The end of lead - Extract from the RSPB and WWT letter - via the BASC website

[PeterHenry]

11 hours ago, Sweet11-87 said:

i fully agree with  PeterHenry

in europe shooting doesent seem to get hit as hard as here and it certainly doesnt in the states because its just way more present in everyday life.  shooting in the uk will win over so many more folks and survive  if i has more of a presence in the "norm" of society.

one of many ways we can do that is to get game meat out their and become common place. it shouldnt be weird or pompus to eat  pheasent, pigeon or rabbit. So if the food chain will only accept meat shot with non toxic shot or even if people just arnt comftable eating lead shot game  regardless of the science we need to move away from it like PeterHenry said we need to show we can be reasonable and open to change.

 

 

👍

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

But I'd be surprised if the price won't come down with time.

Not a chance, they said that with the 17HMR ammunition 15 years ago, more than doubled now. I fear the “cheap” £15 a box for a far inferior cartridge is as good as it will get. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, PeterHenry said:

I don't think painting pepole as 'drinking cool aid' is going to help particularly. I'm not a cult member and I have no great love of soft drinks.

I bet youre a BASC member though , and youve certainly swallowed their entire catalogue of BS.

[PeterHenry]

18 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

Not a chance, they said that with the 17HMR ammunition 15 years ago, more than doubled now. I fear the “cheap” £15 a box for a far inferior cartridge is as good as it will get. 

We shall both have to see - but I hope you are wrong.

15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I bet youre a BASC member though , and youve certainly swallowed their entire catalogue of BS.

I am a BASC member. As for swallowing their 'entire catalogue of BS' - I note that that you haven't objected to any particular point in my posts - only to tar me / BASC in a broad and vague way.

Let me ask you - do you have any sort of coherent plan to try and safeguard shooting? Can you reasonably object to what the shooting organisations are doing - or do you think its all a ploy and that BASC / CA / NGO / etc are all in cahoots with Mark Avery / Chris Packham / Carrie Johnson / etc?

I've looked at what the organisations are trying to do - its obvious and logical when you take a step back. I don't particularly want to loose lead, but I've tried my best here to explain the (good) reasons (in the round) behind doing it from a shooters perspective.

If we are going to carry this conversation on, at least advance some sort of argument.

Edited April 6, 2022 by PeterHenry

[udderlyoffroad]

15 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

If we are going to carry this conversation on, at least advance some sort of argument.

Good luck with that - these threads tend to follow this path:

"Something must be done!  BASC are appalling!"

"Such as?"

<crickets>

The peanut gallery of BASC-Bashers on PW (AKA The WAGBI Nostalgia Preservation Society) long since stopped presenting any viable solution.

I'm no fan of BASC's....er, trajectory re non-tox, nor their apparent lack of consultation, but instead of re-hashing the outrage from 2 years ago, certain folk on here would do well to move on.

It's eerily reminiscent of the most hard core of remainers (the FBPE types if social medja is your thing) continuing to be outraged that *every* bit of bad news is somehow the fault of Brexit.

Anyway, here's the link to the original statement the OP is referring to, with this rather interesting quote:

Quote

It is worth noting that the RSPB and WWT chose not to approach the shooting organisations for co-operation or comment before publishing this open letter.

So, I'd be very interested to hear how BASC or indeed any other organisation could've known this was coming and pre-empted it?  Crystal balls are on back-order everywhere.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Let me ask you - do you have any sort of coherent plan to try and safeguard shooting?

I do yes.
First part, get as many people into shooting sports of all disciplines as possible, fresh blood.
Ive been successful in this , as over the last 8 years, Ive introduced at least 60 people into the sport, Im a secretary at 2 FAC clubs , and help run a clay club.
Ive got people into target, clay and vermin control.

