My thoughts on gun fitting .

[Gunman]

This is a subject that crops up time and time again .  The number of times a novice/new shooter has come to me for a fitting ,who has been sold a gun which is far " to much gun for his needs " . Who has been to shooting ground and has had a lesson , been told he needs the gun fitting and has been so wrongly advised as to what he needs , > you need at least a 3/4" on that stock . When actually the left handed stock needs casting for a right hander and its to long now <. So here's my thoughts  for the novice or inexperienced shooter .So here goes .

1 : You can not fit a gun to a man who can not shoot .

2 : You can not fit a gun to a man who will not listen .

3 : At least 70% of problems are stance , mount  and grip .

4 : Dont chop and change , stick to one cartridge ,and for those that  have a multi choke  ,put in1/4 & 1/2 chokes in and lock the rest away .

5 : Beware the man at the club esspesially if he's trying to sell you something . Every one will gladly give advice ,not all of it good .

6 : It's not the gun. It's not the cartridges / glasses / the chokes . It's you . 

7 : Some people will never be able to shoot well .Ever . Accept it .

8 :Expensive chokes and add ons will not improve your shooting, no matter what colour they are .

9 :A good instructor / gun fitter will tell you what you need , not what you want , what you think you want or what they like  .

10 : Dont be swayed by adverts ,buy basic to start , you can always up grade when you know what you are doing and know how handle a gun .

 

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Gunman

[old'un]

From what I understand most guns are made with standard stock measurement, not sure what they are right now but I would think the person of average height, build and ability could shoot most guns off the shelf.

Agreed there are people that just cannot shoot, no matter how good the fit is.

[JDog]

I believe I am no.7. After fifty years of shooting I have now reluctantly accepted it.

[marsh man]

Plenty of sound advice there Gunman , we were never in the position where we could afford to have had a gun fitted , if we bought a gun and liked it we then fitted ourselves to the gun rather the other way round , not saying we were good shots , but good enough for quite a few of various species ending up in the bag .

[old'un]

Here's a thing about gun fit, some years ago I had a nice J Lang sidelock, had a new stock made and fitted by John Harris, now try as I may I could not shoot well with this gun but with my off the shelf o/u Miroku it just felt a better fit and seemed to handle better and I shoot well with it.

I will admit I do prefer a pistol grip gun and the single barrel view of a o/u when mounted.

[Old Boggy]

5 minutes ago, JDog said:

I believe I am no.7. After fifty years of shooting I have now reluctantly accepted it.

A very self deprecating post and certainly not what I`ve heard

I, on the other hand, am a genuine No.7 but still have my moments

I also think in all seriousness, that No.2 is probably the most important.

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, good post, I wish I knew this when I started 🤔🙄

Edited August 13, 2023 by oldypigeonpopper

[oldypigeonpopper]

1 hour ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, good post, I wish I knew this when I started 🤔🙄

But I'm still a happy number 7, as for chokes  I do not have a 1/4 so will try 1/2 3/4 so maybe that would be about  1/4 1/2 with 7.5s 

Edited August 13, 2023 by oldypigeonpopper

[London Best]

1 hour ago, old&#x27;un said:

 

I will admit I do prefer the single barrel view of a o/u when mounted.

If you are properly looking at the bird you should not actually have a single barrel view. Looking at that view is disastrous for good shooting.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

This old chestnut, AGAIN!    

 

 

All too true, but you try to get people to understand any of it, took Jdog a few years.

[.357shooter]

all very true but in my case i can not do anything about my problem. left eye dominant as bad as it gets and have been told i need to shoot left handed.not going to start again now so i have taught myself to ignore what my left eye is telling me.on the bacs have a go stand the instrutor said how can you shoot like that.

[London Best]

38 minutes ago, .357shooter said:

all very true but in my case i can not do anything about my problem. left eye dominant as bad as it gets and have been told i need to shoot left handed.not going to start again now so i have taught myself to ignore what my left eye is telling me.on the bacs have a go stand the instrutor said how can you shoot like that.

You would be surprised how easy it can be to learn to shoot “wrong handed”.

Or why don’t you simply close your left eye?

[JohnfromUK]

3 hours ago, JDog said:

I believe I am no.7. After fifty years of shooting I have now reluctantly accepted it.

+1.  I have good times and bad times, the latter being more common!

[.357shooter]

40 minutes ago, London Best said:

You would be surprised how easy it can be to learn to shoot “wrong handed”.

