Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[Rewulf]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

Give it a rest

I politely decline your request , but perhaps you would like to follow your own advice ?

 

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

It will be over when it’s over and posting videos from YouTube armchair critics is meaningless - for every one that says the Russians will win this week, there’s at least one that disagrees and says otherwise

That all maybe true , but according to mainstream news, the Ukrainians are winning , and Russia is on its last tank, this is clearly not true. We need a more balanced view , otherwise we can't form a balanced opinion. 

 

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

his is a David vs Goliath grind down; it could still be going on in some form by this time next year

As I've said , this will be over when the US/NATO says so, unless Ukraine wants to carry on by throwing rocks at tanks.

[ordnance]

Quote

Quote Rewulf He's Ukrainian,  he hates Russia,  and he analyses war data. 

He is Canadian and in his own words (   I analyze war movies, video games and react to other Youtube videos. ) and you post it as ( This is a latest assessment from a pro Ukrainian analyst, it confirms much of what I surmised the last few days ) Seriously 

Quote

You'll make yourself look less silly,  if you actually watch the video, then form an opinion based on what he's saying,  rather than work from the assumption that because I've posted it,  it can't be any good? 

Unlike you i do not place much credence on the views of a guy on YouTube that analyses (  video games and war movies ) when it comes to real world events in Ukraine,  but it does explain where you get your views and information from. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by ordnance

[Mungler]

10 hours ago, Rewulf said:

As I've said , this will be over when the US/NATO says so, unless Ukraine wants to carry on by throwing rocks at tanks.

Rocks at tanks?

The HIMARS whilst in short supply are knocking out lots of expensive ammo dumps, bridges, air bases etc. Then there was that shiny new warship and all those expensive planes, and in the background the Russian state and economy is looking more like North Korea.

Add in the $36 million in guided weaponry used to just flatten the Hall of Officers and more recently the home for the deaf, I don’t see where the boxes aren’t being ticked?

For so long as the Ukrainians want to keep fighting and resisting the Russians, and for so long as the Russians won’t leave and for so long as the West keeps giving Ukraine enough kit to hold the Russians up, then this still looks like a bigger Russian problem to me.

[ordnance]

Quote

That all maybe true , but according to mainstream news, the Ukrainians are winning.

I have not seen any mainstream media stating the Ukrainian's are winning, they have reported some battles the Ukrainian's have won but not the war. But IMO no matter what happens the Russians / Putin have already lost when you look at their original objectives. Russia is and will be a pariah state for decades, Finland and Sweden are joining NATO, it has strengthened NATO, the west are obtaining altertinave energy sources, western companies have pulled out of Russia, its a disaster for Russia that's only going to get worse the longer the war goes on. 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, ordnance said:

I have not seen any mainstream media stating the Ukrainian's are winning, they have reported some battles the Ukrainian's have won but not the war. But IMO no matter what happens the Russians / Putin have already lost when you look at their original objectives. Russia is and will be a pariah state for decades, Finland and Sweden are joining NATO, it has strengthened NATO, the west are obtaining altertinave energy sources, western companies have pulled out of Russia, its a disaster for Russia that's only going to get worse the longer the war goes on. 

Russia had lost at the point of getting stopped at Kiev. 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, ordnance said:

no matter what happens the Russians / Putin have already lost when you look at their original objectives. Russia is and will be a pariah state for decades, Finland and Sweden are joining NATO, it has strengthened NATO, the west are obtaining altertinave energy sources, western companies have pulled out of Russia, its a disaster for Russia that's only going to get worse the longer the war goes on.

/\  This.  Whats more - just like their time in Afghanistan, there will be continuous 'resistance' attacks that will make it untennable - just as they eventually found Afghanistan was.

[Mungler]

24 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

/\  This.  Whats more - just like their time in Afghanistan, there will be continuous 'resistance' attacks that will make it untennable - just as they eventually found Afghanistan was.

Agreed. How many men / resources required to hold Ukraine ? The numbers are ridiculous and unsustainable.

[Rewulf]

All be over by Christmas lads 😂

[Jim Neal]

30 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

All be over by Christmas lads 😂

I note that you don't specify which year......

[Gordon R]

It would be nice if it was over by this Christmas, with Russia - led by Putin or not - withdrew. Sadly, many more will die because of his ego trip.

[Rewulf]

13 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

13 hours ago, Rewulf said:

All be over by Christmas lads 😂

I note that you don't specify which year......