Second part, dump BASC as the 'voice of shooting'
They dont speak for everyone , and when they do speak , its usually to sell us out.
This includes, lead, doctors letters , legal insurance ect , they make some noise , then they give up before it costs them any money.
They are a bloated , profit inspired organisation, whose interests lie in the big estate , big shoot concept, a small part of their membership , but the most profitable.

6 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Can you reasonably object to what the shooting organisations are doing - or do you think its all a ploy and that BASC / CA / NGO / etc are all in cahoots with Mark Avery / Chris Packham / Carrie Johnson / etc?

I dont think they are in 'cahoots' , but they dont exactly meet them head on do they ?
The 3 blokes from the Squire who took Packham to task, now being sued for defamation, where is BASCs support for them ?
BASC fail at every juncture where it starts to cost them money.

They need their revenue streams cutting , and many members leaving has cost them subscriptions and advertising reach.
When it hits a certain point, THEN they might start listening to the remaining few.

7 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I've looked at what the organisations are trying to do - its obvious and logical when you take a step back. I don't particularly want to loose lead, but I've tried my best here to explain the (good) reasons (in the round) behind doing it from a shooters perspective.

Its obvious that most of the things BASC has messed up on over the past few years , have turned people away from shooting, whether this is intentional or not is debateable, but the effect is the same.
Reduce the numbers of people who hold tickets , or participate, and you have quietened down the voice of dissent when an unwelcome change happens.

BASC arent bothered by this , as they know their hard core of game shoots , grouse and stalking syndicates, will not be effected by the rising costs that will come with more restrictions.
The little man , the rimfire pest controllers, pigeon men , and casual shooters were never any more than an encumberance in the grand scheme of things.
The fact they made up the bulk of BASCs membership was the main reason why there was never any vote about the direction the organisation was heading.

7 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So, I'd be very interested to hear how BASC or indeed any other organisation could've known this was coming and pre-empted it?  Crystal balls are on back-order everywhere.

 

3 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

So, I'd be very interested to hear how BASC or indeed any other organisation could've known this was coming and pre-empted it?  Crystal balls are on back-order everywhere.

Id be very interested to know why the direction changed from the days of 2016, they didnt know it was coming ? Of course they did, there was a time they would have fought for it , because they knew the membership would have wanted that.
But instead they chose to peculiarly about face , then sell us on the 'path of inevitability' 
Ive never seen any explanation of this 180 degree turn, but I suspect the truth would be very unpalatable.

https://basc.org.uk/dont-ignore-the-science-on-lead-basc-says/

[8 shot]

The above just about sums up the state of the agricultural organisations as well. Very very well said. 

[oowee]

16 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I am 56 and have been shooting since I was seven and am seriously considering throwing the towel in .

Be sure to pass on your perm's when you go. 👍

To me, It makes total sense. We all love the countryside why spoil it creating and spewing waste out into it? 

[PeterHenry]

50 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I do yes.
First part, get as many people into shooting sports of all disciplines as possible, fresh blood.
Ive been successful in this , as over the last 8 years, Ive introduced at least 60 people into the sport, Im a secretary at 2 FAC clubs , and help run a clay club.
Ive got people into target, clay and vermin control.

Second part, dump BASC as the 'voice of shooting'
They dont speak for everyone , and when they do speak , its usually to sell us out.
This includes, lead, doctors letters , legal insurance ect , they make some noise , then they give up before it costs them any money.
They are a bloated , profit inspired organisation, whose interests lie in the big estate , big shoot concept, a small part of their membership , but the most profitable.

I dont think they are in 'cahoots' , but they dont exactly meet them head on do they ?
The 3 blokes from the Squire who took Packham to task, now being sued for defamation, where is BASCs support for them ?
BASC fail at every juncture where it starts to cost them money.

They need their revenue streams cutting , and many members leaving has cost them subscriptions and advertising reach.
When it hits a certain point, THEN they might start listening to the remaining few.

