BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation

[marsh man]

7 hours ago, islandgun said:

Is there not a market for game, or is it diminishing ? many years ago I worked for Ben Rigby near Maldon, we collected from large shoots in Essex and Suffolk and dressed hundreds of pheasant weekly, someone bought them then

It's all down to supply and demand I G , in the era you are talking about there were 10 people who wanted a Pheasant for every one shot , now it might be the other way round , also the generations who used to love buying a brace of fresh Pheasants in the feather have way passed and can you honestly seeing the younger ones of today plucking a brace of birds and then cooking them ? , yes there might be some that do but a lot more that don't , i can go back to the time when the village women would wait outside the game larder up the hall for the days shoot to finish , after the game were hung up and counted the keeper would take a brace as they come and the women would pay good money for a brace of birds and then Harveys from Norwich would arrive and take everything that was left.

Now we don't see a soul , either women or the game dealer as most of the game is taken and what is left the local butcher get them oven ready for the hotel that is on the estate so not a thing is ever wasted.

As for a game dealer paying for game , yes on paper they might well be paying for game but you would be talking pence rather than shillings and you would be lucky if you had enough to convert into five pound notes , I no longer sell any game or fowl but to give you an example the last Pheasants I sold along with some Pigeons a couple of years ago were 30 pence for hens and 40 pence for cocxs , this was from a small dealer and the bigger ones might have been paying less , it was also talked about around our way that some dealers were charging the shoots to take the game away as a few shoots are shooting large numbers nearly everyday of the week .   MM

[holloway]

51 minutes ago, jall25 said:

 

You have an odd take on things really though

You like eating it - so whats the problem - eat it ? 

Unless of course the " i saw people dumping birds " - is someone else told me yada yada yada 

I dont mean to be funny with you but i have been on dozens - and dozens ..... and dozens of different shoots 

Some / many commercial - and whilst i have little interest in them - other than the ones that grow wild bird covers - supplementary feed - dont overstock ( not all commercial shoots do ) - ensure all birds pricked are at least attempted to be retrieved - i have never once seen birds dumped 

Explain” odd take on things” ? …..i stated what i shoot i eat ,simple isn't  it  ? there is no problem ,i would not choose to eat someone else's  rotting Pheasants would you ?  

I did not say i had seen birds dumped , i said i had myself found dumped Pheasants yes myself not second hand story .

    You have never once seen birds dumped ………and ?

 

[islandgun]

45 minutes ago, marsh man said:

It's all down to supply and demand I G , in the era you are talking about there were 10 people who wanted a Pheasant for every one shot , now it might be the other way round , also the generations who used to love buying a brace of fresh Pheasants in the feather have way passed and can you honestly seeing the younger ones of today plucking a brace of birds and then cooking them ? , yes there might be some that do but a lot more that don't , i can go back to the time when the village women would wait outside the game larder up the hall for the days shoot to finish , after the game were hung up and counted the keeper would take a brace as they come and the women would pay good money for a brace of birds and then Harveys from Norwich would arrive and take everything that was left.

Now we don't see a soul , either women or the game dealer as most of the game is taken and what is left the local butcher get them oven ready for the hotel that is on the estate so not a thing is ever wasted.

As for a game dealer paying for game , yes on paper they might well be paying for game but you would be talking pence rather than shillings and you would be lucky if you had enough to convert into five pound notes , I no longer sell any game or fowl but to give you an example the last Pheasants I sold along with some Pigeons a couple of years ago were 30 pence for hens and 40 pence for cocxs , this was from a small dealer and the bigger ones might have been paying less , it was also talked about around our way that some dealers were charging the shoots to take the game away as a few shoots are shooting large numbers nearly everyday of the week .   MM

We were paying more than that for pigeon in 87. Now paying dealers to take them away.... I hear clay pigeon shooting is good fun..can you still use lead for them😇

[jall25]

1 hour ago, holloway said:

Explain” odd take on things” ? …..i stated what i shoot i eat ,simple isn't  it  ? there is no problem ,i would not choose to eat someone else's  rotting Pheasants would you ?  

I did not say i had seen birds dumped , i said i had myself found dumped Pheasants yes myself not second hand story .

    You have never once seen birds dumped ………and ?

 

You stated you had seen birds being dumped with your own eyes 

 

If they were rotting did you check they had not been breasted ?

[Rim Fire]

8 hours ago, jall25 said:

You stated you had seen birds being dumped with your own eyes 

 

If they were rotting did you check they had not been breasted ?

Jall i have seen birds dumped i myself used to take sack fulls for fox bait as there was to many to get rid off 

you can't shoot three time a week and shoot 300 bird days and find takers for all  them 

[Scully]

54 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

 

you can't shoot three time a week and shoot 300 bird days and find takers for all  them 

Why not? We do. 
Were the birds you dumped breasted or entire? 

