Strange sentencing

[Gordon R]

🙂

 

[Dave-G]

A small box sums up Gordon's occasional wind up posts rather well.  :-)

Edited December 28, 2022 by Dave-G

[Genghis]

23 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

A small box sums up Gordon's occasional wind up posts rather well.  🙂

It‘a probably more like this for Gordon.

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[Old farrier]

1 hour ago, Genghis said:

It‘a probably more like this for Gordon.

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To be fair there is a vast difference between cannabis and tobacco 

one is legal one isn’t 

its considerably more dangerous to have a illegal firearm if your under the influence of cannabis than tobacco 

so back on topic (sorry op) both had illegal firearms in their possession both go to jail simple 

[Downforce]

23 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

To be fair there is a vast difference between cannabis and tobacco 

one is legal one isn’t 

its considerably more dangerous to have a illegal firearm if your under the influence of cannabis than tobacco 

so back on topic (sorry op) both had illegal firearms in their possession both go to jail simple 

I don’t think anyone has said anything different.
 

It’s more about is it “fair” that the two sentences are roughly the same when one offender had a firearm to underwrite criminal activity and the other (could be argued to have) less risk to public and by implication a larger sentence should go to the drug dealer 

This has been a genuinely interesting thread IMHO and the point raised about being “odd” is very central to how people perceive an offence and a defendant and if it’s reasonable for authorities to use defendants backgrounds and oddness (bearing in mind they can’t generally talk about previous convictions) 
 

You could always draw parallels to more common offences by asking is it fair to get the same sentence for doing 36 in a 30 speed limit vs. stealing a RS4 and ragging it through town trying to get away from police driving on the wrong side of dual carriageway and going through red lights?

[Rewulf]

9 hours ago, Scully said:

I was addicted to nicotine, as that is what smoking is, drug addiction. I’ve never been addicted to drink, but know quite a few who are, or were, and in my opinion it’s one of the most destructive drugs out there. 
I’ve met many an aggressive drunk, and indeed in my younger days was one, but I was also a very unhappy youth anyhow, so didn’t really need the drink, but have never met an aggressive spliff smoker

I'll agree, the aggressive spliff smoker is a rarity, many smoke weed to indeed, curb the anger they inherently feel, and like alcohol, get some kind of escape from the rubbish life they live, or believe they live. 

Not all drug users are the same though, and 99.9% of people have used a drug for something, some time. 

I've never been that fond of weed, made me go to sleep! And never mixed well with alcohol, and that lethargic feeling the next day or two after, but my main issue is what it did to my brother, who got into it aged about 20, he had a job, a life of sorts, but virtually as soon as he started, well... 

He's 53 now, hasn't worked since 20, and lives in a grotty bedsit, his health is dire, mentally he's 'done' and  I truly believe he's not long for this world, he associates with a similar crew of people, some of whom have upgraded to smack, they die on a regular basis. 

I've tried to help him, get him cleaned up, employ him, to no avail, because he cannot let the weed go, it's more important to him than anything. 

To me it's the zombie drug, harmless, yet not, those who regularly participate seem to step off the carousel, and never really want to get back on? 

[Vince Green]

With all the delays in renewing FACs and SGCs at the moment it could be worryingly easy for any of us to end up on the wrong side of the law without really trying

[TIGHTCHOKE]

35 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

With all the delays in renewing FACs and SGCs at the moment it could be worryingly easy for any of us to end up on the wrong side of the law without really trying

Really?

Surely if you have complied with all of the regulations and submitted your renewal in good time and have a good working relationship with your licensing authority all should be good.

[Downforce]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Really?

Surely if you have complied with all of the regulations and submitted your renewal in good time and have a good working relationship with your licensing authority all should be good.

What is good time?

Someone I know submitted their FAC renewal in excess of 7 weeks before expiry having just moved (not wanting to submit an application to the wrong police force) and after 6 weeks was told that it was unlikely they would get the renewal in time for the expiry 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Move to Cambridgeshire, the combined Licensing Authority of Cambs, Beds and Herts have maintained a very good level of service.

[Downforce]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Move to Cambridgeshire, the combined Licensing Authority of Cambs, Beds and Herts have maintained a very good level of service.

Agreed generally for BCH but there’s always the chance that you don’t get your certificate in time and that could effectively make you illegal 

Also there’s other things like people in possession of S58 firearms that became S5 firearms overnight so it has to be conceded that it could happen to people  that have no criminal intent and are under the impression that they are perfectly legal 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Downforce said:

Agreed generally for BCH but there’s always the chance that you don’t get your certificate in time and that could effectively make you illegal 

I don’t understand this. Your licensing authority will know if they can’t issue your ticket in time. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

13 minutes ago, Downforce said:

Agreed generally for BCH but there’s always the chance that you don’t get your certificate in time and that could effectively make you illegal 

Also there’s other things like people in possession of S58 firearms that became S5 firearms overnight so it has to be conceded that it could happen to people  that have no criminal intent and are under the impression that they are perfectly legal 

Yes it could happen that way, BUT I strongly doubt it!

[Downforce]

Just now, Scully said:

I don’t understand this. Your licensing authority will know if they can’t issue your ticket in time. 

As I said…

Someone I know got told after six weeks they were not going to get theirs in time having applied in essence as soon as he could after completing the purchase of a house in a different authority to his FAC had been issued 

The licensing authority may have known that but certainly didn’t proactively let him know it was only after a good bit of chasing they told him 

What to do ? Sell all guns ? Apply before to the old force at the old address and risk the certificate being issued to the new occupants ? Apply before you have purchased the house in the new county (would you be making a false declaration?)

