Do you trust BASC

[Gordon R]

neutron619 - I don't know how you can you can accuse Rewulf of being rude, when your post is little more than a patronising tirade. There is almost a campaign to have the thread shut down or silence someone. 

Frankly, I find it distasteful.

[Rewulf]

23 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

There is almost a campaign to have the thread shut down or silence someone. 

Wouldnt be the first time.

 

[Dave-G]

52 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

neutron619 - I don't know how you can you can accuse Rewulf of being rude, when your post is little more than a patronising tirade. There is almost a campaign to have the thread shut down or silence someone. 

Frankly, I find it distasteful.

Its very rare for me to agree with a point Gordon R makes and i suspect i'm on his ignore list, but, I fully agree with him as he writes much better than I can.

[clangerman]

if there was a medal for standing firm under fire from waffle rewolf should get one full credit to Gordon for nailing it also 

[Gordon R]

Dave-G - I didn't realise we had disagreed and I don't have an ignore list. No problem on my side. 🙂

 

[12gauge82]

I've watched this thread with interest and am in the camp that I believe basc have done their best for shooting and shooters in general.

I am interested in the questions asked by rewulf and am somewhat bemused at the offence taken by some and the obvious attempts to get the thread locked, which I've experienced with a thread I started myself recently. 

[neutron619]

7 hours ago, Gordon R said:

neutron619 - I don't know how you can you can accuse Rewulf of being rude, when your post is little more than a patronising tirade. There is almost a campaign to have the thread shut down or silence someone. 

Frankly, I find it distasteful.

Yes, and - although it might be difficult for you to acknowledge - I find it distasteful too. As an old-school liberal (i.e the real kind, not the modern, flaky "liberal demorcrat" kind), I wouldn't normally want to see anyone shut down, but there is a reason for it this time.

(And before I go on, I'd like to point out my explicit comments indicating that I think BASC have some questions to answer and that Rewulf has asked some important questions. I might even agree with some of his points of view, as I indicated in the previous thread.)

However, there comes a point (and this has been my point throughout my commentary here) where it's clear that there's nothing further to be gained from flogging the dead horse so to speak.

In fact, my post to which you refer was not a tirade, and neither was it patronising in so far as it was necessary for someone to say those things, though I grant that it could have been taken so.

To avoid any further confusion, let me explain the subtlety behind it that you and others have obviously missed, in the simplest possible terms: start another thread.

I too want to hear what BASC have to say in answer to at least some of the questions asked. But it's obvious you aren't going to get any more answers here because you've made it impossible for Conor or anyone else to answer given your mode of attack, the subject of the thread and the way that you've simply dismissed any answers you don't like or diverted his responses with other questions to try and score points.

So, in the interests of all of us hearing something more constructive, I ask you:

Please write a bulleted list of the questions you want answered. Post them here in a new thread (try "Questions for BASC" instead of some "when did you last murder a puppy?"-type title) and give Conor or whoever at BASC a day or two to come back with answers to all of them.

Then - and this is the important bit - take him at his word. You may not like what he says, but it may surprise you to know (or recall) that people aren't generally evil and that they usually do act for the right reasons and in theirs and others' best interests.

Then, finally, leave it alone. Agree to disagree, or something. But above all, please try to demonstrate some awareness that people have to be made to feel that it's worth their time to engage with you and that you, as the petitioner, have a responsibility to be courteous and acknowledge others' best efforts, even if you personally don't feel they're adequate.

[holloway]

43 minutes ago, neutron619 said:

Yes, and - although it might be difficult for you to acknowledge - I find it distasteful too. As an old-school liberal (i.e the real kind, not the modern, flaky "liberal demorcrat" kind), I wouldn't normally want to see anyone shut down, but there is a reason for it this time.

(And before I go on, I'd like to point out my explicit comments indicating that I think BASC have some questions to answer and that Rewulf has asked some important questions. I might even agree with some of his points of view, as I indicated in the previous thread.)

