Energy Bills

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

The Gov't (in the broad sense) is not well joined up here.  I have a very suitable roof (in principle).  Faces just a touch west of due south (ideal), fairly low pitch (ideal), very strong load bearing ability (good), not visually prominent from anywhere other than next door (good).

But I'm not allowed as I'm a listed building, and it is part shaded by a very large tree that I'm not allowed to remove.  This is in fact nonsense, because the roof in question is 1960s put on before the building was listed, and of dark concrete tiles (hence the high load bearing ability).  The tree is a common sycamore that is causing problems with leaves and seeds - but despite being instructed (by English Nature/Natural England) to remove sycamores elsewhere on my property as they are "non-native and invasive" - I'm not allowed to touch the one near the house because it is "within the curtilage of a listed building" who have a 'higher say' than English Nature/Natural England.

I did explore solar when I did a major property upgrade about 5 years ago - but was told by the local authority (listed buildings Dept) - 'not on your Nelly'.  My next door neighbour (who isn't listed) got his accepted, but he had to deal with a different Dept (planning) !

I totally get what your saying, Planning and many other government dpts, are a law to themselves. 

But my point remains, if it was rolled out properly, those who were suitable for solar would possibly be making money and those who weren't would likely be paying a fraction of what they do now. Plus it would be carbon free. 

The government seems to lack ambition, outside of the individual climbing the tree of power of course. 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I totally get what your saying, Planning and many other government dpts, are a law to themselves. 

But my point remains, if it was rolled out properly, those who were suitable for solar would possibly be making money and those who weren't would likely be paying a fraction of what they do now. Plus it would be carbon free. 

The government seems to lack ambition, outside of the individual climbing the tree of power of course. 

Yes, I think in many ways it is a good idea - but I'm not sure that the real 'problem' area isn't the 'base load' - in other words having enough on a cold dark still long winter night .............. and solar needs lots of (expensive and difficult) batteries to help much there.

The other 'problem' is that most of us use gas (or oil) for heating.  My heating boiler can supply (or use, not sure which, but it only makes a small difference) 42 KW of energy.  That is the equivalent of 200A of electricity - whereas my supply is rated (as are many rural areas) at a maximum of 80A - and that has to include cooking, lighting and all other electrical demands, so really - I would need even being very conservative and having a 'smart' management system, about double the supply that is available.  And that is before people start adding electric cars ......

There is some small gain to be made by insulation, but in my upgrade 5 years ago I invested heavily in improved insulation and heating efficiency - and there isn't much more that can be done within the building constraints. 

[12gauge82]

52 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Yes, I think in many ways it is a good idea - but I'm not sure that the real 'problem' area isn't the 'base load' - in other words having enough on a cold dark still long winter night .............. and solar needs lots of (expensive and difficult) batteries to help much there.

The other 'problem' is that most of us use gas (or oil) for heating.  My heating boiler can supply (or use, not sure which, but it only makes a small difference) 42 KW of energy.  That is the equivalent of 200A of electricity - whereas my supply is rated (as are many rural areas) at a maximum of 80A - and that has to include cooking, lighting and all other electrical demands, so really - I would need even being very conservative and having a 'smart' management system, about double the supply that is available.  And that is before people start adding electric cars ......

There is some small gain to be made by insulation, but in my upgrade 5 years ago I invested heavily in improved insulation and heating efficiency - and there isn't much more that can be done within the building constraints. 

Absolutely, get what your saying and storage is without doubt the Holy Grail, but storage solutions would be found if they were invested in. 

To your other point, some property would be unsuitable for solar and what would happen under my suggestion is those who needed more energy than they could produce themselves would in effect be buying it from their neighbours via the government, but because it would be an at cost system, it would be vastly cheaper.

It would also solve the expanding energy demand issues, because as more property was built, more solar would be on the roofs. 

I can't see any real downsides other than government having to pull their finger out and effectively plan and manage something and big businesses loosing their profits. 

[udderlyoffroad]

16 hours ago, oowee said:

On the contrary we should use this as an opportunity to rethink energy policy. Insulation, building standards, supply control

The fundamental problem is that you will never upgrade existing UK housing stock to levels of insulation that modern buildings can boast.  Forget heat pumps in the average Victorian semi.

