BASC sustainable ammo table - shotgun cartridges

[Conor O'Gorman]

As discussed in other threads BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals and together with other organisations we continue to support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

BASC is publishing updates on its website on a list of alternatives to lead ammunition for shotguns, rifles and airguns at https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/

The latest list for shotgun cartridges using non-lead shot and non-plastic wads are available in the following downloadable table:

https://basc.org.uk/download/353056/
 

[Old farrier]

Thank you for the information great choice if you shoot a 12 bore and if there’s any available 

3choices if you shoot a 4.10 bismuth bismuth and bismuth and only in a 3 inch case at £1365 a thousand that’s cheap rat shooting 🙄

nothing for 9 mm garden gun 

nothing for 2.1/2 4.10 

if these caliber guns are made obsolete by this proposal it’s pretty obvious that the minority of people who use them are being blatantly discriminated against by the manufacturers the policymakers and the lack of representation by the organisations failing to protect their minority members 

[Weihrauch17]

50 minutes ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

As discussed in other threads BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals and together with other organisations we continue to support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

BASC is publishing updates on its website on a list of alternatives to lead ammunition for shotguns, rifles and airguns at https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/

The latest list for shotgun cartridges using non-lead shot and non-plastic wads are available in the following downloadable table:

https://basc.org.uk/download/353056/
 

And there was me thinking you had all signed up for a ban on the back of absolutely nothing.  None of you deserve to exist.

[Centrepin]

[harkom]

9 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

And there was me thinking you had all signed up for a ban on the back of absolutely nothing.  None of you deserve to exist.

😂

[mellors]

11 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

And there was me thinking you had all signed up for a ban on the back of absolutely nothing.  None of you deserve to exist.

It's looking highly likey they won't they seem to take it for granted we'll keep paying there wages, pensions and expenses no matter what THEY decide to do. 

I appreciate is its inevitable now but WE should have had the chance to say  NO. 

 

[Smudger687]

13 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

As discussed in other threads BASC is opposed to the HSE lead ban proposals and together with other organisations we continue to support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics in shotgun ammunition for live quarry shooting.

BASC is publishing updates on its website on a list of alternatives to lead ammunition for shotguns, rifles and airguns at https://basc.org.uk/ammunition/

The latest list for shotgun cartridges using non-lead shot and non-plastic wads are available in the following downloadable table:

https://basc.org.uk/download/353056/
 

Bioammo, Lyalvale's greencore/earthcore, Hull's hydrowad and B&P's greencore wads are not biodegradeable. BASC has been made aware of this (by myself), and it's disappointing that they continue to be marketed improperly. 

Unless BASC has seen any evidence of their biodegradeability under real-world conditions (especially in marine environments), I would encourage you to stop including them on lists such as these.

I don't believe BASC realised how difficult it would be for manufacturers to find genuinely biodegradeable wads. It feels like BASC is all too willing to turn a blind eye to this problem in order to save face in how poorly they handled the lead shot/single-use plastic fiasco. Is there any truth to this, Conor?

 

[Peter Harris]

I will be interested in seeing Conor's reply to the above post!

Interestingly , what will happen to BASC when we have all been forced to give up our guns and countrysports????????

[Scully]

Eley are the only biodegradable was I have experience of; couple of weeks at the most and they’re gone. 

[jall25]

11 minutes ago, Peter Harris said:

I will be interested in seeing Conor's reply to the above post!

Interestingly , what will happen to BASC when we have all been forced to give up our guns and countrysports????????

Unless we all stop moaning and whinging and get on the same page that is what will happen

Anyone that is not happy with BASC has the chance now to become a council member and help guide for the future

 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Anyone that is not happy with BASC has the chance now to become a council member and help guide for the future

Anyone? Are you being serious? 

[Scully]

14 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Unless we all stop moaning and whinging and get on the same page that is what will happen

Anyone that is not happy with BASC has the chance now to become a council member and help guide for the future

 

😂

[Peter Harris]

jall25 ,

With over 40 years of involvement with BASC I can assure you I am NOT a moaner .