[mossy835]

if you cant find a home for the shot birds, why shoot so many just a waist.antis will love this,

[jall25]

1 hour ago, Rim Fire said:

Jall i have seen birds dumped i myself used to take sack fulls for fox bait as there was to many to get rid off 

you can't shoot three time a week and shoot 300 bird days and find takers for all  them 

 

If that is the case Rim Fire - i honestly have no idea why anyone would

Shoot them

Pick up on the shoot

Or beat on that shoot

 

[marsh man]

This is a subject which crop up year after year , we all know that the quantity of game shot in the U K far exceed the demand so somewhere down the line there will be large game shoots like the one where a new member was invited on a 500 bird day , these big shoots could well be shooting 2 or three times a week like some of the bigger commercial shoots around our way , when they are charging on average £45 / £50 a bird do you honestly think they worry about what little money they get if they sell it , or if they have to pay a little for the drivers time and the fuel used if it don't cover the cost of the shot game , in there eyes the game have gone to the game dealers so they cannot be charged with dumping the shot birds , we can juggle this issue about all day and it will not alter the fact where the supply of shot game far out stretch the demand .   MM

[Rim Fire]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

This is a subject which crop up year after year , we all know that the quantity of game shot in the U K far exceed the demand so somewhere down the line there will be large game shoots like the one where a new member was invited on a 500 bird day , these big shoots could well be shooting 2 or three times a week like some of the bigger commercial shoots around our way , when they are charging on average £45 / £50 a bird do you honestly think they worry about what little money they get if they sell it , or if they have to pay a little for the drivers time and the fuel used if it don't cover the cost of the shot game , in there eyes the game have gone to the game dealers so they cannot be charged with dumping the shot birds , we can juggle this issue about all day and it will not alter the fact where the supply of shot game far out stretch the demand .   MM

Thank you marshman at least you haven't buried your head in the sand it happens and will always happen as been said with the amount of birds shot throughout the country we would be inundated with  birds     i keep on a small family shoot  anything between 60  / 70 birds on the day is a good day 12 beaters 3 or 4 picking up with 6 or 7 guns you can get rid of birds easy when big shoots average 400 or  500 two  or three times a week  where do you think they go 

[jall25]

7 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

Thank you marshman at least you haven't buried your head in the sand it happens and will always happen as been said with the amount of birds shot throughout the country we would be inundated with  birds     i keep on a small family shoot  anything between 60  / 70 birds on the day is a good day 12 beaters 3 or 4 picking up with 6 or 7 guns you can get rid of birds easy when big shoots average 400 or  500 two  or three times a week  where do you think they go 

Lol - Get real Rim Fire - any idea how many chickens we eat - every day

Its about education - and showing people how to use the birds - I wish we could "make" schools / unis / hospitals utilise game birds and indeed venison 

[Rim Fire]

5 minutes ago, jall25 said:

Lol - Get real Rim Fire - any idea how many chickens we eat - every day

Its about education - and showing people how to use the birds - I wish we could "make" schools / unis / hospitals utilise game birds and indeed venison 

How many Pheasants do you see on the shelfs in any supermarket 🤣 oh i know none don't disagree with the rest of your post but i jall you need to get real 🤣 and wake up to reality 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Rim Fire

[jall25]

Just now, Rim Fire said:

How many Pheasants do you see on the shelfs in any supermarket 🤣 oh i know none don't disagree with the rest of your post but i jall you need to get real 🤣 

 

I dont bud - i think you boys that are complicit with this ridiculous practice - if indeed it happens - need to get real and grow a pair

As i say 

Dont shoot there

Dont beat there

Dont pick up there

Dont fox there

Soon realise the right way and the wrong way

Over the years i have shot on some big days - to be honest massive days - but all the birds were processed or collected by game dealers 

[islandgun]

1 minute ago, jall25 said:

Lol - Get real Rim Fire - any idea how many chickens we eat - every day

Its about education - and showing people how to use the birds - I wish we could "make" schools / unis / hospitals utilise game birds and indeed venison 

 A quick google reveals Its about 2m hens per day, whilst according to GWCT more than 40m pheasants are released annually.. Id still rather be a pheasant

[London Best]

I have a friend who runs a fairly big commercial shoot. 

Some seasons he can provide over 100 days shooting. 
Not all are enormous days, but his biggest are usually over 400, sometimes back to back. 
At the end of the day everyone is welcome to take however many they want. 
The rest are collected and all are used in pet food.

[marsh man]

22 minutes ago, London Best said:

I have a friend who runs a fairly big commercial shoot. 

