Price of shotguns

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Old Boggy said:

Any other non golfers been struck down by this current trend of chasing a little white ball about and thus spoiling a good walk?

Yes, I used to work for a keen golfer.  Enough said.

[retromlc]

Gun traders aren't buying guns and reluctant to px, they beat the price down claiming gun is not steel shot proofed, but sell on at a price that doesn't reflect this, and when questioned about these guns it's brushed aside.

I do know gun sales are very sluggish, I have my eye on a gun but will only purchase if it's a bargain 

[ehb102]

Market forces. The gun market is over a hundred years old. Like any market, it was going to reach saturation at some point. Once everyone who wants one has a stick that goes bang, where do you go from there? We don't all value newer/prettier in our tools. 

 

I think BASC are doing us a disservice. I went to one of their "try steel shot" days. They insisted a gun had to be steel proofed to try standard steel. That might be their choice for liability reasons but it is feeding into the idea that old guns are no good. I am glad I listened to the PigeonWatch experts, I have happily shot duck with standard steel through both my OU and SXS. 

It reminds me of the chat around computers, claims that yours will be obsolete very soon. A computer will always do the job it was designed to do. You could quite happily use a 1985 PC to write letters for example. It is only if you try to connect with new systems that the problem starts. 

[Vince Green]

Its not just about the lead issue, Shotgun sales have been slow for a long time. I suspect a lot of people are just packing up for a number of reasons Most likely just cant be bothered to jump through all the hoops at renewal time

Our club runs a clay shoot once a month, we used to get sixty or more people turning up a few years back. Now its just maybe twenty on a good day.

One of the reasons is the silly rule now that you have to be a SGC holder to shoot. That makes it almost impossible to bring a few friends or family along to have a go. So the new blood isn't coming in and the old blood is getting older and giving up..

There is zero chance of getting permission to shoot on any of the farms for miles around so what are people to do?

.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Vince Green

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

 

One of the reasons is the silly rule now that you have to be a SGC holder to shoot. 

.

A perfect example of shooters creating unnecessary rules to exclude people. I despair at times! 🤷‍♂️

[Vince Green]

1 minute ago, Scully said:

A perfect example of shooters creating unnecessary rules to exclude people. I despair at times! 🤷‍♂️

The club didn't make the rule, the police made the rule. The club needs to get an exemption certificate but for some reason that has never been done

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, Vince Green said:

The club didn't make the rule, the police made the rule. The club needs to get an exemption certificate but for some reason that has never been done

But that has been the case for years, a section 11 (6) is applied for and allows unlicensed shooters to shoot.

[Vince Green]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But that has been the case for years, a section 11 (6) is applied for and allows unlicensed shooters to shoot.

I know, but i don't run the clay shoot. I don't know why it hasn't been done. Mutterings about its not as straight forward as that.

But there are quite a few clay shoots around here that are SGC holders only 

So its not just our club

Edited July 6, 2022 by Vince Green

[JohnfromUK]

Three clubs I shoot at either regularly or occasionally do accept non SCG via a Police exemption, but with certain conditions - mainly that of a nominated SGC holder supervising each non SGC holder and prior agreement with the duty club officer on site.  I don't know if that is a Police rule - or the club's insurance rule.  I have taken work colleagues on several occasions and they have enjoyed the opportunity to 'give it a try'.  All of those three clubs are always keen to help beginners.

One (more commercial) ground I have used occasionally insists on the ground supplying (at considerable expense) an instructor to supervise any non SGC holder.  Few people do that because it is expensive, but as it is a busy ground, I suspect they don't really want the 'hassle' and price it accordingly.

[Scully]

16 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

The club didn't make the rule, the police made the rule. The club needs to get an exemption certificate but for some reason that has never been done

Ok. Fair enough. Can the police make such rules? 
Maybe it’s just a perfect example of shooters apathy then. 

[Vince Green]

53 minutes ago, Scully said:

Ok. Fair enough. Can the police make such rules? 
Maybe it’s just a perfect example of shooters apathy then. 

Can the police make such rules? Probably not but when has that ever been an impediment to them making up rules on the hoof?

[wymberley]

57 minutes ago, Scully said:

Ok. Fair enough. Can the police make such rules? 
Maybe it’s just a perfect example of shooters apathy then. 

No, they just think they can and continually attempt to do so. They can only implement what Parliament introduces.

[Scully]

But they can only make up rules if we let them. 
What we could do with is some sort of organisation that represents shooters and stands up against such things. 🤔

Saying that, it has to start with us. I know it’s not easy as a solitary individual making a stand against an official body we rely on to administer what we want, which is yet another reason they shouldn’t be doing it. 
What we have to remember is that they’re not doing us a favour by processing an application or renewal, they’re providing a service, and it’s not up to them to administer that service as they see fit, but rather as it was intended. It doesn’t help of course that it is open to interpretation and much of it is just guidance, but at least that allows discretion for not returning firearms to undesirables, but that doesn’t seem to be a complete success either. 
I think we’ve gone beyond the time when the licensing system was removed from the police, but that’s probably for another thread. 
 

