Oil Boiler Ban

[countryman]

Looks like oil boilers will have to go soon, we have no mains gas here, so chop down more trees and burn wood, no wait that’s a smoke ban, hopefully the government will supply a thick coat and thermal underwear to us oil boiler people. What the hell is happening to our country in the make belief of net zero.

[enfieldspares]

Yes in Lincolnshire too many many places still use oil fired central heating as there are no gas mains and the alternative is calor gas.

[Weihrauch17]

33 minutes ago, countryman said:

Looks like oil boilers will have to go soon, we have no mains gas here, so chop down more trees and burn wood, no wait that’s a smoke ban, hopefully the government will supply a thick coat and thermal underwear to us oil boiler people. What the hell is happening to our country in the make belief of net zero.

Like every single Govt policy, totally impractical.  650 woke idiots populate Parliament, they will bankrupt us all in time.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Weihrauch17

[harrycatcat1]

19 minutes ago, enfieldspares said:

Yes in Lincolnshire too many many places still use oil fired central heating as there are no gas mains and the alternative is calor gas.

Electric boiler 🤔

https://compare-electric-boilers.co.uk/?campaignname&adgroupname&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwxOymBhAFEiwAnodBLGd4uqZ4k_-igeHI5a_CmW6l9D9HhEIiaP6eVB0jN6W1qHAvTiB8jhoCxDAQAvD_BwE

Edited August 15, 2023 by harrycatcat1

[enfieldspares]

13 minutes ago, harrycatcat1 said:

Electric boiler 🤔

https://compare-electric-boilers.co.uk/?campaignname&adgroupname&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwxOymBhAFEiwAnodBLGd4uqZ4k_-igeHI5a_CmW6l9D9HhEIiaP6eVB0jN6W1qHAvTiB8jhoCxDAQAvD_BwE

Too vulnerable to power cuts is Lincolnshire from past knowledge. 

[discobob]

You will need to get yourself a Heat Pump, along with having all your ground floors ripped up to put in underfloor heating, and perhaps all your pipework to increase the size (some radiators are recommended to have a 22mm supply to them), and yep - replace radiators with bigger radiators upstairs, along with Solar panels (which won't supply you power in a power cut unless you get clever and do islanding - which may need a battery to work as well...and it also goes without saying that you might need to upgrade all your insulation around the house and also replace all your external doors and windows.

You might have change from £100K on a decent size property....

[udderlyoffroad]

Am not on mains gas, when I bought the property it was heated with electric storage heaters.

I got a grant to put in a heat pump, solar and insulation. 

As I'd never had radiators before, I didn't have to upgrade them.  There is a 22 mm flow and return pipe yes, with rads tee'd off at 15 mm, which is the same as a 'normal' modern CH system.  No underfloor heating.

Now I've yet to live a winter with the thing to see how it performs, and more to the point how much it costs to run.  But it was certainly kicking the heat out during comissioning/testing.

1 minute ago, enfieldspares said:

Too vulnerable to power cuts is Lincolnshire from past knowledge. 

As opposed to....?  Even the most ancient oil boiler needs power to operate.

Yes a woodburner doesn't need power, but 'power cuts' isn't in and of itself a reason to dismiss it.

As @discobob alludes to above, domestic generation isn't a simple case of batteries, PV and go.

Incidentally, Before I knew about the grant, I was seriously looking at putting in an oil boiler, specifically one bought from ebay from someone who'd ripped out theirs in favour of a heat pump.  I reckon I could've done my whole place including new rads for £5k assuming I did the majority of the pipework.

[discobob]

32 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Am not on mains gas, when I bought the property it was heated with electric storage heaters.

I got a grant to put in a heat pump, solar and insulation. 

As I'd never had radiators before, I didn't have to upgrade them.  There is a 22 mm flow and return pipe yes, with rads tee'd off at 15 mm, which is the same as a 'normal' modern CH system.  No underfloor heating.

Now I've yet to live a winter with the thing to see how it performs, and more to the point how much it costs to run.  But it was certainly kicking the heat out during comissioning/testing.

As opposed to....?  Even the most ancient oil boiler needs power to operate.

Yes a woodburner doesn't need power, but 'power cuts' isn't in and of itself a reason to dismiss it.

As @discobob alludes to above, domestic generation isn't a simple case of batteries, PV and go.