Or why don’t you simply close your left eye?

have tried closing my left eye and i then do not pick up the birds quickly enogh to allow myself to set up the target as i need too.being a very deliberate shooter l i ke to get everything just right and shoot the same way, comes for being a rifle shooter  i think.also have to pre mount to make sure everything is in place to start.

[old'un]

2 hours ago, London Best said:

If you are properly looking at the bird you should not actually have a single barrel view. Looking at that view is disastrous for good shooting.

So that's where I am going wrong.

[Gunman]

3 hours ago, old&#x27;un said:

Here's a thing about gun fit, some years ago I had a nice J Lang sidelock, had a new stock made and fitted by John Harris, now try as I may I could not shoot well with this gun but with my off the shelf o/u Miroku it just felt a better fit and seemed to handle better and I shoot well with it.

I will admit I do prefer a pistol grip gun and the single barrel view of a o/u when mounted.

A man I knew had a gun made and stocked to his requirements . He went to 3 different shooting schools and was measured , the results co-ordinated to a mean . The gun was stocked to these measurements . He could not shoot it as well as his old " standard gun" . Trouble was when  finally analysed that the gun fit him , but he did not fit the gun having physically  adapted to his old gun. So did he have his new gun altered to that of his old one , or just have to learn to shoot all over again ?

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, Gunman said:

A man I knew had a gun made and stocked to his requirements . He went to 3 different shooting schools and was measured , the results co-ordinated to a mean . The gun was stocked to these measurements . He could not shoot it as well as his old " standard gun" . Trouble was when  finally analysed that the gun fit him , but he did not fit the gun having physically  adapted to his old gun. So did he have his new gun altered to that of his old one , or just have to learn to shoot all over again ?

Funny you should say that as when I went to John Harris for my new stock he asked me to bring a gun with me that I use regular and shot well with it, after about 15/20 minutes of me mounting the gun and him looking at me from every angle he said, right, I can see what I need to get on with your new stock.

Never asked him what he was looking for but obviously something in the way I was mounting my Miroku.

[retromlc]

No 3 is a good comment

[JohnfromUK]

39 minutes ago, Gunman said:

Trouble was when  finally analysed that the gun fit him , but he did not fit the gun having physically  adapted to his old gun.

I had an o/u (Beretta) fitted for me a long time ago.  I shot reasonably (for me) with it, but as I got older it was too heavy to use on the walked up shooting I was doing then, so I decided to get a (2nd hand) AyA sidelock.  I already had two English s/s guns - same barrel length, all 12 bores - and shot reasonably (again for me) with both and they have near identical measurements, one being very slightly longer stocked and a bit heavier, but otherwise much the same, though were both chosen because they fitted as found - rather than formally fitted.

In due course I located an older AyA No 1 that fitted my 'wishes' and was from a proper gunsmith, not just a retailer.  Deal struck included fitting gun to my needs (which was expected to be relatively minor adjustment and shortening rather than any radical changes), so I arranged a half day with the gunsmith at his ground with targets and pattern plate etc., and my two already owned English s/s.  Started with a few cartridges through my existing guns and verdict was that they were both very close to what he felt I needed - the main difference being that he thought the shorter plenty long enough and the longer a little long.

The gunsmith then altered the AyA to the chosen measurements (shortened a bit, slightly more cast (normal right shoulder) and slightly lower comb).  The trigger pulls were also matched to the (near identical) measurements of my existing guns.   I now feel comfortable with any of them (they differ slightly in balance and weight, one being significantly lighter than the other two) and I shoot very very similarly with them all.  Could I use any two as a pair without noticing?  Well no, not anyway from a critical point of view because one is a self opener, and all have slightly different feels to the opening levers, safety catches etc.  However - I do feel equally confident in all of them.

Interestingly the gunsmith (who I see fairly regularly) still thinks that they are all 'on the long side' - but agrees that is what I'm used to.  I certainly never get the gun catching as I mount it.

[enfieldspares]

9 hours ago, Gunman said:

This is a subject that crops up time and time again .  The number of times a novice/new shooter has come to me for a fitting ,who has been sold a gun which is far " to much gun for his needs " . Who has been to shooting ground and has had a lesson , been told he needs the gun fitting and has been so wrongly advised as to what he needs , > you need at least a 3/4" on that stock . When actually the left handed stock needs casting for a right hander and its to long now <. So here's my thoughts  for the novice or inexperienced shooter .So here goes .