But experiencing the manoeuvering of John Swift and DR.John Harradine  over this Lead shot fiasco has left me sceptical as to whether BASC are really representing the shooting community effectively.

As I have pointed out on various occasions there are far more harmful components being distributed into the environment than a naturally occurring item such as Lead .

Perhaps we should focus first upon Plastics and Polymers?

[Poor Shot]

1 hour ago, Smudger687 said:

Bioammo, Lyalvale's greencore/earthcore, Hull's hydrowad and B&P's greencore wads are not biodegradeable. BASC has been made aware of this (by myself), and it's disappointing that they continue to be marketed improperly. 

Unless BASC has seen any evidence of their biodegradeability under real-world conditions (especially in marine environments), I would encourage you to stop including them on lists such as these.

I don't believe BASC realised how difficult it would be for manufacturers to find genuinely biodegradeable wads. It feels like BASC is all too willing to turn a blind eye to this problem in order to save face in how poorly they handled the lead shot/single-use plastic fiasco. Is there any truth to this, Conor?

 

What are specifications of the Biodegradable term? Are these simply expectations by the user that the WAD will completely disappear within a short timescale or are there specific guidance as to what qualifies as biodegradable? 

Lets not forget that felt wads and overpowder cards aren't exactly short term biodegradable in every scenario in which they are used. Take a walk around a fibre only clay ground and it's not uncommon to see fibre wads that have been in situ for a long time if they end up somewhere dry and out of direct sunlight (under trees, hedges, thick brush etc). 

 

[Smudger687]

Just now, Poor Shot said:

What are specifications of the Biodegradable term? Are these simply expectations by the user that the WAD will completely disappear within a short timescale or are there specific guidance as to what qualifies as biodegradable? 

Lets not forget that felt wads and overpowder cards aren't exactly short term biodegradable in every scenario in which they are used. Take a walk around a fibre only clay ground and it's not uncommon to see fibre wads that have been in situ for a long time if they end up somewhere dry and out of direct sunlight (under trees, hedges, thick brush etc). 

 

Not 100% sure on a formal definition for biodegradeability, but the aforementioned wads are PLA based, which behaves no differently to HDPE under normal conditions. 

[Poor Shot]

20 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

Not 100% sure on a formal definition for biodegradeability, but the aforementioned wads are PLA based, which behaves no differently to HDPE under normal conditions. 

As it turns out, the specific definition of biodegradable in reference to plastic materials is that the material will breakdown under its own devices when left to nature, no timescale mentioned. Compostable is defined roughly as a material breaking down when subjected to an industrial composting process (controlled heat, humidity, O2 and temperature plus the introduction of specific microorganisms). 

PLA is, in some cases, determined to be biodegradable as it breaks down completely (fully degraded into its component materials, lactic acid etc) naturally in span of up to 80 years. 

Its not ideal but up to 80 years compared to the hundreds, if not thousands of years that an HDPE wad would take to breakdown is a step in the right direction. 

As an aside, have Hull not changed the wad material to a water soluble material rather than a bio degradable or compostable material similar to the EcoWad used by Eley? I have noticed that the terminology on the cartridge box has changed from BioWad to HydroWad.  

I have a Gamebore wad collected from some very rain soaked pattern testing I did on the weekend. Within the time it took from firing to collection (2-3 mins) it had become quite malleable and sticky to the touch. I have thrown it into the hedge in the garden and I will check up on it in a few days. 

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 hours ago, mellors said:

It's looking highly likey they won't they seem to take it for granted we'll keep paying there wages, pensions and expenses no matter what THEY decide to do. 

I appreciate is its inevitable now but WE should have had the chance to say  NO. 

 

The HSE is proposing lead ban proposals, not BASC. You have your chance to say no to these proposals. Click the link below for advice on how to do so.

https://basc.org.uk/new-consultation-launched-on-lead-ammunition/

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

Bioammo, Lyalvale's greencore/earthcore, Hull's hydrowad and B&P's greencore wads are not biodegradeable. BASC has been made aware of this (by myself), and it's disappointing that they continue to be marketed improperly. 