The Xmas thing is a satirical echo of what some said at the start of WW1.
In that, one side would cave in pretty quickly, in the case of WW1 , we ended up with 20 million dead after 5 years of fighting, that changed the landscape of Europe, and still haunts us to this day.
Thats before we even talk about how it directly caused WW2 and the subsequent cold war with the ussr.
Interestingly , Russias involvement in WW1 lead directly to its 2nd and final revolution into the soviet state.
Truly the 20 th century is unequalled in its body count, we could blame Gavrilo Princip I suppose, or the aristocracy for their utter disregard for the suffering their wars brought to the common man.

In the case of Ukraine, you can take the Xmas analogy one of two ways.
It will all be over when the Russian war machine , feared by the west for 70 years, rolls over Ukraine in a couple of weeks, this obviously didnt happen.
Or, the Russian war machine , crippled by economic disaster at home, with western sanctions destroying the rouble , and public opinion in the regime, is forced to withdraw, while Putin is deposed/killed/dies of nasty disease.
Obviously this didnt happen either.

This war could end in a couple of days.
But there is no will in any of the participants to do so....
It would perhaps help if there werent so many TBH , if anyone still thinks this is a war between just Russia and Ukraine, then they need to give themselves a slap up side of the head, the US/NATO are active participants in weapon supply, training,  intelligence, and likely manpower in some capacity.

Russia has a fully functional , active economy, with plenty of finances, a lot of it perversely supplied by the very countries supporting Ukraine.
Its weapon manufacturing industry will be spinning up to full war footing, and it has several million reservists it could call up.
Ukraines economy and infrastructure are walking wounded, foreign mercs, paid for by the US, are a large chunk of its front line.
It relies on the US/NATO for money, weapons,  ammunition, and air/space intelligence, without this support, it could not continue.
Even so, they are losing ground daily.

We can argue all day about how Russia should 'just' withdraw, but hoping for that is just a waste of thought, its not going to happen, for a multitude of reasons.
We could hope for a proper round of negotiations, rather than the charade thats happened so far, but like Ive said, too many fingers in the pie to even hope.
So where does that leave them ? Attrition , that Ukraine cannot afford, a slow death of a 1000 cuts ?
Zelenskys latest ploy is to call for a UN buffer zone around the Zaphorizhia NPP and the Russian held town of Enerhodor, (the two areas that NATO KNOW Ukraine keeps shelling. But are happy to remain silent as Ukraine blames Russia for shelling itself.~)
This obviously to protect against any 'accident' that may release radiation, that will obviously be Russias fault.
I find it strange how he never called for UN peacekeepers around Donbass, an act that likely could have averted the invasion entirely ?

As I often say about things, 'Follow the money' and in this case, we have a tough winter coming up in Europe, and a highly disolusioned electorate in the US, will the west cut its losses in Ukraine, will Zelensky be 'removed' ?
One thing is for sure , this , like Christmas 1914 , hasnt gone the way people thought it would, and if we want to avoid a similar catastrophe, it needs to end, as peacefully as it can.

[ordnance]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The Xmas thing is a satirical echo of what some said at the start of WW1.
In that, one side would cave in pretty quickly, in the case of WW1 , we ended up with 20 million dead after 5 years of fighting, that changed the landscape of Europe, and still haunts us to this day.
Thats before we even talk about how it directly caused WW2 and the subsequent cold war with the ussr.
Interestingly , Russias involvement in WW1 lead directly to its 2nd and final revolution into the soviet state.
Truly the 20 th century is unequalled in its body count, we could blame Gavrilo Princip I suppose, or the aristocracy for their utter disregard for the suffering their wars brought to the common man.

In the case of Ukraine, you can take the Xmas analogy one of two ways.
It will all be over when the Russian war machine , feared by the west for 70 years, rolls over Ukraine in a couple of weeks, this obviously didnt happen.
Or, the Russian war machine , crippled by economic disaster at home, with western sanctions destroying the rouble , and public opinion in the regime, is forced to withdraw, while Putin is deposed/killed/dies of nasty disease.
Obviously this didnt happen either.

This war could end in a couple of days.
But there is no will in any of the participants to do so....
It would perhaps help if there werent so many TBH , if anyone still thinks this is a war between just Russia and Ukraine, then they need to give themselves a slap up side of the head, the US/NATO are active participants in weapon supply, training,  intelligence, and likely manpower in some capacity.

Russia has a fully functional , active economy, with plenty of finances, a lot of it perversely supplied by the very countries supporting Ukraine.
Its weapon manufacturing industry will be spinning up to full war footing, and it has several million reservists it could call up.
Ukraines economy and infrastructure are walking wounded, foreign mercs, paid for by the US, are a large chunk of its front line.
It relies on the US/NATO for money, weapons,  ammunition, and air/space intelligence, without this support, it could not continue.
Even so, they are losing ground daily.

