Mick Lynch - a different aspect?

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Westward said:

It wasn't directed at you personally.

To explain. What I find incomprehensible is the lack of appreciation in the more deprived areas that education is important and is just as accessible to them as to those in the middle class areas.

I keep hearing reports that poorer people have worse education - and they're always loaded with the underlying implication that it's worse simply because they poorer. My attitude is that it's really the other way around; they're poorer because they don't prioritise education and they don't comprehend aspiration so, as they did themselves, their children leave school as soon as possible, meaning that mostly they can only get carp jobs.

Twenty years go by and the seething envy so many have for those who've done better in life is revved up by the Mick Lynch type of rabble rousing oratory and the usual demands for better pay and conditions (which is always code for more money).

Sigh! And so it goes on, generation after generation.

My original post wasn't aimed at the middle class working hard to better themselves, it's people with access to incredible wealth and power that builds more wealth, often at the expense of everyone else, it really is a very lengthy and complex subject to get into (by design) and I can think of better things to do, but areas such as land ownership, investment banking, exclusive private schooling and a big boys club that keeps it all turning. 

[oowee]

55 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

My original post wasn't aimed at the middle class working hard to better themselves, it's people with access to incredible wealth and power that builds more wealth, often at the expense of everyone else, it really is a very lengthy and complex subject to get into (by design) and I can think of better things to do, but areas such as land ownership, investment banking, exclusive private schooling and a big boys club that keeps it all turning. 

👍 + monarchy.

[morgan]

In real terms in rural communities, local people are much worse off than 25 years ago. Agricultural wages have perhaps just over doubled over the last 25 years, house prices have increased 7 or 10 fold. The interests of the low waged, hard working, tax paying person, which comprises the majority of the UK population, is of zero interest to Westminster. Government isn't just about creating more millionaires. Why is it the profits of the corporations are booming, whilst the man on the street is experiencing a cost of living crisis. Why do we have corruption scandal after corruption scandal. Why haven't we got a Prime Minister elected by the people of the country. At one time voting conservative was about britishness and maintaining british values - now its virtually an unpatriotic act. Somehow there is a narrative going about, that if you criticise the failings of the obviously bent jokers we have in government now - that makes you a dangerous left winger.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by morgan

[Vince Green]

On 28/12/2022 at 13:33, Scully said:

😂 I lodged with a lad who worked for British Rail as it was then; after a two hour breakfast they would turn up on site and break out the cards which they would play until they’d had enough, then have lunch, a bit of a snooze and then do maybe two hours work before knocking off early just to drive to the nearest services where some would do a spot of light shoplifting, before their eventual return to base. He told me this was a regular day. He loved it. 

One bloke took his ferrets and was left alone to do what he liked. 
Another bloke ( a mate of mine ) left because he’s a workaholic and couldn’t stand the sitting about. He was only there a month and said the best bit about it were the waterproofs, which he kept. He told me one of the locals from the village used to often bring one of his rifles to work and they would pot the odd deer or hare. 
 

My shooting mate Colin (now deceased) was a trackside electrician. 

All his working life he kept a (legally owned) demountable. 22 rifle to shoot rabbits at work in his rucksack and he shot thousands

He kept the whole shift supplied

I'm not saying he didn't do his job properly but they often had a lot of spare time on their hands clearly

 

[Scully]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

My shooting mate Colin (now deceased) was a trackside electrician. 

All his working life he kept a (legally owned) demountable. 22 rifle to shoot rabbits at work in his rucksack and he shot thousands

He kept the whole shift supplied

I'm not saying he didn't do his job properly but they often had a lot of spare time on their hands clearly

 

I know an ex-copper who took his .22 to work with him; got to do something to fill the long night shifts ( apart from sitting drinking coffee in the canteen of a local factory ) patrolling in rural Cumbria. 🙂

[Vince Green]

5 minutes ago, Scully said:

I know an ex-copper who took his .22 to work with him; got to do something to fill the long night shifts ( apart from sitting drinking coffee in the canteen of a local factory ) patrolling in rural Cumbria. 🙂

Yes I think the world was a different place back then and it was a better time

Train drivers often kept a single barrel .410 for much the same reason.

Better by far

[Scully]

5 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Yes I think the world was a different place back then and it was a better time

Train drivers often kept a single barrel .410 for much the same reason.

Better by far

Yes, it seemed a much more tolerant time really, if that’s the word I’m looking for. 

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

Last bail out from the IMF was 1976. Strings attached of course.

More like a loan, from a bank, with decent interest. 

It always strikes me that people view the IMF as some kind of fund for struggling nations, a charity. Its nothing of the sort. 

They're a bank. With profit margins, and huge salaries. 