Unless BASC has seen any evidence of their biodegradeability under real-world conditions (especially in marine environments), I would encourage you to stop including them on lists such as these.

I don't believe BASC realised how difficult it would be for manufacturers to find genuinely biodegradeable wads. It feels like BASC is all too willing to turn a blind eye to this problem in order to save face in how poorly they handled the lead shot/single-use plastic fiasco. Is there any truth to this, Conor?

 

Thanks, I will pass your feedback on the wads to colleagues.

As regards your question to me directly, there is no truth in that. If you have not been already maybe come along to one of BASC's sustainable shooting days and talk directly to staff and cartridge company reps with your queries and concerns and try out some of the products available. See BASC events pages for events. New products are constantly coming along and that will continue in the years ahead. The key issue is to avoid a legislative cliff edge and that has been successfully averted thus far but more work to do with regard to the latest HSE lead ban proposals.

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

I have a Gamebore wad collected from some very rain soaked pattern testing I did on the weekend. Within the time it took from firing to collection (2-3 mins) it had become quite malleable and sticky to the touch. I have thrown it into the hedge in the garden and I will check up on it in a few days. 

I wonder how that would act if the cartridge got damp?

Edited November 8, 2023 by Penelope

[Poor Shot]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

I wonder how that would act if the cartridge got damp?

I should clarify that the pattern testing was carried out during what can only be described as a complete deluge. The wad was thoroughly soaked by the time I got to it. 

That particular cartridge had been in my fowling cartridge belt for most of last season and this one in which I experienced more than a few soakings. The barrel appeared to be clean after firing with no sign of the shot breaching the wad material. I'd say that it's had more than enough exposure to conditions in which a cartridge could get damp than I would reasonably expect a manufacturer would design for and was fine. 

I did drop one in the sea a few weeks back but I couldn't retrieve it which is a shame. It would have been useful to leave it to one side for a few weeks and inspect the wad and shot and see if the wad had degraded or the shot corroded at all. 

[Down South]

Conor, the tables are interesting if you are a 12 bore user and helpful if you use a 20. Any other calibres and it’s worrying reading as the only shot alternative is expensive bismuth. Small bore shooters are being completely ignored by cartridge producers when it comes to steel. I have been loading my own steel  for 16 bore for some time but have run out of components and replacements are not available. I still have lead and will carry on using it until the lights go out on it’s use.

I’ve completed this consultation and many others and have pointed this out to the HSE for all it’s worth. Will the BASC be lobbying cartridge manufacturers to support small bore shooters? I live in hope.

[Smudger687]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks, I will pass your feedback on the wads to colleagues.

As regards your question to me directly, there is no truth in that. If you have not been already maybe come along to one of BASC's sustainable shooting days and talk directly to staff and cartridge company reps with your queries and concerns and try out some of the products available. See BASC events pages for events. New products are constantly coming along and that will continue in the years ahead. The key issue is to avoid a legislative cliff edge and that has been successfully averted thus far but more work to do with regard to the latest HSE lead ban proposals.

Funny you should mention that - I was at Ower shooting club recently where a BASC representative had laid out a series of biowad cartridge offerings. When I pointed out that the Hull, bioammo and lyalvale wads did not biodegrade under natural conditions, she agreed and said they needed to be composted. In other words, she knew that some of the products she was supposed to advertise as biodegradeable in fact were not, and yet she pressed ahead anyway, almost certainly under BASC's orders.

Again, this does not give me confidence that BASC are acting in good faith - you called for a ban on lead and single use plastics, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears when the products you called for don't meet expectations.

3 hours ago, Poor Shot said:

As it turns out, the specific definition of biodegradable in reference to plastic materials is that the material will breakdown under its own devices when left to nature, no timescale mentioned. Compostable is defined roughly as a material breaking down when subjected to an industrial composting process (controlled heat, humidity, O2 and temperature plus the introduction of specific microorganisms). 