However, there comes a point (and this has been my point throughout my commentary here) where it's clear that there's nothing further to be gained from flogging the dead horse so to speak.

In fact, my post to which you refer was not a tirade, and neither was it patronising in so far as it was necessary for someone to say those things, though I grant that it could have been taken so.

To avoid any further confusion, let me explain the subtlety behind it that you and others have obviously missed, in the simplest possible terms: start another thread.

I too want to hear what BASC have to say in answer to at least some of the questions asked. But it's obvious you aren't going to get any more answers here because you've made it impossible for Conor or anyone else to answer given your mode of attack, the subject of the thread and the way that you've simply dismissed any answers you don't like or diverted his responses with other questions to try and score points.

So, in the interests of all of us hearing something more constructive, I ask you:

Please write a bulleted list of the questions you want answered. Post them here in a new thread (try "Questions for BASC" instead of some "when did you last murder a puppy?"-type title) and give Conor or whoever at BASC a day or two to come back with answers to all of them.

Then - and this is the important bit - take him at his word. You may not like what he says, but it may surprise you to know (or recall) that people aren't generally evil and that they usually do act for the right reasons and in theirs and others' best interests.

Then, finally, leave it alone. Agree to disagree, or something. But above all, please try to demonstrate some awareness that people have to be made to feel that it's worth their time to engage with you and that you, as the petitioner, have a responsibility to be courteous and acknowledge others' best efforts, even if you personally don't feel they're adequate.

My guess is you will get no more dialogue or discussion from Basc on this forum you will just get the odd update .

No real surprise why would you bother ?

[Gordon R]

Quote

In fact, my post to which you refer was not a tirade, and neither was it patronising in so far as it was necessary for someone to say those things, though I grant that it could have been taken so.

I did take it so. Your last response was even more patronising, with your laughable claim of subtlety. 

Your answer is to shut this thread down and start another thread. Way too subtle for me. Just what would that achieve? Would you and others claim the subject had been done to death and strongly suggest closing that down too?

Rewulf has asked a question repeatedly, but I don't see the answer. Why would BASC provide the information on a new thread, but can't or won't on this thread?

[London Best]

This is by far the most tedious thread I have seen on this forum.

[Scully]

40 minutes ago, London Best said:

This is by far the most tedious thread I have seen on this forum.

Oh I don’t know, some of the ballistics ones take some beating! 😀

Im jesting of course ( or am I ? ) but there are some very interesting questions raised by Rewulf, that I’m surprised members aren’t inquisitive about; after all, it’s their money. 

[merseamal]

10 hours ago, neutron619 said:

Yes, and - although it might be difficult for you to acknowledge - I find it distasteful too. As an old-school liberal (i.e the real kind, not the modern, flaky "liberal demorcrat" kind), I wouldn't normally want to see anyone shut down, but there is a reason for it this time.

(And before I go on, I'd like to point out my explicit comments indicating that I think BASC have some questions to answer and that Rewulf has asked some important questions. I might even agree with some of his points of view, as I indicated in the previous thread.)

However, there comes a point (and this has been my point throughout my commentary here) where it's clear that there's nothing further to be gained from flogging the dead horse so to speak.

In fact, my post to which you refer was not a tirade, and neither was it patronising in so far as it was necessary for someone to say those things, though I grant that it could have been taken so.

To avoid any further confusion, let me explain the subtlety behind it that you and others have obviously missed, in the simplest possible terms: start another thread.

I too want to hear what BASC have to say in answer to at least some of the questions asked. But it's obvious you aren't going to get any more answers here because you've made it impossible for Conor or anyone else to answer given your mode of attack, the subject of the thread and the way that you've simply dismissed any answers you don't like or diverted his responses with other questions to try and score points.

So, in the interests of all of us hearing something more constructive, I ask you:

Please write a bulleted list of the questions you want answered. Post them here in a new thread (try "Questions for BASC" instead of some "when did you last murder a puppy?"-type title) and give Conor or whoever at BASC a day or two to come back with answers to all of them.