Its obvious that most of the things BASC has messed up on over the past few years , have turned people away from shooting, whether this is intentional or not is debateable, but the effect is the same.
Reduce the numbers of people who hold tickets , or participate, and you have quietened down the voice of dissent when an unwelcome change happens.

BASC arent bothered by this , as they know their hard core of game shoots , grouse and stalking syndicates, will not be effected by the rising costs that will come with more restrictions.
The little man , the rimfire pest controllers, pigeon men , and casual shooters were never any more than an encumberance in the grand scheme of things.
The fact they made up the bulk of BASCs membership was the main reason why there was never any vote about the direction the organisation was heading.

 

Id be very interested to know why the direction changed from the days of 2016, they didnt know it was coming ? Of course they did, there was a time they would have fought for it , because they knew the membership would have wanted that.
But instead they chose to peculiarly about face , then sell us on the 'path of inevitability' 
Ive never seen any explanation of this 180 degree turn, but I suspect the truth would be very unpalatable.

https://basc.org.uk/dont-ignore-the-science-on-lead-basc-says/

1 - on your first point, I am sure you, I and BASC agree. Thats the reason for their Young Shots program and part of the reason for their presence at game fairs. Anyway, you have my genuine thanks - and I'm sure everyone else's - for getting new pepole involved in shooting.

2 - I'm not going to claim BASC are perfect, but they fight with their hands tied behind their back. Shooting in this country is a minority activity. They can't fall back on a pro firearms constitution, they can't call a general strike. Lots of options that unions or other campaigning organisations in other countries have, BASC do not. Their three options are - lobby / advise, stress their membership numbers to politicians, be party to legal action when it occurs, or if there is a realistic chance of changing the law in shootings favour.

Re the 'big estates' that you sugest they favour over the man in the street - they have identified (reasonably enough) that massive amounts of dead pheseants going to waste is not a good look with the public, especially when you have a vocal minority shouting about it and bringing it to everyones attention - so they are doing something to change that. Because for better or for worse, when someone in 2022 mentions shooting, pepole think about pheseants. Its a matter of public perception on top of a waste of food as a resource. For most pepole in the UK, pigeon shooting is not something that even register's - and neither is shooting vermin with a rimfire rifle, etc.

And for all the talk of BASCs coffers (to which I am not privy) I can guarantee that they are nothing that would not evaporate in the blink of an eye following a couple of badly misjudged legal actions. They need to pick their fights.

Regarding the Country Squire magazine and Chris Packham. I am willing to wager that BASC has a corporate constitution that they are required to follow by law, and this in turn will goven what they can support. If that is the case (and I haven't read BASC's constitution, but it is alluded to on their website in places when I've had a quick look) I don't see how they could support three individuals in a defamation case that centers around tigers. I can see why you think it would be beneficial in a culture wars type way for them to do so - but I doubt they would be able to do it, because on the face of it, it has nothing to do with shooting.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by PeterHenry

[clangerman]

once the basc scam of throwing lead under the bus to buy game shooting more time is followed by one for plastic they will have nothing left but to address the real objection to game shooting and come royally unstuck traitorous actions bring a just reward rightly so 

[PeterHenry]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

once the basc scam of throwing lead under the bus to buy game shooting more time is followed by one for plastic they will have nothing left but to address the real objection to game shooting and come royally unstuck traitorous actions bring a just reward rightly so 

If that was the case, it would lead you to wonder why they would try to get rid of either in the first place....

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Their three options are - lobby / advise, stress their membership numbers to politicians, be party to legal action when it occurs, or if there is a realistic chance of changing the law in shootings favour.

When has BASC ever achieved anything like this .
It seems every action by firearms , police or government that is detrimental to shooting, gets , at best , an opinion piece on BASCs website, a promise to 'do something' , then gets quietly forgotten about.
The doctors letter is a glaring example of this , BASCs advice , dont do it , we are going to fight this , then , nothing , leaving many in the lurch.
Unacceptable.

