after a total lead ban if it happens

[Centrepin]

14 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I'll throw this down as I have done before. The lead shot ban for fishing weights banned lead shot of under one ounce or over English #8 size. Yet other than my own reference to it in my submission to DEFRA have I see any of the organisations suggest that as English #8 isn't a risk to waterfowl that, too, as it was allowed to remain for use as fishing weights so should it remain too for shotgun use. Which would solve the issue for clay shooting.

I have actually spoken to Conor O'Gorman via telephone about this.

If you have any links, please send them to Conor or myself

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

I have actually spoken to Conor O'Gorman via telephone about this.

If you have any links, please send them to Conor or myself

I wrote this to my MP back in November and he did promise to forward it on:

Quote

 

Thank you for your invitation back in August 2022 to send you my broader reflections on this proposed lead shot ban. I am most grateful for that kind offer and can now attach a PDF of my submission. 

 

I hope that it is not too wordy and that, perhaps, you might bring some of its points to the attention of the non-nonsense Ms Coffey! Especially regarding the use of small #8 and #9 shot for clay pigeon and vermin shooting that BY THE GOVERNMENTS OWN LAW ENACTED SOME DECADES BACK it sees no hazard to waterfowl or birds from!

 

My DEFRA input included as below:

Nowhere has a study been done on the OTHER and yet easily ascertained environmental impact of the proposal that lead shot can be replaced by steel shot.

Nowhere even though it could easily be done has anyone calculated the energy and C02 released to make iron ore into steel shot compared with the energy and C02 released to make lead ore into lead shot. Nowhere has note been made that scrap lead can easily and cheaply be made into lead shot - lead melts ad 600 degrees - compared to making scrap iron into lead shot.

Additionally all current steel shot is made in the Chinese Peoples' Republic so the carbon footprint of the energy used to transport it to the UK must also be taken account of. Finally steel shot must be fired using plastic wads which...regardless of them being so called bio-degradable...are still made from plastic. Lead shot can be loaded with wads made from either plastic or fibre. Steel shot can only be loaded with wads made from plastic.

For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead .22LR aka .22 Rimfire bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead rimfire ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited.

Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit.

This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting.

Steel shot cartridges manufactured in the USA are marked on the box "Not For Use in Damascus Barrel Guns". This is for the reason that such may damage the gun. And may additionally prove dangerous to the user and/or bystanders.

The alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative.

If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of damascus barrel guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive.

The Proof Houses in the United Kingdom furthermore make a blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of post-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by post-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears).

They do NOT make the blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of pre-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by pre-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears).

Therefore in pre-1954 guns alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of pre-1954 guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive.

There are also NO NON-LEAD CARTRIDGES for the rimfire vermin shotgun calibres of .22 Rimfire SHOT, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire SHOT nor for the centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" cartridge. Or for ANY pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre.

A ban on non-lead shot would therefore be a de facto ban on the use of .22 Rimfire, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire and centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" shotguns. Or for ANY shotguns using pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre.

By virtue of the much fewer numbers of cartridges in 16 Bore, 28 Bore and .410" Gauge that are loaded the price of such loaded with steel shot would render them almost "bespoke" loaded and so again so expensive as to be a de facto ban. Also ban on non lead shot would again render a de facto ban on the use of 12 Bore shotguns for shooting deer on enclosed land by the landowner under the "farmers' exemption" under the Deer Act.

The legislation that banned fishing weights on basis of the danger or lead shot to waterfowl says this under UK GOV FRESHWATER FISHING RULES "You can only use lead weights if they're 0.06 grams or less or more than 28.35 grams.

This means lead shot weight from size 14 to size 8 and lead weights over one ounce" has been accepted as posing no danger to waterfowl or other birds by ingestion.

Therefore by the logic of that law the continued use of lead shot size 8 and size 9 shot commonly used in clay pigeon shooting and for some live quarry (and some vermin...rats..squirrels) should be continued to be allowed as should the use of lead projectiles of over one ounce in 12 Bore shotguns under the Deer Act under the "farmers' exemption".