Then - and this is the important bit - take him at his word. You may not like what he says, but it may surprise you to know (or recall) that people aren't generally evil and that they usually do act for the right reasons and in theirs and others' best interests.

Then, finally, leave it alone. Agree to disagree, or something. But above all, please try to demonstrate some awareness that people have to be made to feel that it's worth their time to engage with you and that you, as the petitioner, have a responsibility to be courteous and acknowledge others' best efforts, even if you personally don't feel they're adequate.

I don’t see the need for another post.

all questions have been answered repeatedly.

re-listing the questions (here) is a good idea, they can then be re-answered (here)

whilst there are some BASC employees on here, it’s certainly not the best place to ask questions of BASC, much better to phone, email, attend a meeting, show, agm or any of the other very accessible routes.

one thing I am a little unsure of, from what I’ve read the BASC members on here seem very happy with what BASC is and has done, and satisfied with the answers, it’s the non-BASC members that want answers from an organisation they don’t support? Want answers from an organisation they don’t vote in council elections for? Want to be consulted yet aren’t members? Want answers but don’t get the magazine and probably don’t subscribe to emails? And what are you trying to achieve? Get others to leave BASC? To change BASC from the “outside” so you can rejoin? Divide the shooting community?

those that want answers from BASC, can you answer my questions?

[Scully]

3 minutes ago, merseamal said:

I don’t see the need for another post.

all questions have been answered repeatedly.

re-listing the questions (here) is a good idea, they can then be re-answered (here)

whilst there are some BASC employees on here, it’s certainly not the best place to ask questions of BASC, much better to phone, email, attend a meeting, show, agm or any of the other very accessible routes.

one thing I am a little unsure of, from what I’ve read the BASC members on here seem very happy with what BASC is and has done, and satisfied with the answers, it’s the non-BASC members that want answers from an organisation they don’t support? Want answers from an organisation they don’t vote in council elections for? Want to be consulted yet aren’t members? Want answers but don’t get the magazine and probably don’t subscribe to emails? And what are you trying to achieve? Get others to leave BASC? To change BASC from the “outside” so you can rejoin? Divide the shooting community?

those that want answers from BASC, can you answer my questions?

Yes, I can. Will get back to you this evening, am just off out. 👍

[12gauge82]

20 minutes ago, merseamal said:

 

 

whilst there are some BASC employees on here, it’s certainly not the best place to ask questions of BASC, much better to phone, email, attend a meeting, show, agm or any of the other very accessible routes.

 

I respectfully disagree, why not answer questions here so that many people can see the answers, it saves the same questions being asked all the time and may give information to many people about things they've never even considered?

[Gordon R]

neutron619 - I find your posts offensive. It is obvious you aren't very bright. 

Your pathetic solution might make sense to you, but I suspect to few others. As for the remarks you have made about me, I will report them to the Mods.

[Rewulf]

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

 

The logic behind such a metaphor defies any kind of reasoning 

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

"I despise BASC and all their works but I demand that they answer my questions. I will ask these questions with preconceptions about what the answers should be. When they answer, I will refuse to listen, assume malice or demand different answers which I consider to be more "correct". When others question me, I will assume malice and ridicule their contributions. I am entitled to demand that those who pay the salaries of the people answering my questions should remain silent, in case I am forced to deal with their difficult opinions. If anyone suggests that a different approach might yeild better results, I will cast aspersions on their character and ridicule them."

Lets try and untangle this twisted set of assumptions an blatant misinformation.

I dont despise BASC inany way shape or form , never said it, never insinuated it.
In fact, back in 2014 when I first got my tickets , I had a legal issue, and my tickets 'suspended' I joined BASC and asked for advice, they were very helpful, and promised to stand up for me, in the end I didnt need them, and resolved it myself , but I never forgot that they were there for me, just a few days into my membership.
Up to 2020, I recommended BASC as the place to go for shooting insurance.
I left in 2020 due to the legal cover being pulled, and the lead stance, I said at the time that it was a mistake to invite a lead ban , as it wouldnt end there....

