The end of lead - Extract from the RSPB and WWT letter - via the BASC website

[grahamch]

At the end of the day lead is going sooner or later, so stop moaning and accept the fact and move on. 

If steel is not your choice then look for something else, I cant see myself using more than a slab rough shooting per season so will buy a slab of bismuth and that will do. 

Yes it may be a bit expensive but not that bad in overall scheme of things - some one recently told me a pint in a pub now costs about a fiver, which seems a complete rip off, 

 

[Weihrauch17]

21 minutes ago, grahamch said:

At the end of the day lead is going sooner or later, so stop moaning and accept the fact and move on. 

If steel is not your choice then look for something else, I cant see myself using more than a slab rough shooting per season so will buy a slab of bismuth and that will do. 

Yes it may be a bit expensive but not that bad in overall scheme of things - some one recently told me a pint in a pub now costs about a fiver, which seems a complete rip off, 

 

Death by 1000 cuts and you just roll over with absolutely no evidence of any pollution from Lead.  Lets hope you don't get Jury Service.  Not everyone shoots a slab a year!

Edited April 6, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[8 shot]

15 minutes ago, grahamch said:

At the end of the day lead is going sooner or later, so stop moaning and accept the fact and move on. 

If steel is not your choice then look for something else, I cant see myself using more than a slab rough shooting per season so will buy a slab of bismuth and that will do. 

Yes it may be a bit expensive but not that bad in overall scheme of things - some one recently told me a pint in a pub now costs about a fiver, which seems a complete rip off, 

 

That's fine if that's all you use. What about us who have crops to protect as a farmer as well as recreational sport. Most of the pests don't go to the food chain, I've shot over 1000 shells in the last 6 to 8 weeks at crows and pigeons rough cost £450+. During this time i have used steel in various makes and sizes, plastic (picked up over 150 wads of the 180 shot on the drillings) and BioWads of two makes. I will be honest and say they were not as bad as expected but are still way short of lead.

[clangerman]

10 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Death by 1000 cuts and you just roll over with absolutely no evidence of any pollution from Lead.  Lets hope you don't get Jury Service.  Not everyone shoots a slab a year!

shut up and suck it up not hard to spot game shooters is it lol 

[Scully]

Everyone on this forum knows lead is toxic, just as everyone on this forum knows that eating lead shot game has never killed anyone, or even hospitalised them, but the general public has for generations now been fed a constant drip feed by all those with an agenda, that eating lead shot game or feeding it to your children will damage their health, conveniently overlooking the fact that it would have to be consumed in substantial quantities to do so.
It’s all about perception and survival really, both of which ultimately lead to money. The shooting organisations know they can’t survive without the huge industry that is commercial ( or non commercial….yes they do exist ) driven game shooting, and if that is to survive then the perception ( real or imagined ) by shot game consumers, that lead shot game is toxic, means they will not buy game shot with lead ( which in turn means the game dealers will not buy it from the providers, aka the commercial shoot industry ) then something has to change. 
The live quarry shooting organisations don’t care about blokes decoying pigeons, ferreters mooching about in the hedgerows, or trap shooters. Yes, they’ll all gladly take your money and sell you insurance; after all, every penny helps, but you don’t feature in their future, and that future is big commercial driven shoots, so that have to comply with public perception, and that’s all there is to it. 
I have been a member of most of the shooting organisations at one time or another, thinking I was playing my part, but ultimately found them all to fall short of expectation. I will never contribute another penny to any of them. Beyond the lobbying of influential organisations and influential people, they have nothing more to offer unfortunately. 
It isn’t the fault of any of them, it’s simply the way it is. This isn’t the USA and they aren’t the NRA, I genuinely wish they were. 
 

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, Scully said:

Everyone on this forum knows lead is toxic, just as everyone on this forum knows that eating lead shot game has never killed anyone, or even hospitalised them, but the general public has for generations now been fed a constant drip feed by all those with an agenda, that eating lead shot game or feeding it to your children will damage their health, conveniently overlooking the fact that it would have to be consumed in substantial quantities to do so.
It’s all about perception and survival really, both of which ultimately lead to money. The shooting organisations know they can’t survive without the huge industry that is commercial ( or non commercial….yes they do exist ) driven game shooting, and if that is to survive then the perception ( real or imagined ) by shot game consumers, that lead shot game is toxic, means they will not buy game shot with lead ( which in turn means the game dealers will not buy it from the providers, aka the commercial shoot industry ) then something has to change. 
The live quarry shooting organisations don’t care about blokes decoying pigeons, ferreters mooching about in the hedgerows, or trap shooters. Yes, they’ll all gladly take your money and sell you insurance; after all, every penny helps, but you don’t feature in their future, and that future is big commercial driven shoots, so that have to comply with public perception, and that’s all there is to it. 
I have been a member of most of the shooting organisations at one time or another, thinking I was playing my part, but ultimately found them all to fall short of expectation. I will never contribute another penny to any of them. Beyond the lobbying of influential organisations and influential people, they have nothing more to offer unfortunately. 
It isn’t the fault of any of them, it’s simply the way it is. This isn’t the USA and they aren’t the NRA, I genuinely wish they were. 
 