Edited December 17, 2022 by enfieldspares

[Centrepin]

2 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

I wrote this to my MP back in November and he did promise to forward it on:

My DEFRA input included as below:

Nowhere has a study been done on the OTHER and yet easily ascertained environmental impact of the proposal that lead shot can be replaced by steel shot.

Nowhere even though it could easily be done has anyone calculated the energy and C02 released to make iron ore into steel shot compared with the energy and C02 released to make lead ore into lead shot. Nowhere has note been made that scrap lead can easily and cheaply be made into lead shot - lead melts ad 600 degrees - compared to making scrap iron into lead shot.

Additionally all current steel shot is made in the Chinese Peoples' Republic so the carbon footprint of the energy used to transport it to the UK must also be taken account of. Finally steel shot must be fired using plastic wads which...regardless of them being so called bio-degradable...are still made from plastic. Lead shot can be loaded with wads made from either plastic or fibre. Steel shot can only be loaded with wads made from plastic.

For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead .22LR aka .22 Rimfire bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead rimfire ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited.

Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit.

This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting.

Steel shot cartridges manufactured in the USA are marked on the box "Not For Use in Damascus Barrel Guns". This is for the reason that such may damage the gun. And may additionally prove dangerous to the user and/or bystanders.

The alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative.

If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of damascus barrel guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive.

The Proof Houses in the United Kingdom furthermore make a blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of post-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by post-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears).

They do NOT make the blanket claim that steel shot can be used in guns of pre-1954 manufacture (this date evidenced by pre-1954 "Rules of Proof" Proof Mark as well as maker's records or recollection by an owner of when a gun was first purchased by its owner or owners forbears).

Therefore in pre-1954 guns alternatives to lead are only genuine alternatives if they are reasonably affordable. Elsewise one might suggest that shot made from gold is an alternative. If an alternative is not reasonably affordable then a de facto ban on the further use of pre-1954 guns will be the result of banning lead shot as steel is not safe and bismuth is prohibitively expensive.

There are also NO NON-LEAD CARTRIDGES for the rimfire vermin shotgun calibres of .22 Rimfire SHOT, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire SHOT nor for the centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" cartridge. Or for ANY pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre.

A ban on non-lead shot would therefore be a de facto ban on the use of .22 Rimfire, 7mm Rimfire, 9mm Rimfire and centrefire 32 Bore, 24 Bore, 14 Bore and 12 Bore "TWO INCH" shotguns. Or for ANY shotguns using pinfire shotgun cartridges in any calibre or for any blackpowder cartridges in any calibre.

By virtue of the much fewer numbers of cartridges in 16 Bore, 28 Bore and .410" Gauge that are loaded the price of such loaded with steel shot would render them almost "bespoke" loaded and so again so expensive as to be a de facto ban. Also ban on non lead shot would again render a de facto ban on the use of 12 Bore shotguns for shooting deer on enclosed land by the landowner under the "farmers' exemption" under the Deer Act.

The legislation that banned fishing weights on basis of the danger or lead shot to waterfowl says this under UK GOV FRESHWATER FISHING RULES "You can only use lead weights if they're 0.06 grams or less or more than 28.35 grams.

This means lead shot weight from size 14 to size 8 and lead weights over one ounce" has been accepted as posing no danger to waterfowl or other birds by ingestion.

Therefore by the logic of that law the continued use of lead shot size 8 and size 9 shot commonly used in clay pigeon shooting and for some live quarry (and some vermin...rats..squirrels) should be continued to be allowed as should the use of lead projectiles of over one ounce in 12 Bore shotguns under the Deer Act under the "farmers' exemption".

Thank you, if I may I shall use some of it myself 

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, Centrepin said:

Thank you, if I may I shall use some of it myself 

Cut and paste away...and these bits too if you'd want!