Incidentally, Before I knew about the grant, I was seriously looking at putting in an oil boiler, specifically one bought from ebay from someone who'd ripped out theirs in favour of a heat pump.  I reckon I could've done my whole place including new rads for £5k assuming I did the majority of the pipework.

Unfortunately we would only be eligible for the grant for the heat pump, we would have to rip out walls, floors, ceilings and tiles to up our pipe to radiators (10mm) and we have hand plastered architraves (downstairs) with a steel ridge at the bottom that would obstruct any attempts to run pipework etc... without underfloor I reckoned that we were looking at possibly 20k after the heatpump - we got a new boiler installed for £1500 (mates exceedingly good rates) that condenses and I can get running down to 45 except for when it is really cold...

[Yellow Bear]

32 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

it was certainly kicking the heat out during comissioning/testing.

I have no doubt it was when new  with an air temp of 10C plus.   I hope for your sake it will remain adequate at 0C in an old property and high wind chill, but , from experience I have my doubts.   They may work with super insulated new properties in urban conditions, but elsewhere???

WRT power cuts I have said elsewhere we get overload trips now as regular as twice a week in cold periods as the grid is of insufficient size for domestic density.  Extra load from extra properties or "green" initiatives will make it worse yet they continue to build.

 

.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, discobob said:

Unfortunately we would only be eligible for the grant for the heat pump, we would have to rip out walls, floors, ceilings and tiles to up our pipe to radiators (10mm) and we have hand plastered architraves (downstairs) with a steel ridge at the bottom that would obstruct any attempts to run pipework etc... without underfloor I reckoned that we were looking at possibly 20k after the heatpump - we got a new boiler installed for £1500 (mates exceedingly good rates) that condenses and I can get running down to 45 except for when it is really cold...

IF you can get away with a flow temperature of 45C and get the house adequately warm, you should be OK with a heat pump as they can run (depending on who you listen to) to around 55C.  Mine is condensing gas and (when I redid the whole system) was generally designed (radiator and pipe sizes, but there were some rooms where it wasn't practical) to run at a flow of 55C, and most days 50C would be OK.  Problem with a flow of 55C is that it is OK for heating except on the coldest days, but barely adequate for hot water heating and doesn't meet listeria legionaires safe temperatures (very low risk in a sealed domestic system anyway).

In practice I run a flow of around 65C and a return of 40C which gives a better warm uptime, but still full condensing (return needs to be below around 50C for condensing to operate - and lower is better). That seems a 'sweet spot' and easily warms the water in cylinder to a safe temperature.

Edited August 15, 2023 by JohnfromUK

[bigroomboy]

21 minutes ago, discobob said:

Unfortunately we would only be eligible for the grant for the heat pump, we would have to rip out walls, floors, ceilings and tiles to up our pipe to radiators (10mm) and we have hand plastered architraves (downstairs) with a steel ridge at the bottom that would obstruct any attempts to run pipework etc... without underfloor I reckoned that we were looking at possibly 20k after the heatpump - we got a new boiler installed for £1500 (mates exceedingly good rates) that condenses and I can get running down to 45 except for when it is really cold...

There is always the air to air heat pump option. You can run the refrigerant lines externally in drainpipe or through the loft. The side benefit is air con in the summer.

[udderlyoffroad]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

I have no doubt it was when new  with an air temp of 10C plus.   I hope for your sake it will remain adequate at 0C in an old property and high wind chill, but , from experience I have my doubts.   They may work with super insulated new properties in urban conditions, but elsewhere???

They've been used for years in climates far colder (and indeed warmer) than ours, there's no reason they shouldn't work.  Including retrofitting to older properties.

The issue is people pushing them as 'drop in' replacements for boilers.  They're not, any idiot doing 5mins of research could see that.  Especially not products sold in the UK that aren't suited to the UK market's...unique conditions.

But indeed, it would be unwise of me to crow before mine's had a proper 'workout'.

28 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

WRT power cuts I have said elsewhere we get overload trips now as regular as twice a week in cold periods as the grid is of insufficient size for domestic density.  Extra load from extra properties or "green" initiatives will make it worse yet they continue to build.

Certainly agree with that, lack of domestic generation capacity is and will continue to cripple us as a nation.

Only last week did a rail freight company retire its fleet of perfectly serviceable electric freight locomotives in favour of diesel, citing electricity costs!  Utter madness.

