, 

So the argument here will be many countries governments aren't elected,  the strongest take power then hold it, Saddam being prime example,  so we/Nato role in to make things better, and we know how that goes, it probably doesn't get any better for those living there, but people get elected who will play ball and dangerous leaders get removed.

I think this must be a big part of it, we've had civil dispute in Europe leading to genocide in Yugoslavia, but since world war two Europe has played nice with each other, gone along with uneasy truces and made deals, any conflict has been terrorism or far away,  where our troops go but the trouble doesn't come here.

The other issue I see now is people know Ukrainians, they live in a very similar culture to us and other European countries, the way masses of women and children have left while the men stay to fight has clearly won the Ukraine people nothing but admiration and rightly so, but at a massive cost, it will likely take a generation for some areas to recover, if they do.

The only thing you missed out Gerry was its white Europeans being killed.

I'd love to wake up and find it was over, but while the Ukraine are willing to fight, and others are willing to supply them with weapons it's going to drag on, because while Russia haven't rolled over them, they don't look like quitting. 

I can't help think the Ukraine is a pawn being used in a power game, or just there country is just being used to play out the game?

The point about Ukraine is that it is near enough to be in our direct vision, was a settled democracy with elections and it was not an aggressor towards Russia.

There’s a lot wrong in the world, and as for Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan (1) they are far away (2) I can’t ever remember when they haven’t been in conflict (3) so what? If another country outside of Europe is in conflict and we don’t get involved / are involved to a lesser extent, how is that a precedent for how we should approach Ukraine or a reason to do nothing.

I think the UKs approach right now is correct - provide what assistance we can and at distance. However, the suggestion that that assistance is a proxy war in the circumstances to hand is just nonsense and does not meet the stated dictionary definition of proxy war in any event. 

The repetition of ‘it’s a proxy war’, ‘what about Yemen’ and ‘what about Iraq’ only serve to water down our feelings and the national response. I’ve seen the Twitter bots in action and Putin has done well in his cyberwar - he’s won over a few on here no doubt 😀

 

[Gerry78]

7 hours ago, Mice! said:

Spot on, there are always two sides to everything,  and the media very rarely show both sides.

8 years of conflict with very little reported over here unless you looked for it I imagine.

I've read this a few times now the comment "sovereign nation " and I don't know what difference it makes?

As Gerry says we've done it, the USA,  all the big powers have done it all across the Middle East,  were they may not Sovereign nations?  but there was next to no reaction compared with the reaction the Ukraine has illicited why?

we watched on, then just ignored it, Syria from what I've seen on the news has been almost bombed off the map, Afghanistan has been messed with for years then abandoned, there will be many other conflicts going on but I know nothing about them so can't really comment,  like Yemen???

Now the word democratic has crept in, 

So the argument here will be many countries governments aren't elected,  the strongest take power then hold it, Saddam being prime example,  so we/Nato role in to make things better, and we know how that goes, it probably doesn't get any better for those living there, but people get elected who will play ball and dangerous leaders get removed.

I think this must be a big part of it, we've had civil dispute in Europe leading to genocide in Yugoslavia, but since world war two Europe has played nice with each other, gone along with uneasy truces and made deals, any conflict has been terrorism or far away,  where our troops go but the trouble doesn't come here.

The other issue I see now is people know Ukrainians, they live in a very similar culture to us and other European countries, the way masses of women and children have left while the men stay to fight has clearly won the Ukraine people nothing but admiration and rightly so, but at a massive cost, it will likely take a generation for some areas to recover, if they do.

The only thing you missed out Gerry was its white Europeans being killed.

I'd love to wake up and find it was over, but while the Ukraine are willing to fight, and others are willing to supply them with weapons it's going to drag on, because while Russia haven't rolled over them, they don't look like quitting. 

I can't help think the Ukraine is a pawn being used in a power game, or just there country is just being used to play out the game?

Couldn’t have put it better thank you 👍

[Gerry78]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

You are measuring apples with pears if you’re going to wander down the Israel path; indeed, the tenor ‘there’s a lot of wrongdoing in the world and we’ve all done it before, so what’ only just serves to water down what is happening right now.