Large calibre bullets (defined as equal to or larger than 5.6 mm): For use in indoor ranges there would be a ricochet danger from a steel backstop with non lead equal or larger than 5.6mm bullets. Given that an indoor range is, be definition, "indoors" I see no good reason why the use of lead ammunition on indoor ranges should be prohibited. Indeed the same should apply to traditional outdoor ranges with a sand backstop. The ranges are designed that no bullet fired downrange goes anywhere except into the sand backstop and in fifty years of shooting I have never seen birds using sand backstops to obtain grit. This applies to all ranges in the UK with such sand backstops whether for smallbore rifle, fullbore rifle, muzzleloading rifle or, indeed, smallbore or fullbore handgun shooting

Air gun and rifle pellets: I have shot air rifles with both lead and non-lead (tin) projectiles. Tin pellets do not perform as well nor....and this is most important...do they retain their muzzle velocity as well nor penetrate as well. This means that for use on live quarry they give a less clean kill and a less immediate kill. Tin pellets are less humane than lead pellets for shooting live quarry.

Buy-back scheme: If a scheme is to be offered then the Buy Back must be at a fair value and not the less than satisfactory measures that were in place with the Buy Back after the 1996 Firearms Act scheme where the prices seemed to be taken from the magazine advertising of ONE gunshop the London Armoury Company owned by a George Staden.

Indeed the Buy Back for shotgun cartridges should offer not the cost of what is being "bought back" but the cost of what is to replace it and if that replacement can only be cartridges loaded with bismuth shot then the Buy Back compensation should be on that basis. There should also be compensation to cover the cost of converting fixed choke shotguns to the more open choke needed to use non-lead steel shot and, again, compensation for those removable choke tubes through which steel shot cannot be safely used.

Costs for adaptation of existing firearms: The cost to open the choke, per barrel, of a shotgun so as to be able to use steel shot is now, in the trade, a minimum of £60 (per barrel). Figures from local gunsmiths to me are being quoted as "minimum charge of £90 regardless".

We welcome your comments on how a licence scheme for athletes could be operated and how effective it could be: There MUST be no derogation for a limited band, coterie, clique of individuals. This is not "Animal Farm" where "some animals are more equal than others" and if there is to be a ban then all must live under that same ban.

Information from the manufacturers of the alternative ammunition and ranges that currently restrict the use of lead alternatives are particularly welcomed: I know that the there are many ranges for shotguns where because of the ricochet danger that steel shot is prohibited on grounds of safety.

 

[wisdom]

On 13/12/2022 at 13:58, stu64 said:

I will shoot less often, and I already shoot less than I did because of rising costs. sadly my average clay score is going down because of it.

The same here.I thought it was just me but practice really does pay off.

[MAB1954]

If lead is totally banned I will use steel in plastic wads and only take birds that are in the reduced effective range of steel. My centrefire rifles will have copper loads but 22 rimfire could be finished, not sure if there are any copper rimfire options.

[Minky]

Well again.Thanks basic  for selling the shooting community down the river without a shot fired. Talk about white flag job. Again kwis is well pleased.  It  anyone goes to the gun sales section it is clear that there are lots of views but hardly any takers.   It is time to really stop, take stock and for the orgs to remove digits and do something because in the current economic climate the whole tower could implode like the pack of cards.  No more company cars.  No jobs.. p45 time. Laws may be made but  a lot of people that shoot wont even know or bother about the guns and will just shoot them.  After all they've not got much value. A total shambolic state of affairs. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by Minky

[Fisheruk]

On 27/12/2022 at 21:11, MAB1954 said:

If lead is totally banned I will use steel in plastic wads and only take birds that are in the reduced effective range of steel. My centrefire rifles will have copper loads but 22 rimfire could be finished, not sure if there are any copper rimfire options.

I agree with your comments about .22lr. I think you’ll find 17hmr is already available in copper.

Air rifles have lack of accuracy as well as terminal energy and will be virtually useless.

