Can Anyone Tell the Difference?

[wymberley]

In 0.3 ftlbs, 15.8 ft/sec and 0.0076 seconds of a shotgun terminal arrival of shotgun pellets at 50 yards?

[old'un]

Well I have never thought about it, just pull the trigger and hope I am on target. 

[Dave at kelton]

People often ask when I am muzzle loading if it is slower and do I give more lead. My answer is I don’t know the difference. I lead as normal and just pull the trigger.

[Ultrastu]

What's the question ? 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

In 0.3 ftlbs, 15.8 ft/sec and 0.0076 seconds of a shotgun terminal arrival of shotgun pellets at 50 yards?

If the question is ‘can you notice any time delay at 50 yards?’ then yes is my answer. I have frequently noticed a slight  gap in time between the bang and then the bird being hit. I have no idea what the real length of time lapse is - but it’s definitely different to a seemingly instant kill at say 25 yards. It’s also possible that some birds are beyond 50 yards. Certainly some patterns are feasible at 60 yards (just).

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, Fellside said:

If the question is ‘can you notice any time delay at 50 yards?’ then yes is my answer. I have frequently noticed a slight  gap in time between the bang and then the bird being hit. I have no idea what the real length of time lapse is - but it’s definitely different to a seemingly instant kill at say 25 yards. It’s also possible that some birds are beyond 50 yards. Certainly some patterns are feasible at 60 yards (just).

Cheers, I could have worded that better.

I meant to say could anyone notice the differences detailed between the measurements given for the performance of any two cartridges. EG, can anyone truly tell the difference  from a distance of 50 yards between 0.2014 and 0.1938 - the 0.0076 - seconds?

 

[Walker570]

Simple answer   NO.

The answer by Fellside is also correct because of course your brain can judge some very small incidents indeed and a bird at 20yrds is almost instant boot that computer we all carry in our sculls...well almost all considering somes behaviour... will see that very slight pause on a long shot, not that I worry myself about things like that  when just trying to put it in the pattern

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, wymberley said:

Cheers, I could have worded that better.

I meant to say could anyone notice the differences detailed between the measurements given for the performance of any two cartridges. EG, can anyone truly tell the difference  from a distance of 50 yards between 0.2014 and 0.1938 - the 0.0076 - seconds?

 

No - can’t tell the difference between two different cart’s. 

[London Best]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

In 0.3 ftlbs, 15.8 ft/sec and 0.0076 seconds of a shotgun terminal arrival of shotgun pellets at 50 yards?

Of course you can’t.

Shot to shot variation is greater than that. Much greater.

[wymberley]

Cheers, Guys, I didn't want to take my word for it.

[enfieldspares]

I think you can and I think the guys who shoot clays do especially if shooting far out driven clay birds. That the break seems a long time coming.

I've shot to test standard .410 and subsonic .410 that way and when you switch from standard to subsonic you at first think you've missed the bird!

And certainly I have heard better experienced shots remark that cartridge X seems slower than cartridge Y.

[London Best]

1 hour ago, enfieldspares said:

I think you can and I think the guys who shoot clays do especially if shooting far out driven clay birds. That the break seems a long time coming.

I've shot to test standard .410 and subsonic .410 that way and when you switch from standard to subsonic you at first think you've missed the bird!

And certainly I have heard better experienced shots remark that cartridge X seems slower than cartridge Y.

The OP said 15 FPS difference, not subsonic to standard. 
I bet there is often 70 FPS difference between two cartridges from the same box.

[wymberley]

41 minutes ago, London Best said:

The OP said 15 FPS difference, not subsonic to standard. 
I bet there is often 70 FPS difference between two cartridges from the same box.

To avoid confusion, the difference in MV (0) was 150 ft/sec and that at the 50 yards 15.8 ft/sec. Dropping the lower velocity down to 1075 for subsonic then the 0.0076 became multiplied by a factor of c4.5.

[enfieldspares]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

I bet there is often 70 FPS difference between two cartridges from the same box.

You should stop using Eley then! LOL!

[Scully]

You can sometimes notice a discernible gap between firing a shot and seeing the clay break, but that’s down to the range of the target. 
I doubt anyone can tell the difference between a slow or fast cartridge, and certainly not to the point where it made a difference to their shooting. 

[Diver One]

I often pull the trigger, hear the bang, then wait a

[Fellside]

2 hours ago, Diver One said:

I often pull the trigger, hear the bang, then wait a

…. while till the clay breaks on the ground. Couldn’t resist finishing that sentence. 😄

Sorry, you’re probably a world champion for all I know…. ?!

[Diver One]

45 minutes ago, Fellside said:

…. while till the clay breaks on the ground. Couldn’t resist finishing that sentence. 😄

Sorry, you’re probably a world champion for all I know…. ?!

I am a world champion Clay target conservationist. Most can be reused

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Diver One said:

I am a world champion Clay target conservationist. Most can be reused

🤣👍

[islandgun]

On 06/02/2023 at 10:39, wymberley said:

To avoid confusion, the difference in MV (0) was 150 ft/sec and that at the 50 yards 15.8 ft/sec. Dropping the lower velocity down to 1075 for subsonic then the 0.0076 became multiplied by a factor of c4.5.