The very simple answer is that any shoot putting Game into the food chain uses steel or whatever, I can't see any reason why everyone else should have it foisted on them for absolutely no good reason.  You are right though all our Shooting Organisations are a total and utter waste of money.  It is simply another deep cut in the death of Shooting Sports of all kinds.  It will be a blanket ban for all disciplines.

[harkom]

On 05/04/2022 at 19:39, Weihrauch17 said:

Time to end BASC and not renew membership, they serve no purpose other than to be an enemy behind the lines for the Woke Greens.  I left when John Swift betrayed his membership.

Totally agree...but difficult to ditch them. Most local and regional wild fowling clubs have bsac membership fee included in the application/renewal subscription ....   sure beats me why, oh why these organisations have not woken up to the ****swift programme and legacy of shafting the membership. I guess it reflects on the level of dumbness of their committee members.

[8 shot]

At the end of the day we are not a country renown for our common sence.

[PeterHenry]

4 hours ago, Rewulf said:

When has BASC ever achieved anything like this .
It seems every action by firearms , police or government that is detrimental to shooting, gets , at best , an opinion piece on BASCs website, a promise to 'do something' , then gets quietly forgotten about.
The doctors letter is a glaring example of this , BASCs advice , dont do it , we are going to fight this , then , nothing , leaving many in the lurch.
Unacceptable.

I agree , the pheasant wastage thing is bad , but its the estates to blame.
But to suggest the small time shooters, who most definitely make up the bulk of BASCs membership, dont matter, because the public dont know much about them ?
 

Agreed in principal.
But BASC dont fight anything. And thats a fact.

BASC have made it very clear , Packham et al , are the 'enemy'
Despite the fact that Country squire arent defending a shooting case, they often ARE defending against Packhams frequent attempts to torpedo shooting live quarry in this country.
If this isnt a case that BASC would like to see robustly defended, Im not sure what is .

Their silence is deafening.

OK, this is going to be my last post on this because I think I have set out my stall fairly comprehensively, and as I said in my first post, I have work to take into account.

As I have said before - there is a limit to what BASC are able to do. In a free market Dr's are able to charge for their time if they so wish. Police forces have the power to interpret guidelines regarding firearms licencing - and - if the govement puts something though parliament, or uses secondary legislation to do something - BASC cant do anything but what I have outlined previously. Any chances to initiate legal proceedings to change laws for the better are going to be few and far between - if they exist at all, but should always be looked out for. However, in a defensive capacity, BASC have steped up to the mark being party to Wildjustices legal challenges (as have some of the other organisations to their credit). 

Re pheseants and gameshoots with big bags (and speaking as someone who does not shoot big bags) - BASC have (quite rightly in my opinion) invested quite a lot of political capital in talking about the benifit of shooting to the rural economy. Gamekeepers, hotels, etc - you know the sort of things i'm talking about. It game shooting goes, so does that line of argument - which would be a shame because its a good one. I'm sorry - but even as someone who shoots far more wood pigeons than game - its plainly obvious to me that without game shooting and its associated financial benefits, shooting as a whole would be harder to defend. And anyway, inorder be defended, it has to adapt, and we with in. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the bulk of BASCs membership dont matter - what I am suggesting is that its raining, and game shooting provides an umbrella (albeit with a few holes in). Lead shot is one of those holes.

Finally, regarding BASCs 'silence' and the 'Packham 3' - its a defamation case regarding tigers. It has no substantive relation to the remit of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. I cant stress that enough. As much as you or the next man may want to see Chris Packham loose - and no matter how much you think it would aid shooting indirectly, its still a case about defamation and tigers.