Part of the significant and undermining propaganda flying around is the ‘it goes on all the time and we’ve all [sic UK/US] done it before’ but what Blair / Bush did two decades ago is no excuse / justification / reason for what is happening now. You can reach back into any country’s history and find something awful, but what’s that got to do with Ukraine?

The point about Ukraine is that it is near enough to be in our direct vision, was a settled democracy with elections and it was not an aggressor towards Russia.

There’s a lot wrong in the world, and as for Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan (1) they are far away (2) I can’t ever remember when they haven’t been in conflict (3) so what? If another country outside of Europe is in conflict and we don’t get involved / are involved to a lesser extent, how is that a precedent for how we should approach Ukraine or a reason to do nothing.

I think the UKs approach right now is correct - provide what assistance we can and at distance. However, the suggestion that that assistance is a proxy war in the circumstances to hand is just nonsense and does not meet the stated dictionary definition of proxy war in any event. 

The repetition of ‘it’s a proxy war’, ‘what about Yemen’ and ‘what about Iraq’ only serve to water down our feelings and the national response. I’ve seen the Twitter bots in action and Putin has done well in his cyberwar - he’s won over a few on here no doubt 😀

 

First of all nobody Is watering down the attack on Ukraine myself and most people on this forum agree the invasion is a disgrace Also you state that countries like Iraq Syria etc have been in conflict for years which is correct but the reason being is the west has meddled in there affairs creating power vacuums which creates civil wars Regarding Putin cyberwar Nobody does propaganda BETTER than the West Your 3rd point you remark So what if a country outside Europe is in conflict and we don’t get involved My original post as I’ve said twice was regarding the Middle East The west really got involved then Which all these countries were well outside Europe My point being is there wasn’t as much horror by the media Also going down The Israel path why is it not on the media everyday regarding what Israel is doing to the local Arab population in the West Bank etc Il tell you why the west has armed Israel to the teeth But we can’t talk about that can we 

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Gerry78 said:

First of all nobody Is watering down the attack on Ukraine myself and most people on this forum agree the invasion is a disgrace Also you state that countries like Iraq Syria etc have been in conflict for years which is correct but the reason being is the west has meddled in there affairs creating power vacuums which creates civil wars Regarding Putin cyberwar Nobody does propaganda BETTER than the West Your 3rd point you remark So what if a country outside Europe is in conflict and we don’t get involved My original post as I’ve said twice was regarding the Middle East The west really got involved then Which all these countries were well outside Europe My point being is there wasn’t as much horror by the media Also going down The Israel path why is it not on the media everyday regarding what Israel is doing to the local Arab population in the West Bank etc Il tell you why the west has armed Israel to the teeth But we can’t talk about that can we 

The west may have created power vacuum's in countries but it does not mean they were in peace prior. Many of these countries are subjugating the population and killing at will even without an invasion.

 

I am amazed that the situation continues as it does with very little condemnation from the West.

 

 

[Gerry78]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

The west may have created power vacuum's in countries but it does not mean they were in peace prior. Many of these countries are subjugating the population and killing at will even without an invasion.

 

I am amazed that the situation continues as it does with very little condemnation from the West.

 

 

Oowee you are correct but we can agree the west has been meddling in countries affairs just like Russia is meddling in Ukraine at the minute maybe meddling is a soft word regarding Ukraine Invasion killing by Russia 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I do feel like it is explaining the colour of orange juice.

Best quote of the year so far. 🙂

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, well if it is a power game its at the murder of 1000s of Ukrainian men women and children and the destruction of their homes, factories , towns and villages , let alone their mental health with the horrors of war and becoming refugees , I foresee an epidemic of PTSD, for many years to come, that's not including the Ukraine Armed forces 

It absolutely is, and you are right, but wars are dirty, and this was why I didn't expect the Ukrainian government to fight,  because long term they can't win, areas are being reduced to nothing and I doubt many who have left will return or be able to.

But would it have lasted this long without Europe and others arming the Ukraine? I don't think so, they're being supplied and supported from a far at a massive cost to themselves while European leaders and others watch on.

