BASC tips on home loading your own shotgun cartridges

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, mellors said:

I don't think it counts as feed back. He obviously hasn't got a clue what's going on. Just fill a page with something that is almost impossible to do now. Powder and wads are not available and what there is sellers up the price regularly even though there's been no deliveries for months. 

I'm not a usual suspect and also am a member since wagbi then on to basc and I'll tell you I'm more than disappointed with with your lack of action and answers. 

 

What more can I do other than pass the feedback on for consideration of a follow-up article?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Gordon R said:

 

Quote

Thanks. What was it like completing the HSE online survey? How long did it take? Is there any advice you could give to those considering submitting a response? Would you consider encouraging all the target shoots you are a member of to complete a response? 

Had you completed these yourself - you should already know. Do you ever read what you write?

Sorry Gordon but you are not being helpful with the personal comments and this keeps happening with you wading into discussions between other PW members. Do you honestly think I have not been through the online survey when I am writing articles in the sporting press and online and sending out emails to members about the consultation. I don't feel like you have any interest in these and other policy issues other than to cause division. Perhaps that's not your intention but it's how it comes across and you might reflect on that.

[Conor O'Gorman]

47 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Smaller calibres, air and rimfire will fair worse, a lead ban on 22lr will kill hundreds of small bore clubs, but BASC doesnt seem remotely interested in this, its rarely mentioned in BASC press releases, which confirm this.

BASC has considered all the shooting disciplines in its response to last year's HSE consultation and will do so again in response to this year's consultation. That said I take on board your feedback and agree we could do more on the specific disciplines as stand alone articles etc. However, the interest levels in this consultation remain low, there is a lot going on in other areas, and our collective apathy as a community is perhaps our greatest enemy. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

Perhaps that's not your intention but it's how it comes across and you might reflect on that.

Perhaps you should reflect. You have asked Rewulf and myself if we have completed surveys, but you don't know how long they take. What was the purpose in asking Rewulf and I? I did complete them, as did Rewulf.

You come across to me as evasive and seem incapable of answering a straight question. Perhaps the media is not for you.

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC has considered all the shooting disciplines in its response to last year's HSE consultation and will do so again in response to this year's consultation. That said I take on board your feedback and agree we could do more on the specific disciplines as stand alone articles etc. However, the interest levels in this consultation remain low, there is a lot going on in other areas, and our collective apathy as a community is perhaps our greatest enemy. 

BASC has what some 150000 members ?
Why dont you entice this membership to some kind of online or written poll , as it would seem obvious that many of them find doing the HSE consultation a little too much ?
This could be used as extra clout when it comes to any decision making in the future ?

Like Ive said, it takes less than 5 minutes, even with comments on various aspects, but some may find it intimidating when it comes to filling the form out>
It may be most may consider it a waste of time, as the HSE , and most definitely BASC , have already decided what is happening in the short term. They may well be right.
However, I do believe that if a pathetically small number of returns are registered, the HSE will use this as a premise that no one really cares about lead ammunition, and do whatever they like.

I think BASC could do more, but they need to clarify the message, and stop making contradictory comments.

[sitsinhedges]

It's ironic that making our own lead shot is what makes reloading shotgun cartridges a viable proposition. Not for much longer now thanks to basc.

[mellors]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

What more can I do other than pass the feedback on for consideration of a follow-up article?

I would have thought if he researched or knew anything about reloading the article would not have appeared. 

The only follow up would be sorry i got it wrong. 

Unless you can persuade the cartridge manufacturers to share there powder and bio wads but that won't happen. 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

BASC has what some 150000 members ?
Why dont you entice this membership to some kind of online or written poll , as it would seem obvious that many of them find doing the HSE consultation a little too much ?
This could be used as extra clout when it comes to any decision making in the future ?

Like Ive said, it takes less than 5 minutes, even with comments on various aspects, but some may find it intimidating when it comes to filling the form out>
It may be most may consider it a waste of time, as the HSE , and most definitely BASC , have already decided what is happening in the short term. They may well be right.
However, I do believe that if a pathetically small number of returns are registered, the HSE will use this as a premise that no one really cares about lead ammunition, and do whatever they like.

I think BASC could do more, but they need to clarify the message, and stop making contradictory comments.

Thanks for this. The HSE will consider formal responses via the online form. These individual responses carry more weight in terms of processing time compared to a single web poll etc. My estimate from BASC comms to its members so far is that we are at around 1,600 responses. The 2,667 responses to last year's HSE consultation resulted in almost 9 months delay in the review.  These are small numbers in the greater scheme of things but it is what it is and we will keep encouraging people to respond up to the 10 December deadline.

3 minutes ago, mellors said:

I would have thought if he researched or knew anything about reloading the article would not have appeared. 

The only follow up would be sorry i got it wrong. 

Unless you can persuade the cartridge manufacturers to share there powder and bio wads but that won't happen. 

 

Thanks, I will pass that on.

