Why are we so soft on these people?

[Rob85]

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-63569908

A 23 year old student chucks eggs at the king and shouts some rubbish about this country being built on the blood of slaves. He gets arrested and almost immediately bailed?

I would like to hope he's going to get found guilty and sentenced for a public order offence and kicked out of his university. But no sadly I think he will get told by the judge that he was a bold boy and not to do it again or else.

 

 

[ditchman]

19 minutes ago, Rob85 said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-63569908

A 23 year old student chucks eggs at the king and shouts some rubbish about this country being built on the blood of slaves. He gets arrested and almost immediately bailed?

I would like to hope he's going to get found guilty and sentenced for a public order offence and kicked out of his university. But no sadly I think he will get told by the judge that he was a bold boy and not to do it again or else.

 

 

ECHR...................people have rights to do excactly what they want....except normal people like you and me....we are the easy touch and get slammed up for coughing in the wrong key

[JohnfromUK]

Your question is, why are we so soft on these people?

In my opinion, the answer is that we have allowed ourselves to become used to the idea that 'protest' is healthy. 

It is right that people should be able to demonstrate, show their opinions and have a right of 'free speech'.  However - these should be peaceful and not prevent others going normally and safely about their daily business.  (Clearly things like strikes - which are subject to different rules do and are allowed to cause disruption.)   Where the action oversteps the mark of reasonableness, then action may be taken.

There are really 3 stages;

1. The Police must intervene and make an arrest - which means that they must see a reasonable chance of a successful prosecution for an offence, so the tests will be (a) is it an offence in law, and (b) can they build a case for the CPS to agree to take forward.  Without these, they are on to a 'non starter'.
2. Assuming that an arrest is made, and a charge placed that the CPS take to court, the accused can usually elect to have a Crown court (i.e. trial by jury) trial, it is up to the court to deliver a 'guilty/not guilty' verdict.  If the defendants can show they have no resources to fund a defence, the state can be 'compelled' to pay (legal aid) or in many cases the defendant may be provided with a lawyer/barrister paid for by a sympathetic organisation funded by donors etc.  Once at court, the jury make the decision on guilty/not guilty.  There have been cases recently where juries have 'failed to return a guilty verdict' even when directed by the Judge, and they have a right to do that - so a defendant who has a sympathetic jury may be acquitted even though they committed the offence.  Once acquitted - they cannot be re-tried for the same offence unless there is a significant change in evidence or similar.  This action by juries has happened several times recently in trials for criminal damage such as paint daubing.
3. In the event that the jury does return a guilty verdict, there are guidelines that the judge has to follow in passing sentence.  Arguably, for an offence such as criminal damage or public order which can vary from very minor trivial issues to very costly and disruptive with huge remedial costs, the guidelines are not allowing the judges enough scope to reflect the more serious offences, so a light sentence which can lead to a repeat offence soon may be the only thing available.

It is also worth bearing in mind that for 'activists and fanatics' they are likely to re-offend frequently and as soon as they are released, but the judge may not be able to give a longer sentence on that reason.  Further, it is relatively easy for activists to get fines paid by their supporters, so a fine isn't really a deterrent.  Finally, as has been seen, these people take no notice of court injunctions preventing people from attending places or carrying out actions as they know that the sentences will be light.

Perhaps we need a new offence along the lines of aggravated obstruction, or aggravated damage?

Edited November 10, 2022 by JohnfromUK

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Rob85 said:

student chucks eggs at the king and shouts some rubbish about this country being built on the blood of slaves. He gets arrested and almost immediately bailed?

I doubt he'll get charged with anything, it was great to see that Charles just ignored it, the crowd drowning the nutter out.

Sadly they walk among us. 

[old man]

10 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I doubt he'll get charged with anything, it was great to see that Charles just ignored it, the crowd drowning the nutter out.

Sadly they walk among us. 

Yep, it was government policy to allow them to do so thinking it was good for all?

[Walker570]

My wife made enquiries with a local magistrate about the posibility of joining as a magistrate, he said basically don't do it because you will be so frustrated as we cannot now do things we would like to do.  The powers that be control all our decisions.  She did not join but would have made a superb job of it.

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Walker570 said:

he said basically don't do it because you will be so frustrated as we cannot now do things we would like to do

That reminds me of an old and sadly long departed now friend who was a magistrate and very keen sporting man.  At his funeral, a colleague giving a eulogy joked that if the departed had had his way, most speeding offenders would have been let off, but any poachers would have been deported to Australia!

[old man]

7 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

My wife made enquiries with a local magistrate about the posibility of joining as a magistrate, he said basically don't do it because you will be so frustrated as we cannot now do things we would like to do.  The powers that be control all our decisions.  She did not join but would have made a superb job of it.

Having met your chief scout I would have to say she has far too much nous to play on that trail.

[Walker570]

He wasn't at Henley in Arden was he?  I was a motor cyclist patrol officer back in the 60s and it was well known that should you come up infront of the magistrates there then you could expect a fine double that given by Solihull or Coleshill Magistrates.  The court house there was above the police station a lovely old brick building alongside the A34.

1 minute ago, old man said:

Having met your chief scout I would have to say she has far too much nous to play on that trail.

She was also a Police Officer and had her own patch at Shirley.  She ruled with a rod and the local yobs knew it.  She knew every inch and all the bad uns but also knew all the old widows and such and would always knock the door to see they were OK and have a word .... often where useful info was picked up.  Proper policing.

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

He wasn't at Henley in Arden was he?