[Yellow Bear]

12 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Certainly agree with that, lack of domestic generation capacity

No point in more generation -  the distribution network is already overloaded or close to.  the further out the worse it gets.   Even without the crazy planning laws, cost, and "green" countryside protectors this is a 50 year project.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

They've been used for years in climates far colder (and indeed warmer) than ours, there's no reason they shouldn't work.  Including retrofitting to older properties.

ONE of the probable reasons so many UK adopters have trouble is this (according to the people I talked to when doing my research).  In the UK, with a normally quite moderate climate, it is usual to have the heating (radiators) on for a period morning and again for a (usually longer) period in the evening.  It might be on longer at weekends, or if someone is at home all day.  Boilers, with their fast warm up and high flow temperature can respond quickly and work reasonably well under these types of operation.

Heatpumps with relatively slower warm up and a lower flow temperature need to be on for longer and are slower to warm the rooms, so they are better suited to being on continuously.  This is more common in colder climates. 

As I mentioned above - when I re did my whole system, I did all the calculations of the house on a 'room by room' basis - and sized each radiator for a 55 degree flow temperature.  This works fine on milder days and can keep the house on temperature under most conditions steady state, but it is slow to get up to temperature.  Radiator output (KW of heat to room) goes up markedly with flow temperature and 65C gives a much faster warm up.

My radiators, pipework etc. should operate OK with a heatpump - but it would have to be on a lot longer and would need to be capable of delivering water at 50C and have a steady state capacity of around 35KW.  Those are quite challenging (read doable but expensive) for a heatpump.

[old man]

2 hours ago, countryman said:

Looks like oil boilers will have to go soon, we have no mains gas here, so chop down more trees and burn wood, no wait that’s a smoke ban, hopefully the government will supply a thick coat and thermal underwear to us oil boiler people. What the hell is happening to our country in the make belief of net zero.

Sadly the idiots driving this really don't give a flying fig, solely because it will not affect them in any way on  a personal basis?

[discobob]

For me it is the replacing 10mm with 15mm pipe work to get the flow levels (I watch Urban Plumber on YT - hence I ended up with Intergas in case I want to add a tank if we go solar - although he has now gone full heat pump on his content - but he is fitting a DAIKIN(?) hybrid system to his own house which is an old property - which is based on Intergas as well)

3 rooms with hand plastered coving and a further 1 with tiles  and all walls are sand and cement solid - 2 further radiators whose feed runs under tiled floor upstairs - on top of joists.

upstairs we have 3 rooms with tiling which would need ripping out..

And a wife whose mantra is "I can't be doing with the mess"

 

[enfieldspares]

17 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 

As opposed to....?  Even the most ancient oil boiler needs power to operate.

 

Yes. My apologies you are right! 

However the advantage with oil as against electricity is and was that with oil you could shop around between suppliers much much easier than you can swap electricity suppliers as simply with oil it was just a matter of the week before you needed the tank filling 'phoning around the local oil merchants for the best price on the day.

16 hours ago, old man said:

Sadly the idiots driving this really don't give a flying fig, solely because it will not affect them in any way on  a personal basis?

Yes. The Carrie "Princess Nut Nuts" Johnson and Lord Zac Goldsmith clique (the man who was against the EU as it was governed by unelected politicians who were in power without anybody voting for them...who then having been voted out as an MP then accepts a seat in the unelected House of Lords) won't ever have a worry about their energy bills.

Edited August 16, 2023 by enfieldspares

[udderlyoffroad]

15 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

In the UK, with a normally quite moderate climate, it is usual to have the heating (radiators) on for a period morning and again for a (usually longer) period in the evening.  It might be on longer at weekends, or if someone is at home all day.  Boilers, with their fast warm up and high flow temperature can respond quickly and work reasonably well under these types of operation.

Heatpumps with relatively slower warm up and a lower flow temperature need to be on for longer and are slower to warm the rooms, so they are better suited to being on continuously.  This is more common in colder climates. 

To be honest, having lived in other countries, this is a uniquely British 'inverted snobbery' problem.  We think it's somehow an unnecessary luxury to have a warm house in winter.  The rest of the developed world -not just the cold parts - lets the thermostats manage the temperature and the heating comes on when required - and this for more conventional boilers as well as heat pumps.

There's countless debates as to whether this is more energy efficient (the thermal mass of the house, ambient temps, etc).  But maybe its worth considering the other option when it's you vs the rest of the world.

[Krico woodcock]

Maybe a stupid question,  can you buy a replacement boiler before the ban comes in, and you will have one when ever your old boiler needs replacing, be it 1 year after ban, or 10 years after ban??