PLA is, in some cases, determined to be biodegradable as it breaks down completely (fully degraded into its component materials, lactic acid etc) naturally in span of up to 80 years. 

Its not ideal but up to 80 years compared to the hundreds, if not thousands of years that an HDPE wad would take to breakdown is a step in the right direction. 

As an aside, have Hull not changed the wad material to a water soluble material rather than a bio degradable or compostable material similar to the EcoWad used by Eley? I have noticed that the terminology on the cartridge box has changed from BioWad to HydroWad.  

I have a Gamebore wad collected from some very rain soaked pattern testing I did on the weekend. Within the time it took from firing to collection (2-3 mins) it had become quite malleable and sticky to the touch. I have thrown it into the hedge in the garden and I will check up on it in a few days. 

PLA breakdown is highly dependent on the environment it finds itself in, as the organisms capable of digesting PLA are not widely distributed throughout the planet - eg PLA exhibits no discernable breakdown in marine environments due to the near complete absence of fungi.

Hull's hydrowad is a complete red herring, it's not water soluble as far as I am aware. They buy most of their components (as do lyalvale) from B&P, so I suspect it's simply a rebranded greencore wad. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Smudger687

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, Poor Shot said:

I should clarify that the pattern testing was carried out during what can only be described as a complete deluge. The wad was thoroughly soaked by the time I got to it. 

That particular cartridge had been in my fowling cartridge belt for most of last season and this one in which I experienced more than a few soakings. The barrel appeared to be clean after firing with no sign of the shot breaching the wad material. I'd say that it's had more than enough exposure to conditions in which a cartridge could get damp than I would reasonably expect a manufacturer would design for and was fine. 

I did drop one in the sea a few weeks back but I couldn't retrieve it which is a shame. It would have been useful to leave it to one side for a few weeks and inspect the wad and shot and see if the wad had degraded or the shot corroded at all. 

Thank you for your concise reply. Very informative.

[Poor Shot]

17 minutes ago, Smudger687 said:

Funny you should mention that - I was at Ower shooting club recently where a BASC representative had laid out a series of biowad cartridge offerings. When I pointed out that the Hull, bioammo and lyalvale wads did not biodegrade under natural conditions, she agreed and said they needed to be composted. In other words, she knew that some of the products she was supposed to advertise as biodegradeable in fact were not, and yet she pressed ahead anyway, almost certainly under BASC's orders.

Again, this does not give me confidence that BASC are acting in good faith - you called for a ban on lead and single use plastics, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears when the products you called for don't meet expectations.

PLA breakdown is highly dependent on the environment it finds itself in, as the organisms capable of digesting PLA are not widely distributed throughout the planet - eg PLA exhibits no discernable breakdown in marine environments due to the near complete absence of fungi.

Hull's hydrowad is a complete red-herring, it's not water soluble as far as I am aware. They buy most of their components (as do lyalvale) from B&P, so I suspect it's simply a rebranded greencore wad. 

Seems like the blame lies mostly at the door of the manufacturers and not BASC. They have had the last few years to make the required changes to their product lineup and have done relatively nothing. While it appears that BASC aren't being entirely honest with their try sustainable ammunition project, they can only work with what the manufacturers can provide. If the likes of Hull and Lyalvale haven't bothered to develop their own bio friendly wad systems then BASC can't do anything about that. 

What we are seeing now is a panicked and rushed move to non toxic and biodegradable wad systems that only a few of the home manufacturers have bothered to put any effort into the development and manufacturing capability for. 

I'd like to know for certain what the latest Hull wad is made of as they did a small advertising campaign not long back to advertise their new water soluble wad (earthy green and fibrous material) and that they had moved away from their previous bio product (brown and smooth to the touch). They do advertise that their new wad is 100% plastic free which would be completely false if they were made from PLA which is a plastic material.   

[London Best]

We should all stop thinking of/using the term ‘sustainable’ ammunition.
The correct term is ‘politically correct’ as it would seem to be this is all that matters.