My parting shot - just think what you would want a hypothetical BASC replacement to do diffrently - and how they would protect shooting in the round, in practice. There is no way BASC or anyone else could defend lead shot the way things are going - they could have said no until they were blue in their collective faces and it wouldent have changed a thing - the same goes for every other organisation. Far better to recognise the limitations of the possition you have been dealt, and do what you can to improve it.

Edited April 6, 2022 by PeterHenry

[Scully]

2 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

The very simple answer is that any shoot putting Game into the food chain uses steel or whatever, I can't see any reason why everyone else should have it foisted on them for absolutely no good reason.  You are right though all our Shooting Organisations are a total and utter waste of money.  It is simply another deep cut in the death of Shooting Sports of all kinds.  It will be a blanket ban for all disciplines.

You’re right, to an extent. There’s no reason why live quarry NOT bound for the commercial food chain shouldn’t be exempt from a lead ban, but overlooking the fact that at the moment there is no lead ban ( and presently if there is to be such a thing, it doesn’t extend to trap shooting ) there’s also the perception of environmental damage through the scattering of the countryside with toxic metals. We can’t do that in this day and age ( yet trap shooting can ? ) and effectively claim we are conservationists. 
I don’t like it anymore than you, but if shooting is to survive we have to move with the times.  
As sad as it is, the days when you could walk through your local town or village with a couple of brace of pheasants and rabbits over one shoulder and your un sleeved shotgun over the other, are very rare if not extinct, and they wont return. 
We either strive to move on with current trends and agendas, or we’re history. 

12 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

OK, this is going to be my last post on this because I think I have set out my stall fairly comprehensively, and as I said in my first post, I have work to take into account.

As I have said before - there is a limit to what BASC are able to do. In a free market Dr's are able to charge for their time if they so wish. Police forces have the power to interpret guidelines regarding firearms licencing - and - if the govement puts something though parliament, or uses secondary legislation to do something - BASC cant do anything but what I have outlined previously. Any chances to initiate legal proceedings to change laws for the better are going to be few and far between - if they exist at all, but should always be looked out for. However, in a defensive capacity, BASC have steped up to the mark being party to Wildjustices legal challenges (as have some of the other organisations to their credit). 

Re pheseants and gameshoots with big bags (and speaking as someone who does not shoot big bags) - BASC have (quite rightly in my opinion) invested quite a lot of political capital in talking about the benifit of shooting to the rural economy. Gamekeepers, hotels, etc - you know the sort of things i'm talking about. It game shooting goes, so does that line of argument - which would be a shame because its a good one. I'm sorry - but even as someone who shoots far more wood pigeons than game - its plainly obvious to me that without game shooting and its associated financial benefits, shooting as a whole would be harder to defend. And anyway, inorder be defended, it has to adapt, and we with in. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the bulk of BASCs membership dont matter - what I am suggesting is that its raining, and game shooting provides an umbrella (albeit with a few holes in). Lead shot is one of those holes.

Finally, regarding BASCs 'silence' and the 'Packham 3' - its a defamation case regarding tigers. It has no substantive relation to the remit of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. I cant stress that enough. As much as you or the next man may want to see Chris Packham loose - and no matter how much you think it would aid shooting indirectly, its still a case about defamation and tigers.

My parting shot - just think what you would want a hypothetical BASC replacement to do diffrently - and how they would protect shooting in the round, in practice. There is no way BASC or anyone else could defend lead shot the way things are going - they could have said no until they were blue in their collective faces and it wouldent have changed a thing - the same goes for every other organisation. Far better to recognise the limitations of the possition you have been dealt, and do what you can to improve it.

Good post. 👍

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Fair Enough PH, but then why are so many members still paying in to get NOTHING out?

[Weihrauch17]

12 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

OK, this is going to be my last post on this because I think I have set out my stall fairly comprehensively, and as I said in my first post, I have work to take into account.

As I have said before - there is a limit to what BASC are able to do. In a free market Dr's are able to charge for their time if they so wish. Police forces have the power to interpret guidelines regarding firearms licencing - and - if the govement puts something though parliament, or uses secondary legislation to do something - BASC cant do anything but what I have outlined previously. Any chances to initiate legal proceedings to change laws for the better are going to be few and far between - if they exist at all, but should always be looked out for. However, in a defensive capacity, BASC have steped up to the mark being party to Wildjustices legal challenges (as have some of the other organisations to their credit). 