I dont demand they answer my questions, Im not in any position , clearly,  to demand anything, if my language sounds demanding , I apologise , as it wasnt intentional.

When they answer ?
Have a read back my friend, Conor hasnt answered ONE SINGLE question, you answering for him with your OPINION , is not what I was looking for.

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

When others question me, I will assume malice and ridicule their contributions.

Show me , quote me where Ive ridiculed anyone, you said I called you names, quote me.
You say I assumed malice ? Have you read some of the jibes and insults against me 
Who have I insulted ?

 

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

I am entitled to demand that those who pay the salaries of the people answering my questions should remain silent,

Am I reading a different thread ?
Where has anyonebeen told anyone to be silent ?

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

If anyone suggests that a different approach might yeild better results, I will cast aspersions on their character and ridicule them."

The 'different approach' is to lock the thread !

 

4 hours ago, neutron619 said:

what are you afraid of?

What is BASC afraid of ?
Simple questions have been asked, theyve done a runner 

5 hours ago, merseamal said:

all questions have been answered repeatedly.

Where ?

[welsh1]

Warnings have been issued, keep it civilised please.

[merseamal]

5 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I respectfully disagree, why not answer questions here so that many people can see the answers, it saves the same questions being asked all the time and may give information to many people about things they've never even considered?

The questions, as far as I can see have been answered 

[Gordon R]

Quote

The questions, as far as I can see have been answered 

If Rewulf's question has been answered, I must have missed it. Perhaps you could point it out.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, merseamal said:

The questions, as far as I can see have been answered 

Then you wont have any trouble quoting them ?
Ive re read this thread several times , to check whether my conduct has been in any way aggressive , hateful or not factual, Ive also checked whether Conor answered any questions, the only he thing he tried to explain was why Swifty got his honour. Despite the fact he headed up the LAG, and effectively went to war on the shooting public.

Now, unless you have direct access to detailed BASC expenditure , and are prepared to post it , no , no other questions were answered.
Ill be speaking to Conor next week , and we shall see if he wants to answer the question then.

In the meantime a read of the first dozen posts on this thread from 2020 might give you some insight into how much BASC have taken their eye off the ball.

https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/403528-basc-to-cease-legal-expenses-cover-wef-31-july-2020/#comments

 

[Scully]

8 hours ago, merseamal said:

 

all questions have been answered repeatedly.

Not all actually. As Rewulf stated, if that was so then you could quote them. 

whilst there are some BASC employees on here, it’s certainly not the best place to ask questions of BASC, much better to phone, email, attend a meeting, show, agm or any of the other very accessible routes.

Where else could non-members ask them? 

one thing I am a little unsure of, from what I’ve read the BASC members on here seem very happy with what BASC is and has done,

Well, all those who have expressed an interest anyhow.  it’s the non-BASC members that want answers from an organisation they don’t support?

BASC has announced itself up as the voice of shooting; it doesn’t differentiate between being the voice of just its membership, but ‘the voice of shooting’, and creates policy (eg the voluntary lead shot phase out ) which  effect ALL shooters…..without consultation.
The lead shot phase out isn’t just for its members, it is something BASC has created for ALL shooters, so it’s therefore reasonable for ALL shooters and not just its membership to ask questions and expect answers. 
Want answers from an organisation they don’t vote in council elections for? Want to be consulted yet aren’t members?
As far as I’m aware the greatest criticism is coming from ‘ex’ members, and they’re ex for a reason. 

Want answers but don’t get the magazine and probably don’t subscribe to emails?

 

I refer you to answers I’ve just given above. 
And what are you trying to achieve?

Clarity. 

Get others to leave BASC?
Not at all. 

To change BASC from the “outside” so you can rejoin?

Are you suggesting it needs to change? 

Divide the shooting community?