Some seasons he can provide over 100 days shooting. 
Not all are enormous days, but his biggest are usually over 400, sometimes back to back. 
At the end of the day everyone is welcome to take however many they want. 
The rest are collected and all are used in pet food.

Your last sentence L B show you the signs of the times , The rest are collected and all used in pet food , another thing that have only happened over the last few years is the shoot you are beating for or helping out on  tell all the guns and helpers to help yourself to what ever game you want to take away at the end of the day , it wasn't that long ago where if any gun wanted to take one or two extra brace above the brace they were given were charged whatever the dealers were paying and was rounded up to the nearest pound .

When I was driving the beaters on another shoot I used to go on they had a roving syndicate , this subject would often crop up and they were saying that one shoot they went on you could also take whatever you wanted and the ones that were left were incinerated , these would have been mainly the ropey ones with hard hit or damage showing along with any good ones that were left , where at one time the dealers would have took the damaged ones and then cut any decent bits off to use for mixed game pieces , now they have more than enough decent ones they will simply reject any they don't want .

[clangerman]

pointless arguing over the end destination for birds large scale game shooting is already on the last bus it’s just waiting to leave 

[jall25]

21 minutes ago, clangerman said:

pointless arguing over the end destination for birds large scale game shooting is already on the last bus it’s just waiting to leave 

Same as lots of the lads say though Clanger - whats large scale 50 / 100 / 200 birds a day - or 200 a week or so many birds per acre ?

Very hard to say

Im not into days now over circa 150 - i like to see the lads shoot and miss the birds which on a bigger day you dont get - as you are simply shooting

I wonder though about the loss of supplementary feeding and vermin control in the countryside if driven days have gone - what reason will the landowners have to keep the woods and who would manage them 

The wild bird plots - would they be gone and the hedges flailed to death ?

 

I think careful for what we wish 

Im no huntsman - but i tip my hat at the vison the hunters had inn the past when they created the spinneys and woods for their sport 

[Rim Fire]

2 hours ago, jall25 said:

 

I dont bud - i think you boys that are complicit with this ridiculous practice - if indeed it happens - need to get real and grow a pair

As i say 

Dont shoot there

Dont beat there

Dont pick up there

Dont fox there

Soon realise the right way and the wrong way

Over the years i have shot on some big days - to be honest massive days - but all the birds were processed or collected by game dealers 

I shall shoot pickup and beat where ever I like 👍 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Rim Fire

[8 shot]

3 hours ago, jall25 said:

I wonder though about the loss of supplementary feeding and vermin control in the countryside if driven days have gone - what reason will the landowners have to keep the woods and who would manage them 

The wild bird plots - would they be gone and the hedges flailed to death ?

 

I think careful for what we wish 

but i tip my hat at the vison the hunters had inn the past when they created the spinneys and woods for their sport 

I had the exact same conversation with Conor from the BASC when the Lead transition was muted. Our Agronomist told us of two big estates that after this season are scaling back from 50+ days each to no more than a dozen a season, most of the Game crops, Cover crops and Wild Bird schemes are being return to intensive agricultural production ie. Wheat etc. well in excess 0f 1000ac over the two estate. The decline has i'm afraid already started. The small farm shoots I drill Game crops on are sticking with it for the next 3 years and going to try and make the schemes work for the shoot but at the moment only in the short term.

[jall25]

3 hours ago, 8 shot said:

I had the exact same conversation with Conor from the BASC when the Lead transition was muted. Our Agronomist told us of two big estates that after this season are scaling back from 50+ days each to no more than a dozen a season, most of the Game crops, Cover crops and Wild Bird schemes are being return to intensive agricultural production ie. Wheat etc. well in excess 0f 1000ac over the two estate. The decline has i'm afraid already started. The small farm shoots I drill Game crops on are sticking with it for the next 3 years and going to try and make the schemes work for the shoot but at the moment only in the short term.

Sad to hear 

I wonder if things change as ELMS comes on line 

[holloway]

10 hours ago, jall25 said:

 

I dont bud - i think you boys that are complicit with this ridiculous practice - if indeed it happens - need to get real and grow a pair

As i say 

Dont shoot there

Dont beat there

Dont pick up there

Dont fox there

Soon realise the right way and the wrong way

Over the years i have shot on some big days - to be honest massive days - but all the birds were processed or collected by game dealers 

You clearly have a problem with the facts on disposal of the bags ,as pointed out by several on this forum as well as myself  ,i have stated i have seen dumped Pheasants you continue to insinuate i am a liar ,to be honest i am a little offended by this .

I will end my involvement on this thread after this post as to be honest i am fairly difficult to offend but you have succeeded in doing so ,so well done you .