[Mice!]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

The point about Ukraine is that it is near enough to be in our direct vision, was a settled democracy with elections and it was not an aggressor towards Russia.

So like a few have said, it's different because it's closer?

There has been ongoing conflict for the last 8 years so there has been aggression from both sides.

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

There’s a lot wrong in the world, and as for Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan (1) they are far away (2) I can’t ever remember when they haven’t been in conflict (3) so what? If another country outside of Europe is in conflict and we don’t get involved / are involved to a lesser extent, how is that a precedent for how we should approach Ukraine or a reason to do nothing.

I'm quite shocked by your 1,2,3 comments,  it reads like it's happening far away so doesn't matter, the East will never live like the West, but if they don't matter then why should what's happening in the Ukraine,  there exactly the same thing being done in different parts of the world.

You could argue that Saddam invading Kuwait was just the same as what Putin has done, only he wasn't close by and didn't have Nukes so the West rolled in and two wars later the area is a settled peaceful country of prosperity,  only its clearly not is it.

The bigger issue is that the conflict in the Ukraine is affecting us directly, energy prices are up, filling the car diesel is £1.75 near me, food prices are up.

And there is the threat or suspicion that Russia might not stop at the Ukraine,  I can't see it, not in the near future anyway because they'd be over extended and clearly haven't just pushed aside the Ukrainian people. 

 

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, Mice! said:

It absolutely is, and you are right, but wars are dirty, and this was why I didn't expect the Ukrainian government to fight,  because long term they can't win, areas are being reduced to nothing and I doubt many who have left will return or be able to.

But would it have lasted this long without Europe and others arming the Ukraine? I don't think so, they're being supplied and supported from a far at a massive cost to themselves while European leaders and others watch on.

Long term they win or we all loose. 

[Smokersmith]

28 minutes ago, Mice! said:

So like a few have said, it's different because it's closer?

This theme has come up a few times ... and yes, it is different (in terms of the effect).

Someone walks into a house in 'Bongo Bongo' land and machetes someone to death ... meh!

It happens to your neighbour ... an entirely different set of emotions follow.

It's just human nature ...  right?

 

[Dave-G]

Regarding middle east wars not being as 'concerning' to us in the west. Could it be that the west have largely relaxed religious hatred while 'they' clearly still feel their religion continues to be worth killing for?

 

[Mice!]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

Long term they win or we all loose. 

How do we all loose? If that was the case we wouldn't just be sending supplies and it would already be world war three!

[Mice!]

7 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

This theme has come up a few times ... and yes, it is different (in terms of the effect).

Someone walks into a house in 'Bongo Bongo' land and machetes someone to death ... meh!

It happens to your neighbour ... an entirely different set of emotions follow.

It's just human nature ...  right?

 

An immediate neighbour sure, it happens in London and lots of other places daily, unless it's the town or place you live in then no one pays attention?

Ukraine aren't our Neighbours,  I'd never given the place a second thought before this kicked off, I doubt others had, some will have travelled there or maybe had a holiday, but the way the media and many others are reacting you would think they were our closest allies.

Given the large number of Polish people living here I could understand the reaction had it been Poland being invaded, but I still think its to do with Russia being the bad guys and whoever else is involved the good?

[Gerry78]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

An immediate neighbour sure, it happens in London and lots of other places daily, unless it's the town or place you live in then no one pays attention?

Ukraine aren't our Neighbours,  I'd never given the place a second thought before this kicked off, I doubt others had, some will have travelled there or maybe had a holiday, but the way the media and many others are reacting you would think they were our closest allies.

Given the large number of Polish people living here I could understand the reaction had it been Poland being invaded, but I still think its to do with Russia being the bad guys and whoever else is involved the good?

This ☝️👍👍👍👍

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

How do we all loose? If that was the case we wouldn't just be sending supplies and it would already be world war three!

Step by step. Sanctions stay in place food prices soar, fuel is even more expensive, climate change targets, radiation fall out, a triumphant violent world leader with access to N weapons the list goes on. Why stop there if no one is bothered. We will all be paying for the 7m unproductive refugees. Keep nibbling away the occasional random murder, or border incursion and whilst no one cares lets get our Chinese mates to tackle Taiwan.