[discobob]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There's countless debates as to whether this is more energy efficient (the thermal mass of the house, ambient temps, etc).  But maybe its worth considering the other option when it's you vs the rest of the world.

We have a lot of solid block walls in our house (20 years old) so has a larger thermal mass to get the heat in. With the new boiler and smart thermostats I plan to manage the temperature of the house much better this year - If only I can get the wife to shut the backdoor and keep the windows closed 😞

We noticed the difference when we sorted out what tradesmen had previously done in the attic last year - replaced (or rather added) PIR under flooring sheets and redone insulation in parts. It has also benefited the house in Summer keeping upstairs a lot cooler in the warm weather (not that we have had much). I am considering adding an extra 100mm to bring it to 400mm but as a big lad there are some very tight spaces to get into/though to areas that need doing

14 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

Maybe a stupid question,  can you buy a replacement boiler before the ban comes in, and you will have one when ever your old boiler needs replacing, be it 1 year after ban, or 10 years after ban??

yes

edited to clarify - 2035 is the ban on new boiler sales (currently)

Edited August 16, 2023 by discobob

[alan123shooting]

I’m replacing my oil boiler next year, I’m making sure that it will be able to run on HVO( Hydrotreated veg oil, this a possible way forward as it produces 90% less emissions they are running tests at the moment, and existing boilers could be converted for about £500- 1000. A mate  who is a surveyor for new build properties, his opinion is air heat source pumps for older properties is total waste of money , they are not efficient and  too expensive to run. 

 

[Yellow Bear]

1 hour ago, udderlyoffroad said:

There's countless debates as to whether this is more energy efficient (the thermal mass of the house, ambient temps, etc)

The perceived wisdom is to not let the maintained area drop below 14C and to manage the temperature in served areas at a level in line with ongoing activity at the time.  Warm up time (about 30m) should be allowed but 16C is adequate in active/transient areas and 18/20C where sedentary tasks are in progress.  Temp in relaxation areas is the main debate.

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, alan123shooting said:

and  too expensive to run.

The thing causing that is that (per KWh) electricity is roughly 3x the price of gas (or oil) per KWh. 

I think the 'risk' is that Gov't will step in (by manipulating the market) and effectively make oil and gas subsidise electricity, which will force up oil and gas prices (additional 'carbon' taxes) and push them up to nearer electricity.

No one knows if this will happen, or how it might happen, but it makes planning the next heating source (oil, gas, heat-pump etc.) a task which has uncertain key driving inputs.

[udderlyoffroad]

1 hour ago, Krico woodcock said:

Maybe a stupid question,  can you buy a replacement boiler before the ban comes in, and you will have one when ever your old boiler needs replacing, be it 1 year after ban, or 10 years after ban??

A boiler, sitting unused on a pallet in your garage for 5+ years is not a good idea.  Entropy will naturally occur.  Good luck getting warranties honoured.

48 minutes ago, alan123shooting said:

A mate  who is a surveyor for new build properties, his opinion is air heat source pumps for older properties is total waste of money , they are not efficient and  too expensive to run. 

I'm with you on expensive to run - though I'd suggest that's more due our absurd energy policy/market - but not efficient?  I think he means not cost effective.  They are incredibly efficient.  But we'll forgive him, having to survey the absolute garbage UK house builders pump out.  Gotta fry your brain.  😁

45 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I think the 'risk' is that Gov't will step in (by manipulating the market) and effectively make oil and gas subsidise electricity, which will force up oil and gas prices (additional 'carbon' taxes) and push them up to nearer electricity.

No one knows if this will happen, or how it might happen, but it makes planning the next heating source (oil, gas, heat-pump etc.) a task which has uncertain key driving inputs.

Indeed, the solution apparently is more government meddling. 

This on a day where wind power is producing (checks notes) 0.3 % of the total demand, whereas we're buying 7% from France!

[McSpredder]

At present most UK residents have more than one energy source for heating and cooking.   If electricity is cut off, they use mains gas, bottled gas, oil, coal, wood, etc, but all of those are to be discouraged, possibly banned, in the near future.   Here are three questions to ask of sitting or would-be MPs.

Has your party published any recommendations for heating and cooking in the event of a prolonged electricity power cut?

Has your party made any estimate of the numbers that might die from hypothermia in the event of a power cut lasting several days, as many thousands of people experienced during Storm Arwen?

Does your party expect prolonged electricity power cuts to be become more frequent in future as a result of climate change?