When we do build new housing, although modern building regs are fairly tight with standards of insulation, they are subsequently built to the absolute lowest price using dated technology, by large housebuilding firms, who employ the worst possible labour.  This means you end up with shoeboxes that although stay warm in the winter with very little heat input, in the summer are hot as all hell.

Whereas, when new builds happen in European countries, it tends to be a 'once in a lifetime' purchase for the owners, and thus far more effort is put into a quality, long lasting systems of the buy-once-cry-once variety.  Which is another reason heat pumps are so expensive. 

Not to mention the fact that the geniuses in government have just realised that a heat pump is (grossly oversimplified) an airconditioning pump running in reverse.  Oh, we can't have that!  So they're rushing to amend the building regs to ensure you can't actually have an air con heat pump in a domestic setting.  This will mean producers having to make heat pumps unique to the UK market, thus ensuring even more costs passed onto the UK consumer.  What A-grade fu**wittery.

An still, no requirements for PV installations on new builds.  You couldn't make it up.

 

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I totally get what your saying, Planning and many other government dpts, are a law to themselves. 

But my point remains, if it was rolled out properly, those who were suitable for solar would possibly be making money and those who weren't would likely be paying a fraction of what they do now. Plus it would be carbon free. 

The government seems to lack ambition, outside of the individual climbing the tree of power of course. 

Solar pv on roofs does almost nothing. Unless you can use the power or store it for later (boiler or ev) then the power is not used. It goes to the sub station which cannot use it and it is burnt off as waste heat. The feed in tariff scheme was a trial to test roll out and use of solar pv its now been withdrawn for new applicants. Solar heat is less efficient but in many ways more useable if set up as a national scheme with support it could work but requires a bit more work than simply installing a heat capture unit. 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, oowee said:

Solar pv on roofs does almost nothing. Unless you can use the power or store it for later (boiler or ev) then the power is not used. It goes to the sub station which cannot use it and it is burnt off as waste heat. The feed in tariff scheme was a trial to test roll out and use of solar pv its now been withdrawn for new applicants. Solar heat is less efficient but in many ways more useable if set up as a national scheme with support it could work but requires a bit more work than simply installing a heat capture unit. 

bruno22rf

• Members
• •  8.3k
• From:Bucks

Posted 1 hour ago

On a lighter note....Domestic Solar Panel owners seem to be having a record year, first quarter our FIT readings were so high that the company that pays our FIT payments refused to believe our meter readings and we had to submit photographic evidence, second quarter has paid out £360 which, pretty much, covers our current bill. Our Neighbour, who bought his system just before the FIT Tarrif was dropped, cleared £800 last quarter......

image.webp

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

bruno22rf

•  
• Members
• •  8.3k
• From:Bucks

 

Posted 1 hour ago

On a lighter note....Domestic Solar Panel owners seem to be having a record year, first quarter our FIT readings were so high that the company that pays our FIT payments refused to believe our meter readings and we had to submit photographic evidence, second quarter has paid out £360 which, pretty much, covers our current bill. Our Neighbour, who bought his system just before the FIT Tarrif was dropped, cleared £800 last quarter......

image.webp 1.99 kB · 0 downloads

I so wish that I had got in on it. 

[discobob]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Here's an idea. 

The government gives interest free loans to private individuals who's roofs are in good condition and face the right way (somewhere between East, South and west maybe). 

The individuals pay off the loan via the energy they generate and once paid in full, become the owners of the panels and other infrastructure attached to their property. 

The government invests in public owned energy storage technologies and facilities for when the sun isn't shining and overnight ect. 

Eventually the UK would have virtually 100% a green energy grid, owned by the public and run without profit. 

Someone tell me what the down side of that is if it were rolled out efficiently and effectively? Other than big business not getting to fleece the public of course! 

Trouble is the sun doesn't shine for 365 days a year - massive excess in the summer though and there isn't any storage that I know off capable of storing that much energy through into the winter with the exception of Sand Batteries possibly - apparently there are some DIY'ers who have done this in their back yards in the USA 

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I so wish that I had got in on it. 