[12gauge82]

12 hours ago, morgan said:

In real terms in rural communities, local people are much worse off than 25 years ago. Agricultural wages have perhaps just over doubled over the last 25 years, house prices have increased 7 or 10 fold. The interests of the low waged, hard working, tax paying person, which comprises the majority of the UK population, is of zero interest to Westminster. Government isn't just about creating more millionaires. Why is it the profits of the corporations are booming, whilst the man on the street is experiencing a cost of living crisis. Why do we have corruption scandal after corruption scandal. Why haven't we got a Prime Minister elected by the people of the country. At one time voting conservative was about britishness and maintaining british values - now its virtually an unpatriotic act. Somehow there is a narrative going about, that if you criticise the failings of the obviously bent jokers we have in government now - that makes you a dangerous left winger.

 

Good Post and sums up the experience of alot of working people. The UK and wider western world needs a massive shake up if we don't want to see average peoples living standards fall even further. 

[Mice!]

On 30/12/2022 at 17:01, Westward said:

keep hearing reports that poorer people have worse education - and they're always loaded with the underlying implication that it's worse simply because they poorer. My attitude is that it's really the other way around; they're poorer because they don't prioritise education and they don't comprehend aspiration so, as they did themselves, their children leave school as soon as possible, meaning that mostly they can only get carp jobs.

Exactly,  we grew up in a working class area,  with very little spare money,  we had part time jobs early on to put towards school trips, and got apprenticeships so we earned something while we got the certificates and education that's needed.

It wasn't easy seeing friends earning 3 times your wage, but if you want more from life then you have to earn it, moaning that hand outs aren't enough is going to get you nowhere. 

[morgan]

For sure, but it is getting to the point that young people, even if they work hard and pull themselves up and do all the things that traditionally society required of their parents to get a start in life - learn a good trade or go to university and get a professional qualification. Yet they will never afford to buy a house, consequently pay massive rents and maybe be forced to visit foodbanks. Often having to leave the communities they grew up in. Benefits and social care are only a small part of government spending. The tax avoidance the government allows to go on, by the corporations that fund them into office, dwarfs the figures in comparison. Britain is the legal money laundering center of the world.

Society needs nurses, teachers, carers, railwaymen, bus drivers, council workers - covid taught us that. Not everyone cannot be a entrepreneur or self employed businessman. Hard working people should be accorded a basic standard of living. How are you supposed to do your job if you have constant financial worries and are worn out from long journeys to work. The cost of housing is driving people out of their regions and nurses are having to commute many miles, just to get to work alone.  Politicians are only interested in representing the interests of a small percentage of the population. Why did the first thing Liz Truss do in getting into office was to announce a £40 billion unfunded tax cut that benefited the richest 5% of our population.

Our unelected prime minister is an indian billionaire, with dual american citizenship, his wife is a nondom tax status person - we have a russian oligarch, who bought himself a seat in the house of Lords. These must be clues, as to the way the country is heading.  Margaret Thatcher was a green grocers daughter. Do you really think Ritchie Sunak's main motivation is the interests of the British working person.

Is the conservative party really still a meritocracy, where the most able and competant politicians get to lead ? The days of the great statesmen are clearly over.

Edited January 1, 2023 by morgan

[12gauge82]

26 minutes ago, morgan said:

For sure, but it is getting to the point that young people work hard and pull themselves up and do all the things that traditionally society required of their parents to get a start in life - get a good trade or go to university and get a professional qualification - yet they will never afford to buy a house, consequently pay massive rents and maybe visit foodbanks. Often having to leave the communities they grew up in. Benefits and social care are only a small part of government spending. The tax avoidance the government allows to go on, by the corporations that fund them into office, dwarfs the figures in comparison. Britain is the legal money laundering center of the world.

Society needs nurses, teachers, carers, railwaymen, bus drivers, council workers - covid taught us that. Not everyone cannot be a entrepreneur or self employed businessman. Hard working people should be accorded a basic standard of living. How are you supposed to do your job if you have constant financial worries and are worn out from long journeys to work. The cost of housing is driving people out of their regions and nurses are having to commute many miles, just to get to work alone.  Politicians are only interested in representing the interests of a small percentage of the population. Why did the first thing Liz Truss do in getting into office was to announce a £40 billion unfunded tax cut that benefited the richest 5% of our population.

Our unelected prime minister is an indian billionaire, with dual american citizenship, his wife is a nondom tax status person - we have a russian oligarch, who bought himself a seat in the house of Lords. These must be clues, as to the way the country is heading.  Margaret Thatcher was green grocers daughter. Do you really think Ritchie Sunak's main motivation is the interests of the British working person.