28 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Re the 'big estates' that you sugest they favour over the man in the street - they have identified (reasonably enough) that massive amounts of dead pheseants going to waste is not a good look with the public, especially when you have a vocal minority shouting about it and bringing it to everyones attention - so they are doing something to change that. Because for better or for worse, when someone in 2022 mentions shooting, pepole think about pheseants. Its a matter of public perception on top of a waste of food as a resource. For most pepole in the UK, pigeon shooting is not something that even register's - and neither is shooting vermin with a rimfire rifle, etc.

I agree , the pheasant wastage thing is bad , but its the estates to blame.
But to suggest the small time shooters, who most definitely make up the bulk of BASCs membership, dont matter, because the public dont know much about them ?
 

28 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

And for all the talk of BASCs coffers (to which I am not privy) I can guarantee that they are nothing that would not evaporate in the blink of an eye following a couple of badly misjudged legal actions. They need to pick their fights.

Agreed in principal.
But BASC dont fight anything. And thats a fact.

29 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Regarding the Country Squire magazine and Chris Packham. I am willing to wager that BASC has a corporate constitution that they are required to follow by law, and this in turn will goven what they can support. If that is the case (and I haven't read BASC's constitution, but it is alluded to on their website in places when I've had a quick look) I don't see how they could support three individuals in a defamation case that centers around tigers. I can see why you think it would be beneficial in a culture wars type way for them to do so - but I doubt they would be able to do it, because on the face of it, it has nothing to do with shooting.

BASC have made it very clear , Packham et al , are the 'enemy'
Despite the fact that Country squire arent defending a shooting case, they often ARE defending against Packhams frequent attempts to torpedo shooting live quarry in this country.
If this isnt a case that BASC would like to see robustly defended, Im not sure what is .

Their silence is deafening.

[8 shot]

If Big Bag Commercial shoots are the main reason for this lead transition then I’d rather they moderated there bags considerably or stop completely rather than force the likes of the dozen or so smaller farm shoots I beat and shoot on, where all the game is taken home one way or another, stop shooting. Or if there is such a market for game birds let these “businesses” comply with all the assurance schemes and us pot shooters and pest controllers simply carry on as we are. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

If Big Bag Commercial shoots are the main reason for this lead transition then I’d rather they moderated there bags considerably or stop completely rather than force the likes of the dozen or so smaller farm shoots I beat and shoot on, where all the game is taken home one way or another, stop shooting. Or if there is such a market for game birds let these “businesses” comply with all the assurance schemes and us pot shooters and pest controllers simply carry on as we are. 

The difference is money, the big shoots , with thousands charged per peg, or grouse shoots with tens of thousands charged per outing, will do as they choose.
These are the type of shoots  BASC fight tooth and nail for, they are the ones that feature most often in the magazine and publicity blurbs.
They couldnt care less how much non lead ammunition costs , because their patrons could easily afford it , and the more exclusive/elite the sport becomes, makes it more and more attractive.... and more profitable.

There was a time in this country organised game shooting was exclusive to the very wealthy, for decades the ordinary man on the street has been able to dip his toe into syndicated game shoots.
The removal of lead is one of the first steps toward making this type of shooting more expensive , and more out of reach to those less well heeled.

There are already talks of clay shooting going down a similar road, deer stalking is moving to non lead , and target shooting after that.

Those 'little' men with their rimfires ? There is NO viable non lead alternative to their ammunition.

[Old farrier]

Well 

sadly it’s the way !!!! It’s being done that’s the main issue 

no consultation with either the members or the cartridge manufacturers 

no though to replace or exempt air rifle or small bore rifle 

no though to anyone with a older shotgun with short chamber or tight chokes 

infact no though for anyone 

the government must love this at the stroke of a pen they have made tens of thousands of guns obsolete or worthless 

cost the cartridge manufacturers millions and got the easiest excuse to take your license off you in the future 

 

[8 shot]

Yes that is all disturbingly true, BUT if you put your game in the food chain for others then you comply, simples. We are all prepared to take it home and all live to tell the tale of the day. I am a BASC member (for now) but i agree they are very very weak for there size of membership, i guess it's down to the people that you employ.