Buuuuut who is paying that Feed In Tariff - everyone else is...... Just like who is paying the subsidy for heat pumps etc etc.

in part that is what the green levy is doing that is on everyones bills 😞

 

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, discobob said:

Trouble is the sun doesn't shine for 365 days a year - massive excess in the summer though and there isn't any storage that I know off capable of storing that much energy through into the winter with the exception of Sand Batteries possibly - apparently there are some DIY'ers who have done this in their back yards in the USA 

Buuuuut who is paying that Feed In Tariff - everyone else is...... Just like who is paying the subsidy for heat pumps etc etc.

in part that is what the green levy is doing that is on everyones bills 😞

 

Nothing wrong with the levy just sometimes the application. Some of this stuff is also about testing the products and reducing the costs as it becomes more familiar so not all wasted.

[udderlyoffroad]

36 minutes ago, oowee said:

Solar pv on roofs does almost nothing.

 

21 minutes ago, discobob said:

Trouble is the sun doesn't shine for 365 days a year

Dated thinking on both counts - PV with some storage medium, along with smart management, could make a massive difference to the consumer, and help with peak demand.

We're already seeing the better off being able to install systems that talk to each other, so if there's an excess of solar energy, the water tank gets heated, then the EV battery charged, then the rest is exported to the grid.  This can be varied of course depending on time of year and price of electricity, as well as the individual's priorities.

But of course these systems are expensive and are firmly in enthusiast/early adopter camp territory.  The price is coming down, but certainly not quickly enough to help with the current winter and inevitable elderly deaths from hypothermia.

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

Dated thinking on both counts - PV with some storage medium, along with smart management, could make a massive difference to the consumer, and help with peak demand.

We're already seeing the better off being able to install systems that talk to each other, so if there's an excess of solar energy, the water tank gets heated, then the EV battery charged, then the rest is exported to the grid.  This can be varied of course depending on time of year and price of electricity, as well as the individual's priorities.

But of course these systems are expensive and are firmly in enthusiast/early adopter camp territory.  The price is coming down, but certainly not quickly enough to help with the current winter and inevitable elderly deaths from hypothermia.

I did mention storage. Whilst the price of this is coming down power to the grid is still not used. There is also a big difference between early adopter enthusiast use and mass roll out. There are many more cost effective ways to save energy that could be pursued. 

[discobob]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

The price is coming down,

not since the government reduced the VAT - Quotes I have been looking at have gone up £2k

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

Solar pv on roofs does almost nothing. Unless you can use the power or store it for later (boiler or ev) then the power is not used. It goes to the sub station which cannot use it and it is burnt off as waste heat. The feed in tariff scheme was a trial to test roll out and use of solar pv its now been withdrawn for new applicants. Solar heat is less efficient but in many ways more useable if set up as a national scheme with support it could work but requires a bit more work than simply installing a heat capture unit. 

I'm sorry oowee but your wrong, or have at least taken my suggestions out of context. Solar pv that is properly set up, absolutely works. 

[oowee]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm sorry oowee but your wrong, or have at least taken my suggestions out of context. Solar pv that is properly set up, absolutely works. 

Only if the householder can use it. The rest is wasted it cannot be fed to the grid. The FIT is a notional payment for power foregone. 

[12gauge82]

3 hours ago, discobob said:

Trouble is the sun doesn't shine for 365 days a year - massive excess in the summer though and there isn't any storage that I know off capable of storing that much energy through into the winter with the exception of Sand Batteries possibly - apparently there are some DIY'ers who have done this in their back yards in the USA 

Buuuuut who is paying that Feed In Tariff - everyone else is...... Just like who is paying the subsidy for heat pumps etc etc.

in part that is what the green levy is doing that is on everyones bills 😞

 

Solar pv is actually more efficient on cold bright winter days than hot summer ones, obviously you'll get more energy throughout summer, but you won't get so little through winter that it's not a worthy investment. 

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Only if the householder can use it. The rest is wasted it cannot be fed to the grid. The FIT is a notional payment for power foregone. 