Re pheseants and gameshoots with big bags (and speaking as someone who does not shoot big bags) - BASC have (quite rightly in my opinion) invested quite a lot of political capital in talking about the benifit of shooting to the rural economy. Gamekeepers, hotels, etc - you know the sort of things i'm talking about. It game shooting goes, so does that line of argument - which would be a shame because its a good one. I'm sorry - but even as someone who shoots far more wood pigeons than game - its plainly obvious to me that without game shooting and its associated financial benefits, shooting as a whole would be harder to defend. And anyway, inorder be defended, it has to adapt, and we with in. I'm not for a moment suggesting that the bulk of BASCs membership dont matter - what I am suggesting is that its raining, and game shooting provides an umbrella (albeit with a few holes in). Lead shot is one of those holes.

Finally, regarding BASCs 'silence' and the 'Packham 3' - its a defamation case regarding tigers. It has no substantive relation to the remit of the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. I cant stress that enough. As much as you or the next man may want to see Chris Packham loose - and no matter how much you think it would aid shooting indirectly, its still a case about defamation and tigers.

My parting shot - just think what you would want a hypothetical BASC replacement to do diffrently - and how they would protect shooting in the round, in practice. There is no way BASC or anyone else could defend lead shot the way things are going - they could have said no until they were blue in their collective faces and it wouldent have changed a thing - the same goes for every other organisation. Far better to recognise the limitations of the possition you have been dealt, and do what you can to improve it.

You find Commercial Game Shoots easier to defend than Pest Control, really!!  Killing huge numbers of birds for profit as opposed to Vermin control to assist food production?  There is no point to any of our Shooting Organisations they are all unfit for purpose and provide absolutely no benefit to their members other than Insurance.

[Smokersmith]

We survive by putting what we shoot into the food chain. Otherwise it’s just ‘killing for fun’.

The food industry needs to deliver safe and trustworthy food, and the thought or selling it with a toxic substance in it is not going to work. I actually have seen someone from a retailer laughing at how backwards the idea of using lead is.

I know it’s not a ‘real’ issue … but it is a ‘real issue’.

Difficult to truly judge how a ‘full resistance’ approach would fare long term  v the current one.

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, Smokersmith said:

We survive by putting what we shoot into the food chain. Otherwise it’s just ‘killing for fun’.

The food industry needs to deliver safe and trustworthy food, and the thought or selling it with a toxic substance in it is not going to work. I actually have seen someone from a retailer laughing at how backwards the idea of using lead is.

I know it’s not a ‘real’ issue … but it is a ‘real issue’.

Difficult to truly judge how a ‘full resistance’ approach would fare long term  v the current one.

So commercial shoots use steel or whatever, why a blanket ban on Lead for everything.  Small shoots taking home what they shoot is not killing for fun.

[8 shot]

Can't teach COMMON SENCE........

[London Best]

8 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Small shoots taking home what they shoot is not killing for fun.

BS

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, London Best said:

BS

For small shoots it's very much a social occasion for most unlike Commercial Shoots which absolutely kill for fun, you obviously being one who partakes.  Commercial Shoots are by far the very worst examples of shooting.

[Scully]

11 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Small shoots taking home what they shoot is not killing for fun.

Eh? Of course it is! If you’re not enjoying it why are you doing it? 

[Smokersmith]

12 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

So commercial shoots use steel or whatever, why a blanket ban on Lead for everything.  Small shoots taking home what they shoot is not killing for fun.

I’ll be using my stocks of lead on small shoots for many years to come for exactly this reason🤞

[Weihrauch17]

2 minutes ago, Scully said:

Eh? Of course it is! If you’re not enjoying it why are you doing it? 

I don't get your point, it's about enjoying the whole day not killing something.  Friendships, Food, dogs working, excercise the crack etc etc.  As opposed to 8 or 9 guns standing on a Peg and killing 300 birds a day.  Up until last year our shoot over the last 23 years probably averaged 15 - 20 birds a day for 8 or 9 guns, hardly killing for fun!

Edited April 6, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Sweet11-87]

if anyone thinks any form of  live game shooting they  do recreatinally  isnt killing for fun youre lying to yourself.  even the days when you go out when you dont want  to help the farmer,more oftern than not its to keep them sweet so you can continue shooting when you do enjoy it. 

theirs apsolutly nothing wrong with enjoying shooting and hunting but if we cant all agree on that and show solidarity shooting is really in trouble as that is a fundamental for us that shooting live quarry is apsolutly acceptible aslong as its not wasted. live stock is slaughtered by the millions is it better if you dont enjoy it?. hunting is the most natural thing in the world for everything on the planet thats not bottom of the food chain.

and turning on each other not even down to which aspect of shooting we take part in but even down to the size of our shoot is  probably one of the big reasons we seem to loose at every turn.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Sweet11-87

[alic]

13 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I don't get your point, it's about enjoying the whole day not killing something.  Friendships, Food, dogs working, excercise the crack etc etc.  As opposed to 8 or 9 guns standing on a Peg and killing 300 birds a day.  Up until last year our shoot over the last 23 years probably averaged 15 - 20 birds a day for 8 or 9 guns, hardly killing for fun!