1 hour ago, sitsinhedges said:

It's ironic that making our own lead shot is what makes reloading shotgun cartridges a viable proposition. Not for much longer now thanks to basc.

Why do you say 'not for much longer thanks to basc'?

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

What was the purpose in asking Rewulf and I? I did complete them, as did Rewulf.

Thanks for completing the survey. I think it helps to share experiences - many on PW have yet to respond to the survey and will be reading these posts. May I ask what were the key points you made in your response to the current HSE consultation? Did you make general comments and/or did you answer any of the specific questions? Would you consider encouraging everyone you shoot with to complete the survey response form?

[Dave at kelton]

58 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for completing the survey. I think it helps to share experiences - many on PW have yet to respond to the survey and will be reading these posts. May I ask what were the key points you made in your response to the current HSE consultation? Did you make general comments and/or did you answer any of the specific questions? Would you consider encouraging everyone you shoot with to complete the survey response form?

I answered it. Took about five minutes. My main point was that any sort of restriction before suitable, effective, and equivalent cost alternatives were available was premature. This was particularly pertinent to small bores I.e. smaller than 12 bore.  Yes I would encourage everyone to complete!!!

[holloway]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Sorry Gordon but you are not being helpful with the personal comments and this keeps happening with you wading into discussions between other PW members. Do you honestly think I have not been through the online survey when I am writing articles in the sporting press and online and sending out emails to members about the consultation. I don't feel like you have any interest in these and other policy issues other than to cause division. Perhaps that's not your intention but it's how it comes across and you might reflect on that.

An accurate assessment from what i've read .

[Gordon R]

holloway - I trust you have read through all the posts.

Conor asks the very same questions of Rewulf and myself, but no-one else. Why is that? 

Why does he ask how long it takes to fill in a survey, when he doesn't appear to know himself. He evaded a direct question. 

I have as much an interest as any shooter in whether lead is banned. Conor seems to think he has the monopoly on that, despite many pointing out that BASC seem to be trying to usher a ban in. 

Are all those who disagree with BASC subject to your comments? If not, why not?

Conor has made a number of comments about Rewulf on this and other threads. Will you condemn those? 

I suspect not, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait.

[Centrepin]

10 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for completing the survey. I think it helps to share experiences - many on PW have yet to respond to the survey and will be reading these posts. May I ask what were the key points you made in your response to the current HSE consultation? Did you make general comments and/or did you answer any of the specific questions? Would you consider encouraging everyone you shoot with to complete the survey response form?

Many like me, may have completed the survey, asked others if they have heard about it but not found it necessary to take up space by posting. It takes as long as it takes to type your response.

I'm fully aware that steel is going to be forced upon us regardless of our opinions, however I'm concerned that smaller calibres like .410 & .22 will dissappear as will clay shooting eventually.

This is the first step in stopping shooting forever or making it just for the rich.

How long before we can wall hang all shotguns as obsolete?

[London Best]

1 hour ago, Centrepin said:

 

I'm fully aware that steel is going to be forced upon us regardless of our opinions, however I'm concerned that smaller calibres like .410 & .22 will dissappear as will clay shooting eventually.

This is the first step in stopping shooting forever or making it just for the rich

Why would you think that? 
The Danes have been shooting clays with steel for forty years, and game for thirty years. The old boys have become converted and the new generation know nothing else.

[Rewulf]

19 minutes ago, London Best said:

Why would you think that? 
The Danes have been shooting clays with steel for forty years, and game for thirty years. The old boys have become converted and the new generation know nothing else.

I suspect you are referring to this article https://sporting-gun.com/article/life-without-lead-the-danish-perspective

Where a Danish game shooting hack extols the virtues of steel, and tells you that it can be used in any non steel proofed gun.

It's interesting that when Danish clay shooters, who have to train with steel, are forced to use lead in international competitions ?

I couldn't find the stats , but I suspect that clay shooting isn't as popular in Denmark as the UK, however they still have pistols and semi auto centrefire rifles, I wonder how they will cope going lead free ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

On Denmark, there is a detailed research paper on their move away from lead shot as follows:

Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675819/

They have also recently introduced a ban on using lead centrefire ammunition for hunting.

The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain.

[Bernard]

56 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

On Denmark, there is a detailed research paper on their move away from lead shot as follows:

Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675819/

They have also recently introduced a ban on using lead centrefire ammunition for hunting.

The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain.

Thanks for sharing that. There’s an interesting line in the study you shared about stimulating non plastic component development and plastic waste consequences. As BASC are dipping a toe into shotgun cartridge reloading is there no industry consultation that can be used to influence the reloader’s availability of components? I have contacted every non - Hydro / soluble (handling and storage issues make these type difficult for hobbyists)  but still bio wad manufacturer and there are no plans to make components available to the hand loader. Hand loader access to items like the B&P green core or Gamebore’s equivilant would be a gigantic leap forward for the reloader.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Bernard

[rbrowning2]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

On Denmark, there is a detailed research paper on their move away from lead shot as follows:

Lessons learned from 33 years of lead shot regulation in Denmark

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675819/

They have also recently introduced a ban on using lead centrefire ammunition for hunting.