I sent a response to HSE to their consultation. Interesting to note huge inaccuracies in the documents accompanying their consultation documents, with wild assumptions completely devoid of evidence. 

[Fellside]

16 hours ago, Fisheruk said:

I agree with your comments about .22lr. I think you’ll find 17hmr is already available in copper.

Air rifles have lack of accuracy as well as terminal energy and will be virtually useless.

I sent a response to HSE to their consultation. Interesting to note huge inaccuracies in the documents accompanying their consultation documents, with wild assumptions completely devoid of evidence. 

The HSE accompanying document is frankly a load of clap trap. It is nothing more than coercive bias - to influence the form content. 

[Dave at kelton]

22 minutes ago, Fellside said:

The HSE accompanying document is frankly a load of clap trap. It is nothing more than coercive bias - to influence the form content. 

Yep and I told them so!

[Keith 66]

Good post from enfield spares, You can add to it, A ban on lead means a total ban on muzzleloading in all its forms & a ban on using any vintage shotguns & fireams if they are blackpowder.

Yet nowhere have i seen mention of this.

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Keith 66 said:

Good post from enfield spares, You can add to it, A ban on lead means a total ban on muzzleloading in all its forms & a ban on using any vintage shotguns & fireams if they are blackpowder.

Yet nowhere have i seen mention of this.

Why, and if so did you mention this when you completed the consultation? 

[hawkfanz]

if it leads to outright ban,who is going to come out in the countryside and check ammunition,ok they may have a magnet but what about homeloaded non magnetic shot,how would they tell if its lead or not?

[Poor Shot]

Just now, hawkfanz said:

if it leads to outright ban,who is going to come out in the countryside and check ammunition,ok they may have a magnet but what about homeloaded non magnetic shot,how would they tell if its lead or not?

It's likely that nobody will and it will be unenforceable. The average bobby couldn't tell the difference between an air rifle, shotgun, rimfire or centerfire, just looks a like a gun to them. Them telling the difference between lead and non toxic ammo on a random spot check will be impossible. 

What will happen is the eventual drying up of the supply of lead cartridges and components as they will be illegal to sell, unless a partial ban on lead use such as pest control only lead and game being non toxic only happens. Then it will be chaos with reliance on self policing and anyone using whatever they want.

They know this and are aiming for a complete ban as a result. 

Not once have I ever been challenged lakeside on whether the split shot holding my float in position was lead or non toxic and I doubt I ever would have been. It has become near impossible to use small lead split shot as it's no longer supplied due the ban of its use. This is likely what will happen to lead ammunition. 

 

[hawkfanz]

4 minutes ago, Poor Shot said:

It's likely that nobody will and it will be unenforceable. The average bobby couldn't tell the difference between an air rifle, shotgun, rimfire or centerfire, just looks a like a gun to them. Them telling the difference between lead and non toxic ammo on a random spot check will be impossible. 

What will happen is the eventual drying up of the supply of lead cartridges and components as they will be illegal to sell, unless a partial ban on lead use such as pest control only lead and game being non toxic only happens. Then it will be chaos with reliance on self policing and anyone using whatever they want.

They know this and are aiming for a complete ban as a result. 

Not once have I ever been challenged lakeside on whether the split shot holding my float in position was lead or non toxic and I doubt I ever would have been. It has become near impossible to use small lead split shot as it's no longer supplied due the ban of its use. This is likely what will happen to lead ammunition. 

 

exactllyso we stock up with ammo and lead shot for homeloading.im 73 now so i suppose i could get loads in to last me a few yers.

[Vince Green]

How many clay grounds could survive with a significant down turn in people if they are shooting less  ?

How many gunshops could stand a down turn in ammo sales?

Who is going to shoot .22 non lead ammo at around £15 a box when the accuracy is reported to be poor?

In the present financial climate even a small percentage change is going to kill the businesses that supply the sport

Even now before it's happened there is evidence that suppliers are running down their stock.