No, not Henley in Arden.  Not sure which actual courts he sat in, but would have been in Glos.

 

7 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

knock the door to see they were OK and have a word .... often where useful info was picked up.  Proper policing.

Very much so - and our local bobby when I was a kid used to do just that.  I doubt anyone anywhere can have drunk more cups of tea!  But he was a well respected (and liked by all but the dodgy ones) man.

[JohnfromUK]

It now emerges that the person who threw the eggs (called Patrick Thelwell) at the King has form in a variety of 'activist' demonstrations, rent strikes, anti fascist demos, and is (as might have been guessed) involved in "left wing politics".  What a surprise!  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11412977/Activist-accused-throwing-eggs-Charles-Camilla-banned-carrying-eggs-public.html

[Mice!]

28 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It now emerges that the person who threw the eggs (called Patrick Thelwell) at the King has form in a variety of 'activist' demonstrations, rent strikes, anti fascist demos, and is (as might have been guessed) involved in "left wing politics".  What a surprise!  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11412977/Activist-accused-throwing-eggs-Charles-Camilla-banned-carrying-eggs-public.html

It's hardly a surprise is it.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, Mice! said:

It's hardly a surprise is it.

Quite.

[Keith RW]

Protest by all means within our free country, but in a correct and orderly manner, as soon as any object is used as a missile then boundaries are overstepped, some might say that they were only eggs thrown but what if one hit home and landed on target and someone lost an eye ? what would be the general consensus of opinion as to what the punishment should be in a case such as that.

This young idiot needs a quick lesson and awakening as to the consequences of his actions, a brief spell in detention along with a criminal record and also a thought as to how his future job prospects might now look ...... that's if he isn't already a poor little rich kid without any of the above to be concerned about and plans to go through life on the chosen path of professional activist without having to live the normal day to day lives like the majority of us law abiding citizens.... total and utter ####

[old man]

2 hours ago, Walker570 said:

He wasn't at Henley in Arden was he?  I was a motor cyclist patrol officer back in the 60s and it was well known that should you come up infront of the magistrates there then you could expect a fine double that given by Solihull or Coleshill Magistrates.  The court house there was above the police station a lovely old brick building alongside the A34.

She was also a Police Officer and had her own patch at Shirley.  She ruled with a rod and the local yobs knew it.  She knew every inch and all the bad uns but also knew all the old widows and such and would always knock the door to see they were OK and have a word .... often where useful info was picked up.  Proper policing.

👍😀

[old man]

26 minutes ago, Keith RW said:

Protest by all means within our free country, but in a correct and orderly manner, as soon as any object is used as a missile then boundaries are overstepped, some might say that they were only eggs thrown but what if one hit home and landed on target and someone lost an eye ? what would be the general consensus of opinion as to what the punishment should be in a case such as that.

This young idiot needs a quick lesson and awakening as to the consequences of his actions, a brief spell in detention along with a criminal record and also a thought as to how his future job prospects might now look ...... that's if he isn't already a poor little rich kid without any of the above to be concerned about and plans to go through life on the chosen path of professional activist without having to live the normal day to day lives like the majority of us law abiding citizens.... total and utter ####

The trouble is something he well understands, the more black marks he collects the less he will be gainfully employed? Win, win for him?

[JohnfromUK]

21 minutes ago, old man said:

the more black marks he collects the less he will be gainfully employed? Win, win for him?

Get enough black marks and you can live a life on benefits, protesting where and when you wish, and the state (which you profess to oppose) pays your rent and a comfortable subsistence.

[old man]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Get enough black marks and you can live a life on benefits, protesting where and when you wish, and the state (which you profess to oppose) pays your rent and a comfortable subsistence.

Absolutely.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 hours ago, Walker570 said:

My wife made enquiries with a local magistrate about the posibility of joining as a magistrate, he said basically don't do it because you will be so frustrated as we cannot now do things we would like to do.  The powers that be control all our decisions.  She did not join but would have made a superb job of it.

Yes I bet she would have.   

[P08]

It's a question of law, a public order offence is a slap on the hand, even when it's the King and Queen, It stinks but that's the cost of freedom, same goes for those anti oil gang, It's only when you do it time after time, could there be a bit of jail time.

[ratchers]

17 hours ago, Walker570 said:

My wife made enquiries with a local magistrate about the posibility of joining as a magistrate, he said basically don't do it because you will be so frustrated as we cannot now do things we would like to do.  The powers that be control all our decisions.  She did not join but would have made a superb job of it.

Three friends of mine are JP's who asked me to become one, the above is the exact reason I refused.

[Houseplant]

 

 

[Walker570]

Can you imagine the reaction if a bunch of gun owners did the same regarding the imposition of lead shot.

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

Can you imagine the reaction if a bunch of gun owners did the same regarding the imposition of lead shot.

I'd dare say, they wouldn't be gun owners any longer, and I'd go as far to say we'd probably see some truncheon action from the police.

Some protest are acceptable, even if they are illegal and cause massive disruption.

Other protests are just not acceptable, no matter how peaceful they start out as.

That's how it is

Edited November 11, 2022 by Newbie to this

[JohnfromUK]

5 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Some protest are acceptable

Indeed.  Many of us went some years ago on the London march(es) against Blair's hunting ban.  I would think the majority there were gun owners.  It was a peaceful protest and the police were chatting and joking with the marchers - all very good humoured.  That is how protests/demonstrations should be.  I would very much doubt there was a single incident for the police to attend to.