[8 shot]

57 minutes ago, jall25 said:

wonder if things change as ELMS comes on line 

They're not really worth it unless your on marginal ground, Wheat is still more profitable, and your not tied to it if your situation changes. There is not a great deal of thought going in to all this environment nonsense by Government and "other" Parties, every short sighted.

[Krico woodcock]

23 hours ago, London Best said:

I have a friend who runs a fairly big commercial shoot. 

Some seasons he can provide over 100 days shooting. 
Not all are enormous days, but his biggest are usually over 400, sometimes back to back. 
At the end of the day everyone is welcome to take however many they want. 
The rest are collected and all are used in pet food.

It's hard to believe the best of meat for human consumption is being used in pet food.  But then again I get it hard to get my head around the massive scale of driven shooting in the uk.  And the amount of game being shot each season..  In Ireland there are a few driven shoots, but only a pin ***** in the ocean compared to uk. We are traditionally a rough shooting type.. so what does be shot by one or two lads out for a few woodcock , ducks, and odd cock pheasant does normally be relished.. in saying that I know plenty of lads hungry enough to nearly break their neck to get shooting a cock pheasant in front of you, but once the trigger is pulled,  that's it. They never pull a feather off a bird. They "give them away "..  it's a bit of pet hate of mine,  because I was brought up with what you shoot you eat. You would be surprised the amount of lads don't know how to process game,  let alone cook it. Which is a pity because there really is no better,  and versatile than game, fowl when cooked correctly.. in the news at least once a week you see headlines " cost of living crisis " I do be very sceptical how much a crisis there is. Going back in time when my late father was born in 1940, 9 children in his family, any type of food was scarce,  and post war 1950's there was nearly even less, every rabbit,  pigeon pheasant,duck etc were invaluable to families (alot larger than families of today, often 8+ children)that could afford a few cartridges to shoot them. Although rabbit's were mostly snared at the time,  and  any surplus would command big money.. that was a cost of living crisis.. Any of the few times I stood at a peg on a driven shoot,  I mostly always enjoyed it. It's a far cry from type of shooting I normally do, so its more of a novelty,  all be it a expensive one!. But  at the end of day I too was told to take as many of pheasants i wanted,  which i always did,  the best of pheasants, mud fat , being fed on maize and wheat. Sure there would be other lads taking their share,  but equally same amount of lads , wouldn't thank you for couple of braces, and in their vehicle and gone!. 

[London Best]

31 minutes ago, Krico woodcock said:

It's hard to believe the best of meat for human consumption is being used in pet food.  But then again I get it hard to get my head around the massive scale of driven shooting in the uk.  And the amount of game being shot each season..  In Ireland there are a few driven shoots, but only a pin ***** in the ocean compared to uk. We are traditionally a rough shooting type.. so what does be shot by one or two lads out for a few woodcock , ducks, and odd cock pheasant does normally be relished.. in saying that I know plenty of lads hungry enough to nearly break their neck to get shooting a cock pheasant in front of you, but once the trigger is pulled,  that's it. They never pull a feather off a bird. They "give them away "..  it's a bit of pet hate of mine,  because I was brought up with what you shoot you eat. You would be surprised the amount of lads don't know how to process game,  let alone cook it. Which is a pity because there really is no better,  and versatile than game, fowl when cooked correctly.. in the news at least once a week you see headlines " cost of living crisis " I do be very sceptical how much a crisis there is. Going back in time when my late father was born in 1940, 9 children in his family, any type of food was scarce,  and post war 1950's there was nearly even less, every rabbit,  pigeon pheasant,duck etc were invaluable to families (alot larger than families of today, often 8+ children)that could afford a few cartridges to shoot them. Although rabbit's were mostly snared at the time,  and  any surplus would command big money.. that was a cost of living crisis.. Any of the few times I stood at a peg on a driven shoot,  I mostly always enjoyed it. It's a far cry from type of shooting I normally do, so its more of a novelty,  all be it a expensive one!. But  at the end of day I too was told to take as many of pheasants i wanted,  which i always did,  the best of pheasants, mud fat , being fed on maize and wheat. Sure there would be other lads taking their share,  but equally same amount of lads , wouldn't thank you for couple of braces, and in their vehicle and gone!. 

Must say, Sir, I agree with every word. 
I’ve been there, done a lot of ‘rough’ type of shooting for most of my life. 
And met the characters hungry enough!
Now I am fortunate to be able to afford to shoot driven days (on a small scale) and that is mostly what I do these days. 
Having said that, yesterday I received an invitation to a rough shoot on Boxing Day. If we shoot 2 pheasants between us it will be a good day and I am relishing the thought of every minute of it.