[HantsRob]

From an application form:

Quote

n order to assist your application, the law in relation to conducting a clay pigeon shooting event is quoted below and some guidance on the operation of the event is attached. Section 11(6) of the Firearms Act 1968 states: "A person may, without holding a shotgun certificate, use a shotgun at a time and place approved for shooting at artificial targets by the Chief Officer of police for the area in which that place is situated." The organiser of any clay pigeon shoot at which persons who do not hold a shotgun certificate wish to shoot must apply to the Chief Officer for the area in which the shoot is to take place for an exemption under section 11(6) of the 1968 Firearms Act. This allows non-certificate holders to possess shot guns at a time and place approved by the Chief Officer for shooting at artificial targets which normally, though not exclusively, includes clay targets. Any person, under 15 years of age, using a shotgun must be supervised by an adult (over 21yrs). (Firearms Act 1968, Section 22(3)). Prohibited persons as defined by Section 21 of the Firearms Act 1968 (If known) must not be permitted to be in possession of guns or ammunition. The owners of any shotguns used on the site are reminded that the security of those guns remains solely their responsibility

 

I'd suggest the stipulations are mostly governed by the grounds, as some rules would stop the "1 man with semi bringing 6 friends" that we have all seen. That said, if a ground has been notoriously been having complaints and issues that upon investigation have been due to non licence holders, it may be midground of rather than deny the 11(6), the condition is that you can only have SGC holders shoot here. It is usually a warning that either the site is awful, or that they only want SGC holders.

 

10 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

One (more commercial) ground I have used occasionally insists on the ground supplying (at considerable expense) an instructor to supervise any non SGC holder.  Few people do that because it is expensive, but as it is a busy ground, I suspect they don't really want the 'hassle' and price it accordingly.

There is one in Hampshire also just like that, and I suspect it's a case of "if you're willing to pay" like you say, but it is a very classy joint so they want to keep it 'pure'. 

Crazy really. It would make for a terrific day out with friends.

[Vince Green]

But if you are a legit person running a legit clay club. Honest as the day is long, never had a problem with the police and they say to you that anyone who shoots without a SGC is in unlawful possession and they are going to come down and nick them and nick you.

what are you going to do?

it seems to revolve around the fact that only the land OWNER has the right to sanction non licenced shooters on his land. I don't know about the ins and outs of this legislation, perhaps somebody more knowledgable could comment?? 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Vince Green

[TIGHTCHOKE]

10 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Crazy really. It would make for a terrific day out with friends.

Who would all have to have SGC's

[Scully]

If all the above is actually legislation, then there are a lot of grounds out there in breach of it. 🤷‍♂️

[Gas seal]

Hi the law for a person without a licence shooting on private land is better and based upon common sense. I would have thought shooting grounds would encourage people take up shooting. 

[wymberley]

As ever on here there's a need to define 'land owner' and the cost of supervising non SGC shooters is a high as the club/shoot owner wishes to make it.

[Bobba]

39 minutes ago, Scully said:

If all the above is actually legislation, then there are a lot of grounds out there in breach of it. 🤷‍♂️

I’m not an over keen clay shooter but join four friends every other Sunday. For variation we opt for one of five shooting grounds. Two are clubs where we are guest shooters, three are commercial ground. Over the years I have never been asked to produce my SGC. So, I would suspect that they all have the appropriate exemptions, and any ground or club which insists on SGC’s either do not have exemption or, if they do, are making it up as they go along.

[Gas seal]

Hi Dave yes the 8gauge industrial cases some from the cement works in the USA . Wildflowers didn’t give up they made their own cartridges. If shooters can’t find the cartridges they want for the guns they could make cartridges until commercial cartridges are available. Clay and Game reloading supplies will make and test cartridges to the customers  requirements and supply the components. This must be better than not using a gun. Maybe the gun will go up in price like the 8gauge guns did.

[Scully]

27 minutes ago, Gas seal said:

Hi Dave yes the 8gauge industrial cases some from the cement works in the USA . Wildflowers didn’t give up they made their own cartridges. If shooters can’t find the cartridges they want for the guns they could make cartridges until commercial cartridges are available. Clay and Game reloading supplies will make and test cartridges to the customers  requirements and supply the components. This must be better than not using a gun. Maybe the gun will go up in price like the 8gauge guns did.

There you go, choices. Eight bore in steel. Just the thing for those extreme driven days. 👍

[button]

On 06/07/2022 at 08:35, retromlc said:

Gun traders aren't buying guns and reluctant to px, they beat the price down claiming gun is not steel shot proofed, but sell on at a price that doesn't reflect this, and when questioned about these guns it's brushed aside.

I do know gun sales are very sluggish, I have my eye on a gun but will only purchase if it's a bargain 

This^^^^^

Some dealers have gotten greedy, spoke to one this morning about a 20 bore that they had for £1100, my eyes £850 tops and then proceeded to tell me how it should be £1800, utter rubbish, greed will be there downfall

 

 

[Scully]

58 minutes ago, button said:

This^^^^^

Some dealers have gotten greedy, spoke to one this morning about a 20 bore that they had for £1100, my eyes £850 tops and then proceeded to tell me how it should be £1800, utter rubbish, greed will be there downfall

 

 

I know of one dealer in particular who has lost the potential sales to five customers, and none of them spend small; two of them are ‘keepers.
It’s a shame really as it was one of my favourite gunshops. 
 

[button]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

I know of one dealer in particular who has lost the potential sales to five customers, and none of them spend small; two of them are ‘keepers.
It’s a shame really as it was one of my favourite gunshops. 
 

Well the old sayings something is only worth what some is prepared to pay and cash and king are two business rules that never change

The ones that flex to the market are the ones that will do well

I bought a gun from a dealer many years ago which he was happy to sell, when I to trade it in wouldn't touch it, spent thousands since and not a penny with him and never will, long memory