1 : You can not fit a gun to a man who can not shoot .

Nor should gun fit be used to correct bad position or bad technique.

2 : You can not fit a gun to a man who will not listen .

3 : At least 70% of problems are stance , mount  and grip .

4 : Dont chop and change , stick to one cartridge ,and for those that  have a multi choke  ,put in1/4 & 1/2 chokes in and lock the rest away .

I'd personally say IMP and IMP for all game shooting as long as lead shot loaded cartridges remain lawful to use.

5 : Beware the man at the club esspesially if he's trying to sell you something . Every one will gladly give advice ,not all of it good .

6 : It's not the gun. It's not the cartridges / glasses / the chokes . It's you . 

Sad to say you can have too much choke and EXTRA FULL for incoming Station 1 on English Skeet isn't you it's the choke!

7 : Some people will never be able to shoot well .Ever . Accept it .

Yes. But good help from others will at least make that person hit more of the "easy" targets than they presently do. 

8 :Expensive chokes and add ons will not improve your shooting, no matter what colour they are .

9 :A good instructor / gun fitter will tell you what you need , not what you want , what you think you want or what they like  .

And a bad instructor will tell you what he has he wants to get sold or be rid of is exactly what you do want!

10 : Dont be swayed by adverts ,buy basic to start , you can always up grade when you know what you are doing and know how handle a gun .

Nor by videos on You Tube from former top level ex-clay pigeon shots!

And my 2p is to add:

Use a top quality coach when having a gun fit. When I last used them in 2015 that was back then at least IMHO Holland & Holland.

You cannot fit guns in a club house or in a gun shop. You need to fit guns where you've at least sixteen yards distance

Don't go to a gun fitting without allowing time between arrival and the fitting to relax your body and importantly "de hunch" your shoulders if you've driven there.

Where allowed plastic wads can "up" your pattern by one degree of choke as can using 1 1/16 ounce instead of 1 ounce in fibre wad.

You can almost "up" your pattern by nearly two degrees of choke by using 1 1/8 ounce rather than 1 ounce.

Low velocity loads will, again, shoot tighter patterns than will high velocity loads. Peter Hawker, or another, relates the "top hat" trick!

Edited August 13, 2023 by enfieldspares

[London Best]

7 hours ago, .357shooter said:

.also have to pre mount to make sure everything is in place to start.

Sorry, not knocking, but my opinion/experience is that if you have to pre-mount then you really can’t shoot at all.

Yes, I know they do it for certain clay disciplines.

[Dougy]

There are allot of us that are 7, im also 3.5.6. 

I can shoot the middle leg off a gnat at 500 yards with a rifle, but shotguns are so much harder, its lack of practice with me, we used to shoot skeet about 3 times a week and would keep in the mid to high 20s with the odd straight 25.  The lack of practice certainly shows. I still go out now and again and miss more tan i hit i also do a little pigeon shooting but do more pigeon scaring.

But when i get home and put the gun away, i still tell the Mrs in all honesty "i've had a good time" 

I will never shoot for England but i'd definitely compete in a competition in smiling for England,  

[London Best]

20 minutes ago, Dougy said:

 

But when i get home and put the gun away, i still tell the Mrs in all honesty "i've had a good time" 

I will never shoot for England but i'd definitely compete in a competition in smiling for England,  

And that’s the way it should be!

[.357shooter]

22 hours ago, London Best said:

Sorry, not knocking, but my opinion/experience is that if you have to pre-mount then you really can’t shoot at all.

Yes, I know they do it for certain clay disciplines.

i know i should not do it but having rather large shoulders due to weights i can not get the gun in the right spot if i bring the gun up into the shoulder.finding that pocket takes too long and i would miss the clay.

[London Best]

1 minute ago, .357shooter said:

i know i should not do it but having rather large shoulders due to weights i can not get the gun in the right spot if i bring the gun up into the shoulder.finding that pocket takes too long and i would miss the clay.

Anyone who pre-mounts can basically only shoot at clays, as that system is useless in the field. 
We all have to start somewhere, but............
Many times I have seen people who have usually had a few lessons at clays come out to try some sort of field shooting, and they expect to be able to pre-mount a gun when a shot presents itself. Obviously, it doesn’t work. (In fact, it can often be dangerous).
The poor beginner often only realises at that point that he has been taught to hit a clay, but has not actually been taught to shoot.