But im still confused...😄

[wymberley]

On 07/02/2023 at 16:42, islandgun said:

But im still confused...😄

Sorry about that. But it's going to get worse. Stepson is quite new to shooting in the sense that he's lead only and he's in to driven so has already hit a wall on some shoots. I was helping him out with choices of NTS and I also got confused. My gut feeling is that we need to revisit both the 96:1 and recoil.

[Scully]

5 hours ago, wymberley said:

Sorry about that. But it's going to get worse. Stepson is quite new to shooting in the sense that he's lead only and he's in to driven so has already hit a wall on some shoots. I was helping him out with choices of NTS and I also got confused. My gut feeling is that we need to revisit both the 96:1 and recoil.

Why or how has he ‘hit a wall’? 

[wymberley]

Having to use NTS and not sure which to go for and really wants to stock up now (for good reason which makes sense for him). I’m going to suggest that he gets just sufficient for just one season at a time until he sees how things pan out.

[neutron619]

On 04/02/2023 at 10:33, wymberley said:

In 0.3 ftlbs, 15.8 ft/sec and 0.0076 seconds of a shotgun terminal arrival of shotgun pellets at 50 yards?

Assuming the bird / clay is travelling at 100mph (c. 44m/s), the maximum possible displacement between the two example cartridges is about 30cm (i.e. how far did it travel in 0.0076s).

A "full" pattern (i.e. 70% in 30" @ 40 yards) will be about 150-180cm across at 50m.

So assuming the shooter puts the center of the pattern in the right place and pattern is sufficient, then the answer is no difference at all - every target will remain within the shot cloud for either cartridge if the assumptions above hold.

If the question is "how many targets will I miss because the arrival of the shot is delayed by a fraction of a second?" then that can be answered by knowing what area of the pattern becomes unusable because of the extra displacement of the target.

Assuming a 5" (12.7cm) circle to approximate the bird's (or clay's) vital area then any target within 17.3cm of the pattern edge could theoretically become a "miss" because the bird or clay has moved outward, directly away from the center point of the pattern. Note that this is the worst case scenario. The clay could be moving inward, towards the center of the pattern, or across it. In fact, given a random direction of travel, it's much more likely that a target 17.3cm from the edge of the pattern area is moving within the pattern than heading out of it.

Nonetheless, assuming the worst case (i.e. every target is flying directly away from the center of the pattern) for a moment, we can state that the outermost 17.3cm of pattern would become unusable. Taking the areas of the "usable" pattern (which has a radius 17.3cm smaller than the complete pattern) and assuming a 180cm pattern (again, worst case), we find:

Area of 90cm radius (= 180cm diameter) pattern: 2.5446m² (approx.)
Area of 72.7cm radius (= 145.4cm diameter) pattern: 1.6604m² (approx)

Ratio of areas: 0.6526 (approx.)

So in the worst case, we could miss 35% of our targets!

However:

The worst case isn't realistic. In fact, if you think about it, there are plenty of directions in which a target, 17.3cm from the edge of our pattern, could travel and still be inside the pattern. Look at the (scale) diagram below:

The large grey circle is the overall (180cm) pattern area. The inner yellow circle is the reduced area, accounting for the 17.3cm reduction in radius. The green / red circle in the top left represents a circle of 30cm radius, which shows the possible movement of the target from the point on the edge of the usable pattern either into or out of the whole pattern.

The green highlighted area represents all the places it would be possible for the (5" circle) target to fly and still be within the pattern after 0.076s. The reddish-pink area is the area in which it would be possible for the target to fly in that time where it would not be within the pattern.

I could at this point write out the rather complicated geometry which calculates the area of two circles overlapping, but it won't help. Hopefully you'll agree on the basis of looking at the picture above that the final answer comes out as: the red area covers approximately 18.3% of the circle. Remember that this accounts for the 5" circle due to the calculations above.

Rolling this up into our result above, it means that the chance of a target escaping the pattern is really about

18.3% * 35% = 6.4%

which is about 1 in 15 targets.

However, we should now revisit our original assumptions which were rather extreme.

We stated that the target was 50m away, doing 100mph directly across the pattern which is certainly not a "normal" target.

Using the same mathematics, we could also state that

• a target doing 35mph wouldn't escape the pattern at all (some part of the 5" circle approximation would always intersect with the pattern)
• a target doing 65mph would travel 22cm in the given time, making the outer 9.3cm of the pattern potentially unusable (20% of the total area), and - following the approach above to rule out targets flying across / into / out of the pattern - would result in an 5% target loss (25% of 20%).
• a target quartering at 45 degrees at 100mph would show roughly the same chance of escape as the 65mph / 90 degree target (the perpendicular displacement is roughly the same at 22cm).
• driven birds coming towards the shooter and going-away targets would not suffer from the delay at all since there is no horizontal displacement.

Closer in, with shot travelling faster, the times are smaller, the distance the target moves in that time is smaller and the effect is much reduced, even with very fast targets.

Since

• most targets aren't doing 100mph
• aren't at 50m
• aren't going perpendicularly to the shooter
• the effects of bad patterns, bad shooting and birds flying unpredictably are far more significant

the practical effect of 0.0076s delay is, zero.

Humans can't detect durations that short or react that fast anyway, so even if you knew it was happening, you wouldn't be able to do anything to compensate.

Hope this helps. Will add further thoughts if they occur to me.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by neutron619
Correction

[London Best]

Gordon Bennett will be along in a moment.