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The difference is money, the big shoots , with thousands charged per peg, or grouse shoots with tens of thousands charged per outing, will do as they choose.
These are the type of shoots  BASC fight tooth and nail for, they are the ones that feature most often in the magazine and publicity blurbs.
They couldnt care less how much non lead ammunition costs , because their patrons could easily afford it , and the more exclusive/elite the sport becomes, makes it more and more attractive.... and more profitable.

There was a time in this country organised game shooting was exclusive to the very wealthy, for decades the ordinary man on the street has been able to dip his toe into syndicated game shoots.
The removal of lead is one of the first steps toward making this type of shooting more expensive , and more out of reach to those less well heeled.

There are already talks of clay shooting going down a similar road, deer stalking is moving to non lead , and target shooting after that.

Those 'little' men with their rimfires ? There is NO viable non lead alternative to their ammunition.

 

[enfieldspares]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I bet youre a BASC member though , and youve certainly swallowed their entire catalogue of BS.

LOL. And sadly true for many who pay their money to Marford Mill. Yet have now no legal cover. Me? I'm now with the CPSA. Who still provide legal cover in case of refusal to renew or in case of revocation AND, yes, cpover game shooting, stalking, vermin shooting and etc. as well as clay pigeon shooting. Oh...and cheaper than BASC!

https://www.cpsa.co.uk/files/download/532/CPSA-Insurance-Leaflet.pdf

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, 8 shot said:

they are very very weak for there size of membership, i guess it's down to the people that you employ.

Its down to the direction they have decided to take.
They have decided to save the big money part of shooting, by sacrificing  the rest of us.

6 years ago , there was NO evidence that lead was a problem (according to BASC themselves) AND the government agreed with them.
2 years ago , they did a complete about face , decided lead was killing us all and has to go.
No consultation, no argument , BASC has decided what EVERY shooter in the country wants and needs.

I smell a rat.

[Walker570]

Already planning to reload bismuth for the coming season and have been using all copper for my rifles for about 10 years although still shooting some lead core from supplies in stock.   Have no intention of letting this little blip annoy me and will try and carry on as normal. Killing things.

[Old farrier]

6 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Already planning to reload bismuth for the coming season and have been using all copper for my rifles for about 10 years although still shooting some lead core from supplies in stock.   Have no intention of letting this little blip annoy me and will try and carry on as normal. Killing things.

And your 22rimfire ?

 It’s easy to reload with forward planning loading now for the season 

If you can get the components and equipment needed 

but why should you have to given thought and consultation with the manufacturers it would be available 

it’s not!!

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Already planning to reload bismuth for the coming season and have been using all copper for my rifles for about 10 years although still shooting some lead core from supplies in stock.   Have no intention of letting this little blip annoy me and will try and carry on as normal. Killing things.

As will I , Im not giving up, but many will .

The less we are in number , the quieter our voices will be, then the next restriction will be all the more easier to implement.

2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

And your 22rimfire ?

This is one of the biggest issues, the entry level gun for 99% of shooters, without new blood coming in at the bottom, private firearm ownership in the UK is doomed.
It wont be overnight, it probably wont be 10 years, but without the accessibility of your smaller calibres, its time is limited.

[Weihrauch17]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Be sure to pass on your perm's when you go. 👍

To me, It makes total sense. We all love the countryside why spoil it creating and spewing waste out into it? 