Is the conservative party really still a meritocracy, where the most able and competant politicians get to lead ? The days of the great statesmen are clearly over.

This is a good overview although I believe liz truss was far more concerned for the average citizen than Sunak. 

[Vince Green]

On 30/12/2022 at 20:52, morgan said:

In real terms in rural communities, local people are much worse off than 25 years ago. Agricultural wages have perhaps just over doubled over the last 25 years, house prices have increased 7 or 10 fold. 

One of the prime reasons I voted for Brexit was because I could see first hand the effects a massive glut of cheap labour was having

Why pay a decent wage if there are people more than happy to work for peanuts? 

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Vince Green said:

One of the prime reasons I voted for Brexit was because I could see first hand the effects a massive glut of cheap labour was having

Why pay a decent wage if there are people more than happy to work for peanuts? 

 

Absolutely part of my reason for brexit to. The damage being done and continuing to be done to the UK because of our EU membership is far reaching, hard to quantify and is weaved right the way through the UK's institutions, it will take decades to start to repair the damage. 

[Westward]

During lockdown I was appalled at the way Sunak dished out a staggering amount of cash in business support without any proper checks into the veracity of the claims. That, along with furlough abuse, cost the country an eye watering amount of money, many billions of which was claimed fraudulently. Almost the first thing he did after becoming PM was to wind up the fraud enquiry. No doubt it would have reflected poorly on him.

But I strongly approve of him overriding the medicos and ordering that people arriving from China will be tested for Covid before being allowed entry.

Sunak isn't a billionaire, but he is a typical product of the values of many Asian families in that he worked hard and did well at school and later qualified as a pharmacist. His wife is very rich in shares though as is the daughter of a billionaire business owner. She was non-dom but became resident when he became chancellor. That was probably a condition of his appointment.

I'm prepared to give him a chance as I think he means well and is handling union dogma about right. If he can quiet down the awkward tory rebels the country might start to look on the government more favourably.  

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, Westward said:

During lockdown I was appalled at the way Sunak dished out a staggering amount of cash in business support without any proper checks into the veracity of the claims. That, along with furlough abuse, cost the country an eye watering amount of money, many billions of which was claimed fraudulently. Almost the first thing he did after becoming PM was to wind up the fraud enquiry. No doubt it would have reflected poorly on him.

But I strongly approve of him overriding the medicos and ordering that people arriving from China will be tested for Covid before being allowed entry.

Sunak isn't a billionaire, but he is a typical product of the values of many Asian families in that he worked hard and did well at school and later qualified as a pharmacist. His wife is very rich in shares though as is the daughter of a billionaire business owner. She was non-dom but became resident when he became chancellor. That was probably a condition of his appointment.

I'm prepared to give him a chance as I think he means well and is handling union dogma about right. If he can quiet down the awkward tory rebels the country might start to look on the government more favourably.  

Agree with that in the main.  However, the Covid cash was difficult; something needed to be done quickly to avoid mass business collapse.  Fraud has to be detected at the point of application - once issued, it is very hard to get back.  My guess is that the civil service had/have no system to do this on an appropriate scale - and so little or no rigorous checking was done.  It is hard to see how rigorous checking system could have been introduced in any suitably quick timescale.

I would also say that his 'eat out' scheme was badly flawed (though I think it was well accepted at the time).

[shaun4860]

On 30/12/2022 at 20:52, morgan said:

 Why haven't we got a Prime Minister elected by the people of the country. 

 

We never elect a Prime Minister,

We elect a party, the party chooses their leader.

Same with Gordon Brown, became leader of the Labour Party and so became the Prime Minister 

[JohnfromUK]

12 minutes ago, shaun4860 said:

Same with Gordon Brown, became leader of the Labour Party and so became the Prime Minister

I think also the same when Callaghan replaced Wilson.

[oowee]

On 01/01/2023 at 13:27, Vince Green said:

One of the prime reasons I voted for Brexit was because I could see first hand the effects a massive glut of cheap labour was having

Why pay a decent wage if there are people more than happy to work for peanuts? 

 

You would no doubt support labours proposals for an increase in the minimum wage? 

Open borders allowed mobility of labour and lead to a more competitive Europe. Our current shortage of labour has led directly to a loss of production for UK plc. Close the borders by all means but what have we done to respond to the impacts? Nothing. 

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

You would no doubt support labours proposals for an increase in the minimum wage? 

Open borders allowed mobility of labour and lead to a more competitive Europe. Our current shortage of labour has led directly to a loss of production for UK plc. Close the borders by all means but what have we done to respond to the impacts? Nothing. 