The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain.

Conor not got time to read it all yet, but hopefully it included the plastic wad pollution issues Denmark now has.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749117351424

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

The Danish hunters are fighting the EU lead ban proposals as are BASC and all other FACE members across Europe for all the same reasons that BASC is fighting the HSE ban proposals for Great Britain.

This is an example of the contradictory stance BASC seems have taken.
How can BASC be fighting the HSE proposals for lead shot when it proposed them itself ?

Yes , I know you proposed lead shot for live quarry / phase out over 5 years ect, but in what way shape or form did you not think this would impact clay shooting , and eventually all lead ammo ?
If lead is such a terrible threat to human and animal life, a theory you whole heartedly NOW support, how can a total lead ammunition ban be avoided for any meaningful length of time ?
You say , look at Denmark , they have managed OK with steel, but now they are getting the lead ban in totality.
And so will we.

The stance is not to say, 'Ban this , but dont ban this use of it' If youre banning a substance because you agree its  dangerous, then its going to get banned !

I really cant see how BASC couldnt see this coming, or could they ?

There are 18 months left of BASCs 5 year peace treaty that hoped to pacify UK gov into not completely destroying the shooting industry.
I suspect lead will be banned for live quarry shooting on or shortly after that time, clay shooting with lead may be given a longer period of grace, but lead bullets and pellets over all aspects days are also numbered.

You need only to look at Denmarks journey, and see where it leads.

3 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Conor not got time to read it all yet, but hopefully it included the plastic wad pollution issues Denmark now has.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749117351424

When you cant ban shooting for one reason , you need to think of another ?

[rbrowning2]

19 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

This and to deal with the issue of homeloading. Most clay grounds prohibit homeloaded ammunition and many syndicates and commercial shoots also do so. CPSA rules prohibit it totally on any registered event.

CPSA Rules:

AMMUNITION

2.50 Home load, black powder and tracer cartridges may not be used. The Referee may at any time take unfired cartridge(s) out of a shooter’s gun for examination and analysis. Any competitor found using prohibited cartridge(s) will be liable to disqualification.

Never read in any clay ground rules that homeloads are prohibited, never been asked what cartridges i am using other than must be fibre wads.
You say most, please provide an example ground where they state no homeloads.
Likewise on the couple of days a season I shoot on a commercial game shoots, never been asked, had other guns comment on their excellent efficacy.

Yes CPSA rules ban them for registered competitions to ensure in theory no cheating, and to support the cartridge manufactures. 
In the USA no such restrictions.

Edited November 7, 2023 by rbrowning2

[Gordon R]

I am aware of the ban on home loads in CPSA registered competitions, but have never encountered a ground where the matter was raised. As stated - many have signs up for fibre wads only, but never seen anything about home loads.

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, Bernard said:

Thanks for sharing that. There’s an interesting line in the study you shared about stimulating non plastic component development and plastic waste consequences. As BASC are dipping a toe into shotgun cartridge reloading is there no industry consultation that can be used to influence the reloader’s availability of components? I have contacted every non - Hydro / soluble (handling and storage issues make these type difficult for hobbyists)  but still bio wad manufacturer and there are no plans to make components available to the hand loader. Hand loader access to items like the B&P green core or Gamebore’s equivilant would be a gigantic leap forward for the reloader.

I have checked with colleagues and there are fibre shot cups available (for all shot types including steel shot) and whilst not yet available for all gauges we expect that this will change over time. 

See for example weblink below:

https://www.claygame.co.uk/search?q=fibre+shot+cup

On the wider points we are aware that all manufacturers/assemblers are short of components and that is outside our control.

[holloway]

14 hours ago, Gordon R said:

holloway - I trust you have read through all the posts.

Conor asks the very same questions of Rewulf and myself, but no-one else. Why is that? 

Why does he ask how long it takes to fill in a survey, when he doesn't appear to know himself. He evaded a direct question. 

I have as much an interest as any shooter in whether lead is banned. Conor seems to think he has the monopoly on that, despite many pointing out that BASC seem to be trying to usher a ban in. 

Are all those who disagree with BASC subject to your comments? If not, why not?

Conor has made a number of comments about Rewulf on this and other threads. Will you condemn those? 

I suspect not, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait.

Conor is doing an exceptional job under difficult conditions, not many would have his patience .

[wymberley]

17 minutes ago, holloway said:

Conor is doing an exceptional job under difficult conditions, not many would have his patience .

Funnily enough, exactly the same comment was made about another BASC staff member who posted quite frequently. Why on earth should it be difficult to come on to a shooting forum and talk about shooting to a load of folk whose main pleasure in life comes from..... well......shooting?

[Gordon R]

holloway - I note your reluctance to account for your postings. However, life is too short and I will leave it there.