Lead is a natural element, we have shot it for 100's of years and I have seen no evidence of any pollution from it's use unlike plastic cups from steel.  It is already banned on Wetlands so that argument doesn't stand up.  Shooting in Commercial Forestry with steel is a no no.  If Commercial shoots want to sell their birds into the food chain let them use steel, why penalise everyone else who doesn't put what they shoot into it.  Why penalise small bore and air rifle users and Pest Controllers?  Has anyone in history ever died from eating Lead shot game?  With Wheat at £300 a tonne and Poults at £12.50 and rising who will be able to afford to shoot Game except the very rich, with milder winters Game wanders anyway.  Our shoot fees were £550 last season and we shot 40 or so birds out of the 600 we put down, it was a shocking season by far the worst in my 23 years of membership and now I am told they may be over £1000 this time.  I can't justify the cost of that.  I would like to continue Pigeon shooting but the cost of fuel and the fact I won't litter the countryside with Plastic cups will probably see the end of that as well once Lead goes.  I am not using expensive eco wads to Pigeon shoot.

[enfieldspares]

Of course BASC could have followed what they do in New Zealand. I made the same comment on Stalking Directory. The suggestion was dismissed by BASC as "not being suitable for the conditions in the UK". Be assured IMHO that is clear evidence that it's ALL about big bags and the rest of us can go hang as it is clear to anyone who reads the New Zealand rules.

https://fishandgame.org.nz/game-bird-hunting-in-new-zealand/hunting-regulations/non-toxic-shot-regulations/

Which says:

Who's affected?

ALL waterfowl hunters including private landowners hunting on their own property

ALL waterfowl hunters hunting or killing waterfowl within 200m of water

ALL hunters of waterfowl (swans, ducks and pukeko)

Who's exempt?

ALL hunters of upland game (all quail and pheasants) are exempted. That's because research has shown these birds are not affected because the shot "in the uplands" is so widely dispersed

Users of a .410 bore shotgun

All hunters who pass the "200m rule test" (see below)

200-metre rule test:

If you're hunting waterfowl (swans, geese, ducks and pukeko), MORE THAN 200 metres from a water body, which is taken as any stream, river, lake or tidal area, "more than 3m wide," you can continue to use lead shot, if you wish. Lead shot that falls on land away from water is not a significant risk to waterfowl

If you are within 200m of a waterway, over 3 metres in width, and while upland game bird hunting with lead and encounter a duck, then either don't shoot at it with lead or cover your risk by using only non-toxic shot

If you are hunting BOTH upland AND waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3m in width, then you must use ONLY non-toxic shot

If you are hunting waterfowl within 200m of a waterway, more than 3 metres wide and you are in possession of BOTH lead and non-toxic ammunition you will be prosecuted. If your intention was to hunt upland game later with lead shot or to hunt waterfowl with lead later beyond the 200m rule, you need to be completely unambiguous about this. For instance, by keeping the lead ammunition back in the vehicle when you are hunting waterfowl within the 200m zone

If you hunt in a tidal area, then the 200m rule applies from the Mean High Water Mark. So you may be 500 metres away from the water's edge at low tide, but this is not a defence. Similarly, if you're hunting next to floodwaters it is the edge of the floodwater at that time that you measure the 200m from.

Edited April 6, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, Old farrier said:

And your 22rimfire ?

 It’s easy to reload with forward planning loading now for the season 

If you can get the components and equipment needed 

but why should you have to given thought and consultation with the manufacturers it would be available 

it’s not!!

From what I gather the main attack on lead is from the game processing industry and I do not see any interest in 22RF ammo as of yet.  All the restrictions from estates this season on days I have booked have been regarding lead in the birds and they cannot sell them as such.

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

LOL. And sadly true for many who pay their money to Marford Mill. Yet have now no legal cover. Me? I'm now with the CPSA. Who still provide legal cover in case of refusal to renew or in case of revocation AND, yes, cpover game shooting, stalking, vermin shooting and etc. as well as clay pigeon shooting. Oh...and cheaper than BASC!

https://www.cpsa.co.uk/files/download/532/CPSA-Insurance-Leaflet.pdf

 NRA myself, still have legal cover and I think cover for all types shooting. I'm only target.