I know you weren't asking me, but I do support a rise in the minimum wage, the thing is though, if it weren't for EU membership, we'd never have needed a minimum wage in the first place. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 01/01/2023 at 12:12, morgan said:

For sure, but it is getting to the point that young people, even if they work hard and pull themselves up and do all the things that traditionally society required of their parents to get a start in life - learn a good trade or go to university and get a professional qualification. Yet they will never afford to buy a house, consequently pay massive rents and maybe be forced to visit foodbanks. Often having to leave the communities they grew up in. Benefits and social care are only a small part of government spending. The tax avoidance the government allows to go on, by the corporations that fund them into office, dwarfs the figures in comparison. Britain is the legal money laundering center of the world.

Society needs nurses, teachers, carers, railwaymen, bus drivers, council workers - covid taught us that. Not everyone cannot be a entrepreneur or self employed businessman. Hard working people should be accorded a basic standard of living. How are you supposed to do your job if you have constant financial worries and are worn out from long journeys to work. The cost of housing is driving people out of their regions and nurses are having to commute many miles, just to get to work alone.  Politicians are only interested in representing the interests of a small percentage of the population. Why did the first thing Liz Truss do in getting into office was to announce a £40 billion unfunded tax cut that benefited the richest 5% of our population.

Our unelected prime minister is an indian billionaire, with dual american citizenship, his wife is a nondom tax status person - we have a russian oligarch, who bought himself a seat in the house of Lords. These must be clues, as to the way the country is heading.  Margaret Thatcher was a green grocers daughter. Do you really think Ritchie Sunak's main motivation is the interests of the British working person.

Is the conservative party really still a meritocracy, where the most able and competant politicians get to lead ? The days of the great statesmen are clearly over.

Hello, excellent post, 👍

[12gauge82]

On 01/01/2023 at 12:12, morgan said:

For sure, but it is getting to the point that young people, even if they work hard and pull themselves up and do all the things that traditionally society required of their parents to get a start in life - learn a good trade or go to university and get a professional qualification. Yet they will never afford to buy a house, consequently pay massive rents and maybe be forced to visit foodbanks. Often having to leave the communities they grew up in. Benefits and social care are only a small part of government spending. The tax avoidance the government allows to go on, by the corporations that fund them into office, dwarfs the figures in comparison. Britain is the legal money laundering center of the world.

Society needs nurses, teachers, carers, railwaymen, bus drivers, council workers - covid taught us that. Not everyone cannot be a entrepreneur or self employed businessman. Hard working people should be accorded a basic standard of living. How are you supposed to do your job if you have constant financial worries and are worn out from long journeys to work. The cost of housing is driving people out of their regions and nurses are having to commute many miles, just to get to work alone.  Politicians are only interested in representing the interests of a small percentage of the population. Why did the first thing Liz Truss do in getting into office was to announce a £40 billion unfunded tax cut that benefited the richest 5% of our population.

Our unelected prime minister is an indian billionaire, with dual american citizenship, his wife is a nondom tax status person - we have a russian oligarch, who bought himself a seat in the house of Lords. These must be clues, as to the way the country is heading.  Margaret Thatcher was a green grocers daughter. Do you really think Ritchie Sunak's main motivation is the interests of the British working person.

Is the conservative party really still a meritocracy, where the most able and competant politicians get to lead ? The days of the great statesmen are clearly over.

I re read this after pigeon popper re quoted it and it sums up very simply the financial problems faced by the western worlds young. What amazes me is the number of working people who seem to have missed what's going on and are arguing the case of the elites in society that have caused the issues they face. It really is a case of turkeys voting for Christmas! 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, I've met union leaders like Mick Lynch 🤔, 

[muncher]

The problem all started with mass immigration. That equates to shortages of housing schools NHS etc, that’s where the problem started. Mass immigration was just to keep the economy strong with cheap labour, it was never for the benefit of the country’. 

[Westward]

On 01/01/2023 at 12:12, morgan said:

For sure, but it is getting to the point that young people, even if they work hard and pull themselves up and do all the things that traditionally society required of their parents to get a start in life - learn a good trade or go to university and get a professional qualification. Yet they will never afford to buy a house, consequently pay massive rents and maybe be forced to visit foodbanks.

My wife and I are both from modest working class backgrounds, especially my wife. We have 3 sons whom we supported  through university costing around £10K each, but since then none has asked for any further financial support apart from one who moved back for a year to save up his deposit.

They all live in their own (mortgaged) homes and none has been to the food bank.

It's not about going to university, it's about taking the right course at the right university. Too many go primarily for the freedom and lifestyle and take any old subject that's not too demanding like textile design or philosophy then, when they leave, they end up working somewhere like the local council because they can't get the well paid career position they expected.