Anyway the point is that there’s going to be situations that could genuinely catch an otherwise law abiding person out and put them in possession of an illegal firearm - same question should everyone get 5 years?

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Really?

Surely if you have complied with all of the regulations and submitted your renewal in good time and have a good working relationship with your licensing authority all should be good.

"Should" is the word. When your licence has expired it has expired and technically that's the end of it. You can hope common sense would prevail but it's a vulnerable time.

[Downforce]

IMHO

The law as it stands in this country makes allowances in both prosecutions (is it an aggravated offence) and sentencing to take account of circumstances and intent.

I don’t know enough about the two cases OP raised but in principle it seems reasonable that someone with a firearm for criminal intent should get a harsher sentence than someone that doesn’t 

I can’t say if either did or did not though so I don’t have a specific opinion 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

In the example posted by downforce I would have notified my current licensing authority and the new licensing authority in good time and sought their guidance. They really can be extremely helpful.

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Downforce said:

What to do ? Sell all guns ? Apply before to the old force at the old address and risk the certificate being issued to the new occupants ? Apply before you have purchased the house in the new county (would you be making a false declaration?)

Thats what I would have done , then informed your FEO that a house move was imminent , paperwork could have been transferred over to new county , or the cert could have been fast tracked or dated forward.

Either way , waiting 7 weeks before expiry is a poor excuse, in Notts you would be housing your guns with an RFD.

They require 3 months minimum for renewals.

[Downforce]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

They really can be extremely helpful.

You are lucky to be BCH where helpfulness is part of the service 

Im not going to go into any more specific details but based on what I heard they were exceptionally unhelpful and didn’t offer any advice despite being asked specifically to advise 

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Downforce said:

I don’t know enough about the two cases OP raised but in principle it seems reasonable that someone with a firearm for criminal intent should get a harsher sentence than someone that doesn’t 

That wasnt really the point, its certainly a factor but ...

The amount of drugs he had , should have given him 5+ years WITHOUT the gun.
The gun just proves he was a dealer willing and equipped to cause fear and violence to boot.

[henry d]

19 minutes ago, Downforce said:

What to do ? Sell all guns ?

No, ask the local gun shop to take them in while it gets sorted, fairly cheap to do. 

[Downforce]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats what I would have done , then informed your FEO that a house move was imminent , paperwork could have been transferred over to new county , or the cert could have been fast tracked or dated forward.

Either way , waiting 7 weeks before expiry is a poor excuse, in Notts you would be housing your guns with an RFD.

They require 3 months minimum for renewals.

Fair comments 

However some forces specifically asked that you don’t submit more than X weeks in advance 

I can’t say if he asked for advice from either force before moving but I could imagine the old force would suggest to wait as it’s easier for them 

Anyway as I said I’m not trying to justify anything just saying there are circumstances that could catch you out (Coronavirus initial lockdown)  that aren’t necessarily your fault that can put you on wrong side of the letter of the law

The question is still if that did happen to you despite taking all the reasonable care should you get the same as a drug dealer with a S5 that was never licensed and explicitly held to support other criminal activities ?

I know it’s interesting to debate the what ifs of could it happen but that’s the real question if it did should everyone get a flat 5 years?

[Rewulf]

45 minutes ago, Downforce said:

Anyway as I said I’m not trying to justify anything just saying there are circumstances that could catch you out (Coronavirus initial lockdown)  that aren’t necessarily your fault that can put you on wrong side of the letter of the law

The question is still if that did happen to you despite taking all the reasonable care should you get the same as a drug dealer with a S5 that was never licensed and explicitly held to support other criminal activities ?

Not in the slightest, one is a wilful act , and one is an oversight/mistake.
Once your cert was going to imminently run out , and you either havent taken action , or are going to be too late, the FEO or manager will write email or call to let you know, that you need to make provisions for storing your guns and sec 1 ammo.

If you fail to comply with this order , they will be coming to fetch them for you once your cert has expired.
NOW youre in trouble, and unless you have a very good reason (severe illness, kidnapped by somali pirates ect) its unlikely you will be getting them back any time soon.
But I doubt very much you will be picking soap up for Bubba.

[Rim Fire]

Had my doctors report back today photo tomorrow and photocopies tomorrow then in not due until March 20 they will have it in  plenty of time 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Downforce said:

As I said…

Someone I know got told after six weeks they were not going to get theirs in time having applied in essence as soon as he could after completing the purchase of a house in a different authority to his FAC had been issued 

The licensing authority may have known that but certainly didn’t proactively let him know it was only after a good bit of chasing they told him 

What to do ? Sell all guns ? Apply before to the old force at the old address and risk the certificate being issued to the new occupants ? Apply before you have purchased the house in the new county (would you be making a false declaration?)

Anyway the point is that there’s going to be situations that could genuinely catch an otherwise law abiding person out and put them in possession of an illegal firearm - same question should everyone get 5 years?

Well in that case it was down to him to take the necessary steps to ensure he doesn’t end up in illegal possession of his own guns. In reality, it was his responsibility to inform the relevant licensing authority of his proposed move, seek guidance and then all parties could respond accordingly. 
It’s irrelevant ( but admittedly annoying ) as to who is at fault regarding the delay, but if there is going to be a delay and an applicant knows they are looking at possibly being in possession of their own guns without a valid ticket, then they need to act accordingly prior to their tickets lapsing. Storing with an RFD is an option, but it can’t just happen that you wake up one morning and realise your tickets have expired and you’re now in possession of illegally held firearms.