Have you been on the moon! When were UK shooters ever united? 
 

 

 

[merseamal]

16 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Then you wont have any trouble quoting them ?
Ive re read this thread several times , to check whether my conduct has been in any way aggressive , hateful or not factual, Ive also checked whether Conor answered any questions, the only he thing he tried to explain was why Swifty got his honour. Despite the fact he headed up the LAG, and effectively went to war on the shooting public.

Now, unless you have direct access to detailed BASC expenditure , and are prepared to post it , no , no other questions were answered.
Ill be speaking to Conor next week , and we shall see if he wants to answer the question then.

In the meantime a read of the first dozen posts on this thread from 2020 might give you some insight into how much BASC have taken their eye off the ball.

https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/403528-basc-to-cease-legal-expenses-cover-wef-31-july-2020/#comments

 

Other than the senior management team, the council and finance dept then no, not detailed accounts, and why should anyone else have access?

Fighting fund, 7 figures, remaining fighting fund is in the public accounts available to all.

BASC have fought wild justice, legal expenses over the general license (I’m pretty sure) and also massively helped Humber wildfowlers, all in the public domain.

I have also sent you a PM.

so on my previous post I had a whole raft of questions, would you do the decency of answering them?

Edited March 18, 2023 by merseamal

[Conor O'Gorman]

@Rewulf I have looked over the thread and I don't see any questions unanswered.

As regards BASC fighting fund the Chairman's report in the 2021 BASC annual review states the following: "BASC also deployed its newly launched Fighting Fund to counter legal and more conventional threats to shooting. The fund has been a true measure of our mettle over the period. We have beaten off legal challenges to areas from hen harrier brood management and prescribed burning on moorland, to general licences and gamebird release near protected sites. While the chief distinction of Wild Justice’s track record to date is repeated defeat, other threats exist and there is no room for complacency. Although our aim is always to resolve issues constructively, BASC remains ready to show its teeth in the face of blatant hostility, wilful ignorance and obstructiveness."

At the end of the 2021 BASC annual review is a summary of the accounts and Fighting Fund is included and for year end 2021 it was £587,656 and for year end 2020 it was £706,470.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-annual-review/

The 2022 BASC annual review will be published online later this year and I will post a link after that happens.

[merseamal]

5 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

@Rewulf I have looked over the thread and I don't see any questions unanswered.

As regards BASC fighting fund the Chairman's report in the 2021 BASC annual review states the following: "BASC also deployed its newly launched Fighting Fund to counter legal and more conventional threats to shooting. The fund has been a true measure of our mettle over the period. We have beaten off legal challenges to areas from hen harrier brood management and prescribed burning on moorland, to general licences and gamebird release near protected sites. While the chief distinction of Wild Justice’s track record to date is repeated defeat, other threats exist and there is no room for complacency. Although our aim is always to resolve issues constructively, BASC remains ready to show its teeth in the face of blatant hostility, wilful ignorance and obstructiveness."

At the end of the 2021 BASC annual review is a summary of the accounts and Fighting Fund is included and for year end 2021 it was £587,656 and for year end 2020 it was £706,470.

https://basc.org.uk/basc-annual-review/

The 2022 BASC annual review will be published online later this year and I will post a link after that happens.

Thank Doc, put better than I could 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

so on my previous post I had a whole raft of questions, would you do the decency of answering them

My apologies, I've been very busy this week, work has been hectic, and what little time I've had to spend on PW, has been spent on defending myself against relentless attacks on my character. 

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

At the end of the 2021 BASC annual review is a summary of the accounts and Fighting Fund is included and for year end 2021 it was £587,656 and for year end 2020 it was £706,470

Thank you Conor, but I've already posted that information. 

Any chance of what has been spent from the fighting fund within those financial years, and what on? 

1 hour ago, merseamal said:

Fighting fund, 7 figures, reaming fighting fund is in the public accounts available to all

Forgive me, but £587, 656 doesn't appear to be 7 figures.