Anyone with a hot water storage tank and an immersion heater can store excess solar energy as hot water heat for next to nothing, I know loads of people with solar since the fit payment stopped and they're all doing very well out of it. If your interested in the set up I have I can pm you? 

[discobob]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Solar pv is actually more efficient on cold bright winter days than hot summer ones, obviously you'll get more energy throughout summer, but you won't get so little through winter that it's not a worthy investment. 

I wasn't saying that - but I know just the other week in the heatwave where we live it was very overcast despite the heat. Quite a few people on the Solar Forums where only generating a notional amount in areas affected.

By the way I am looking at getting Solar and Batteries

[oowee]

20 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Solar pv is actually more efficient on cold bright winter days than hot summer ones, obviously you'll get more energy throughout summer, but you won't get so little through winter that it's not a worthy investment. 

Anyone with a hot water storage tank and an immersion heater can store excess solar energy as hot water heat for next to nothing, I know loads of people with solar since the fit payment stopped and they're all doing very well out of it. If your interested in the set up I have I can pm you? 

Yes with storage, battery, heat, or ev all is good. I am in the process of putting an installation in place for my boat to be self sufficient. 

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, discobob said:

I wasn't saying that - but I know just the other week in the heatwave where we live it was very overcast despite the heat. Quite a few people on the Solar Forums where only generating a notional amount in areas affected.

By the way I am looking at getting Solar and Batteries

My set up although not the norm, is generating so much energy, I simply can't use it. My bills, that's gas and electricity are virtually just the standing charge. Solar pv is one of the systems that without doubt works. 

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yes with storage, battery, heat, or ev all is good. I am in the process of putting an installation in place for my boat to be self sufficient. 

I have several friends who have no storage or fit, that are still doing well and are very glad they have it. 

[discobob]

Just now, 12gauge82 said:

My set up although not the norm, is generating so much energy, I simply can't use it. My bills, that's gas and electricity are virtually just the standing charge. Solar pv is one of the systems that without doubt works. 

I have a long extension lead - where do you live 😂

I am currently looking at just getting batteries to hopefully get onto Octopus Go or the likes - 10kw should see us for most of our needs to charge off peak -  buying the batteries including VAT is cheaper than what the installers are charging alongside solar without VAT.

Of course - it is plus fitting as well

[12gauge82]

13 minutes ago, discobob said:

I have a long extension lead - where do you live 😂

I am currently looking at just getting batteries to hopefully get onto Octopus Go or the likes - 10kw should see us for most of our needs to charge off peak -  buying the batteries including VAT is cheaper than what the installers are charging alongside solar without VAT.

Of course - it is plus fitting as well

😂

I've got a water storage tank that holds 1000 litres, this runs my underfloor heating and hot water, my log burner is also connected to it if I get free logs. I also have battery storage, when the sun shines, any energy not being used by the house, gets stored in my super insulated tank for use later, the tank also has very efficient stratification, so all the hot water rises to the top for immediate use, I.e rather than having 1000L @ 40°c ill have say 300L @80°c and 700L at 50°c.

[Rewulf]

Alleged temperature change due to 'global warming'

 

Coincidence ? 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, EDF have just informed me of the impending £400 payments, but not surprised me with the October energy price hike 🤔, Lizz Truss says we've got to put up with high energy prices or we face a dark and cold winter, I doubt many MPs and Lords and Ladies homes will go cold and dark

[Cosmicblue]

Yikes - £400!  What was it before the new number arrived?  

[Stonepark]

On 05/09/2022 at 17:46, Rewulf said:

Alleged temperature change due to 'global warming'

 

Coincidence ? 

Stick observed black line from first graph onto end of single blank line of second graph and what do you get?

A whole lot of nothing.

 

The climate has always been and always will be driven by the sun and the processes that flow from it.

 

The models promoting human made climate change are nothing but the productions and fantasies of the current crop of "snake oil salesmen".

 

 

[oldypigeonpopper]

28 minutes ago, Cosmicblue said:

Yikes - £400!  What was it before the new number arrived?  

£400 is the government payments, , waiting for EDF to hit me with their price rise🙄 I'm looking a cancelling DD and pay for each months use, EDF have millions of £s of customers money for over estimated use 🤔