Then why not just go down the pub instead? I do this because I enjoy it from 1000 birds a day in Africa to the syndicate days, I can do all you say without without having to shoot things. I am new to shooting compared to most of you. I am only on my second renewal, but have had many a debate on this at our syndicate dinners. The shooting fraternity is backward facing IMO ( my intention is not to offend but I guess I will). We face IMO two choices be proactive address change and have a chance of being at the table or get dragged forward and take what we are given. There are no guarantees either way but I know which I prefer. Shooting will change, it is a fringe activity ( please don’t call it a sport as I believe that only hastens our demise) many don’t understand and never will . I don’t agree with how the this change has come about but if I am honest I don’t think any other approach would have worked given the perspective of many shooters.Lead is toxic that is undeniable and we can go around in circles about levels and research etc. We are not being progressive only defensive. I would like to keep shooting as long as possible and I think for that to happen we need to be looking forwards. Obsolescence and change are inevitable and are often beyond our control but damage can be managed 

Edited April 6, 2022 by alic
Just getting tin hat

[Weihrauch17]

Just now, alic said:

Then why not just go down the pub instead?

Can I hunt my dogs down the pub or walk miles, I enjoy shooting but killing things is not the reason I do it it's just part of it and we waste nothing.

Just now, Sweet11-87 said:

if anyone thinks any form of  live game shooting they  do recreatinally  isnt killing for fun youre lying to yourself.  even the days when you go out when you dont want  to help the farmer,more oftern than not its to keep them sweet so you can continue shooting when you do enjoy it. 

theirs apsolutly nothing wrong with enjoying shooting and hunting but if we cant all agree on that and show solidarity shooting is really in trouble as that is a fundamental for us that shooting live quarry is apsolutly acceptible aslong as its not wasted. live stock is slaughtered by the millions is it better if you dont enjoy it?. hunting is the most natural thing in the world for everything on the planet thats not bottom of the food chain.

 

Yes Hunting being the operative word.  Walking miles in a day working your dogs and shooting a few birds is hunting, getting driven to every peg on a 300 bird day isn't.  How people can defend large commercial shoots and pretend they are the future of shooting is simply wrong.

[Sweet11-87]

  they would say the social aspect of it the tradition, the friends, the food, the memories.  im not a game shooter it doesent appeal to me but you have to have an open mind.   the "everything i do is right everything else is wrong" is a  strange mentality i think,  its cant understand why folks do that. we get picked apart becasue we break ourselves down into bite sized chunks and  condem everyone else evcen though were by and large doing the same thing just on different platforms.   canyt go around hammering the large comercial shoot when  man for man crop protecters probably take way more pigeons that they do pheasents over the course of a year.

[Weihrauch17]

28 minutes ago, alic said:

Then why not just go down the pub instead? I do this because I enjoy it from 1000 birds a day in Africa to the syndicate days, I can do all you say without without having to shoot things. I am new to shooting compared to most of you. I am only on my second renewal, but have had many a debate on this at our syndicate dinners. The shooting fraternity is backward facing IMO ( my intention is not to offend but I guess I will). We face IMO two choices be proactive address change and have a chance of being at the table or get dragged forward and take what we are given. There are no guarantees either way but I know which I prefer. Shooting will change, it is a fringe activity ( please don’t call it a sport as I believe that only hastens our demise) many don’t understand and never will . I don’t agree with how the this change has come about but if I am honest I don’t think any other approach would have worked given the perspective of many shooters.Lead is toxic that is undeniable and we can go around in circles about levels and research etc. We are not being progressive only defensive. I would like to keep shooting as long as possible and I think for that to happen we need to be looking forwards. Obsolescence and change are inevitable and are often beyond our control but damage can be managed 

For exactly the reasons I have stated!  The likes of you who shoot on Commercial Shoots will be the end of shooting not the saviour.  Not personal BTW and my views are only my own, I may be wrong.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Weihrauch17