We can argue all day about how Russia should 'just' withdraw, but hoping for that is just a waste of thought, its not going to happen, for a multitude of reasons.
We could hope for a proper round of negotiations, rather than the charade thats happened so far, but like Ive said, too many fingers in the pie to even hope.
So where does that leave them ? Attrition , that Ukraine cannot afford, a slow death of a 1000 cuts ?
Zelenskys latest ploy is to call for a UN buffer zone around the Zaphorizhia NPP and the Russian held town of Enerhodor, (the two areas that NATO KNOW Ukraine keeps shelling. But are happy to remain silent as Ukraine blames Russia for shelling itself.~)
This obviously to protect against any 'accident' that may release radiation, that will obviously be Russias fault.
I find it strange how he never called for UN peacekeepers around Donbass, an act that likely could have averted the invasion entirely ?

As I often say about things, 'Follow the money' and in this case, we have a tough winter coming up in Europe, and a highly disolusioned electorate in the US, will the west cut its losses in Ukraine, will Zelensky be 'removed' ?
One thing is for sure , this , like Christmas 1914 , hasnt gone the way people thought it would, and if we want to avoid a similar catastrophe, it needs to end, as peacefully as it can.

Yes any damage to nuclear power plants would be Russia fault, they invaded Ukraine putting them at risk.

[ordnance]

6 minutes ago, ordnance said:

e 🤔

Edit 

Edited August 19, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, ordnance said:

Yes any damage to nuclear power plants would be Russia fault, they invaded Ukraine putting them at risk.

I see the err, logic..

So when we invaded Iraq, if Saddam had used his imaginary WMDs on us , it would have been OUR fault ?

At least youre not questioning the fact that Ukraine is damaging the plant to cause an international reaction, so well done on that one.

[Mungler]

This all started with Russia; nothing to do with Ukraine (of no threat) or NATO (not bothered but thanks for giving Finland and Sweden a push).

This is bleeding Russia hard, their choice, their invasion and their tough luck. You say follow the money, what’s their return on this little escapade?

The Ukrainians know they’re up against it but still they go on - because they don’t fancy what the Russians are selling. Their choice and I’m glad they are getting support from the rest of the world.

Putin made a big mistake - opened the door to the US sponsoring Ukraine and sitting safely at the side lines. I think the Americans can’t believe their luck or Putin’s stupidity.

[ordnance]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I see the err, logic..

So when we invaded Iraq, if Saddam had used his imaginary WMDs on us , it would have been OUR fault ?

At least youre not questioning the fact that Ukraine is damaging the plant to cause an international reaction, so well done on that one.

I am not questioning if Ukraine is damaging the plant to cause an international reaction because i don't know, I don't have the inside knowledge you do, maybe if you shared your evidence ? If people broke into someone house attacked the owner and their family, would you blame the house owner for the damage to the house that happened while he was trying to protect himself and his family  

Quote

Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.

Quote

The Ukrainians know they’re up against it but still they go on - because they don’t fancy what the Russians are selling. Their choice and I’m glad they are getting support from the rest of the world.

Correct because they have lived it in the past and have no wish to return to Russian rule. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by ordnance

[oowee]

So Russia is likely prepping a nuclear bomb in Ukraine and the world is silent. The Tories have all but given up on any direction for the Uk and we all wait to see what will unfold (article 5?) This govt is a complete shambles. At a time of world crisis we say nothing. It's chamberlain all over again. 

[Mice!]

55 minutes ago, oowee said:

So Russia is likely prepping a nuclear bomb in Ukraine and the world is silent. The Tories have all but given up on any direction for the Uk and we all wait to see what will unfold (article 5?) This govt is a complete shambles. At a time of world crisis we say nothing. It's chamberlain all over again. 

Why would Russia nuke the Ukraine?

After that the crops and country are useless. 

[Mungler]

13 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Why would Russia nuke the Ukraine?

After that the crops and country are useless. 

 

Why would Ukraine nuke the Ukraine? 

Stolen from elsewhere:

“I simply cannot believe what Mordor is doing with the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant.

First they stuff it full of vehicles and weapons, including the turbine halls. Well, assuming you are a bunch of genocidal savages, that's quite smart, because nobody is going to shell a nuclear power plant.

Then they shell a nuclear power plant. Only the Russian orcs, eh? The logic, apparently, is to blame it on UKR, and you won't actually blow it up, it's meant to survive a missile strike, you shouldn't release any radiation provided you are careful not to hit anywhere where waste nuclear materials are stored.

Then they hit the place where waste nuclear materials are stored. Still, it's not THAT much radiation they will release, it's not going to be Chernobyl. It's not like they've mined it to blow up.

Now they've mined it to blow up. And, ominously, given everyone the day off. While insisting furiously that Ukraine is doing the shelling and that it’s Ukraine that plans to blow the place up.

I mean, what are they DOING? They might be able to convince many of the world's dingbats and loonies it is Ukraine's fault if it blows, but is that compensation? The winds are unpredictable this time of year and it isn't that far from the Russian border. Is Sauron seriously ready to irradiate his own people and blame it on Ukraine so he has an excuse for pulling out, or, worse, ending the story with nukes?

You would not think he'd dare, or be that crazy, but no one thought he'd dare, or be crazy enough, to blow up 300 of his own citizens as an excuse to attack Chechnya.

Almost no one thought he'd dare, or be crazy enough, to start a genocidal war of conquest with Ukraine.”

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

mean, what are they DOING? They might be able to convince many of the world's dingbats and loonies it is Ukraine's fault if it blows, but is that compensation? The winds are unpredictable this time of year and it isn't that far from the Russian border. Is Sauron seriously ready to irradiate his own people and blame it on Ukraine so he has an excuse for pulling out, or, worse, ending the story with nukes?

You would not think he'd dare, or be that crazy, but no one thought he'd dare, or be crazy enough, to blow up 300 of his own citizens as an excuse to attack Chechnya.

Almost no one thought he'd dare, or be crazy enough, to start a genocidal war of conquest with Ukraine.”

Well you've lost me on most of that??

300 Russians so they could invade Chechnya, they wouldn't be concerned about that.

Is the power plant ready to blow? Is it the only nuclear power plant? 

I still don't imagine they'll blow it, but I'm  not a nutter.

As for thinking he wouldn't invade the Ukraine,  why not, he's done it twice before and will probably do it again. 

 

[Jim Neal]

9 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The Xmas thing is a satirical echo of what some said at the start of WW1.

 

As was my comment

As an aside, there's a really good YouTube channel called "The Great War" which I'd thoroughly recommend if people want to learn more.  It's a week-by-week documentary, kind of presented a bit like a news round-up.  There's also loads of extra episodes like the events leading up to the war, the post-war era, the technology used and so on.  They went on to do a WW2 one as well, the channel not surprisingly being called "World War Two", plus a few other off-shoots. I really like the way the videos are written and presented and have thoroughly enjoyed following them all.  The only downside is because they are bite-sized videos between 10 and 20 minutes, if you binge them the intro/outro format becomes a bit monotonous but you can always skip through....

I wonder if there's going to be a spontaneous game of football in the snow on 25/12/22........

[oowee]

10 hours ago, Mice! said:

Well you've lost me on most of that??

300 Russians so they could invade Chechnya, they wouldn't be concerned about that.

Is the power plant ready to blow? Is it the only nuclear power plant? 

I still don't imagine they'll blow it, but I'm  not a nutter.

As for thinking he wouldn't invade the Ukraine,  why not, he's done it twice before and will probably do it again. 

 

It's ready to blow apparently and now we are told it will be shut down. Done properly this would take six months but apparently Russia can do it in two days. Its the largest plant in the Europe / the World. Where is our Govt in all of this????? The tories are a complete waste of space.

[Newbie to this]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's ready to blow apparently and now we are told it will be shut down. Done properly this would take six months but apparently Russia can do it in two days. Its the largest plant in the Europe / the World. Where is our Govt in all of this????? The tories are a complete waste of space.

Enlighten me, what has it got to do with the UK government?

[Mice!]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's ready to blow apparently and now we are told it will be shut down. Done properly this would take six months but apparently Russia can do it in two days. Its the largest plant in the Europe / the World. Where is our Govt in all of this????? The tories are a complete waste of space.

OK, but what has it got to do with our Government?

[Dave-G]

51 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's ready to blow apparently and now we are told it will be shut down. Done properly this would take six months but apparently Russia can do it in two days. Its the largest plant in the Europe / the World. Where is our Govt in all of this????? The tories are a complete waste of space.

Has your account been hacked?

So we are currently rudderless thanks to persistent lefty biatching that achieved their goal - Boris out.

We have our own trouble here ATM but what are you thinking UK government should be doing about an issue in eastern Europe that could provoke WW3?

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Dave-G