Mr Bates v The Post Office

[Vince Green]

15 hours ago, Gordon R said:

He wan't alone in telling the Post Office that Horizon was rubbish. The scary part of this is just how widespread the cover up was. Just how many Fujitsu and Post Office employees were involved?

You cannot work in a major company like the post office in any sort of management capacity and not have realised that something was wrong. The sheer scale of the problem negates anyone using the excuse that they were not aware

 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

You cannot work in a major company like the post office in any sort of management capacity and not have realised that something was wrong. The sheer scale of the problem negates anyone using the excuse that they were not aware

 

The other question was - why did the auditors not pick this up?

 

[old man]

21 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

The other question was - why did the auditors not pick this up?

 

Another question, should their special powers of prosecution be removed?

Seemingly, lots of politicos are developing a conscience now?

Edited January 10 by old man

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, old man said:

Another question, should their special powers of prosecution be removed?

Seemingly, lots of politicos are developing a conscience now?

Definitely, they have proved beyond any doubt that they cannot use them properly.

 

There are an AWFUL LOT of people who should be very worried about their liberty, their pensions and their good names.

[JohnfromUK]

9 minutes ago, old man said:

Another question, should their special powers of prosecution be removed?

I don't know enough about how it is set up, scoped and controlled, but it seems to me that prosecution should be either 'Crown' or normal private (e.g. suing for debts) through normal channels.

The problem has been that the CPS are considered useless and lazy.

[Agriv8]

38 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Interesting that Gareth Jenkins is trying to get a deal for immunity, he was the lead for the Horizon System and Fujitsu and was instrumental in many of the prosecutions of Sub Post Masters.

I have been doing a bit of reading about Gareth Jenkins he took the stand and under oath stated that systems  were robust secured and accurate . At a later hearing ( pivotal in the long running saga )it appears that Fujitsu  had access to manipulate data one would assume by bypassing audit logs ?

Begs the question who was in control of this project looking very much to be the supplier protecting its income stream / reputation .

Why have Fujitsu not been dragged into the ring ( again one would assume a water tight contract placing all risk on the PO ? )

regards Agriv8

[Vince Green]

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't know enough about how it is set up, scoped and controlled, but it seems to me that prosecution should be either 'Crown' or normal private (e.g. suing for debts) through normal channels.

The problem has been that the CPS are considered useless and lazy.

It appears from what I heard on the radio that they didn't have special powers they just had a well established internal investigations operation that also handled prosecutions because that's the way they had always done it historically.

I think very strongly that the internal investigation team is going to come out very very badly in any enquiry. Certainly they lied repeatedly in court and withheld evidence from the defence lawyers every time. They must have known, don't see how they can deny it.

Edited January 10 by Vince Green

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

It appears from what I heard on the radio that they didn't have special powers they just had a well established internal investigations operation that also handled prosecutions because that's the way they had always done it.

I think very strongly that the internal investigation team is going to come out very badly in any enquiry. Certainly they lied in court and withheld evidence from the defence lawyers.

I don't know enough about how these things work but my (rather vague and possibly incorrect) understanding is that the 'investigation team' were charged with gathering evidence.  That could be used for one or more of;

1. Recovery of funds by agreement or agreed 'employment issues'
2. A civil prosecution (i.e. non criminal) to recover funds and deal with 'employment issues'.
3. Passing to the CPS for criminal (e.g. theft, fraud, perjury etc.) prosecution

I was not aware (though it may be possible, I just don't know as it is not my area) that 'criminal' prosecutions would be done without CPS involvement.  Normally that would be the police, but maybe the 'special powers' mean that the investigation team can work direct to the CPS without involving police?

As I say, I don't know and the above is just my thoughts.

[old man]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't know enough about how it is set up, scoped and controlled, but it seems to me that prosecution should be either 'Crown' or normal private (e.g. suing for debts) through normal channels.

The problem has been that the CPS are considered useless and lazy.

Could that be that they have been proven  by performance to be useless and lazy?

[Vince Green]

30 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't know enough about how these things work but my (rather vague and possibly incorrect) understanding is that the 'investigation team' were charged with gathering evidence.  That could be used for one or more of;

1. Recovery of funds by agreement or agreed 'employment issues'
2. A civil prosecution (i.e. non criminal) to recover funds and deal with 'employment issues'.
3. Passing to the CPS for criminal (e.g. theft, fraud, perjury etc.) prosecution

I was not aware (though it may be possible, I just don't know as it is not my area) that 'criminal' prosecutions would be done without CPS involvement.  Normally that would be the police, but maybe the 'special powers' mean that the investigation team can work direct to the CPS without involving police?

As I say, I don't know and the above is just my thoughts.

From the radio programme yesterday any company or individual can take out a private prosecution.  It doesn't have to go through the police or the CPS. They have no monopoly 

With hindsight it would have been better if they had gone down the police/CPS route because the post office investigation team ( virtually all ex Met CID) behaved worse than the KGB. 

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

any company or individual can take out a private prosecution

That is crtainly th case for civil matters, but I didn't know it was so for criminal matters

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is crtainly th case for civil matters, but I didn't know it was so for criminal matters

Apparently so

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, if any of the 700 X Postmasters did look at taking out a Private Prosecution who would they decide to go for ? There has been so many involved with the Fujitsu and the Post Office employees starting with the top CEO at that time

[JohnfromUK]

16 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Apparently so

Having now done a little checking, it is certainly 'possible', but considered both 'difficult' and also high risk as regards costs.  It is not often done. 

There are a complex rules for prosecuting (disclosing evidence etc.) which must be followed.  Whilst the prosecutor may in theory be awarded costs, the defence may also be able to claim costs from the prosecutor.

[oldypigeonpopper]

14 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Having now done a little checking, it is certainly 'possible', but considered both 'difficult' and also high risk as regards costs.  It is not often done. 

There are a complex rules for prosecuting (disclosing evidence etc.) which must be followed.  Whilst the prosecutor may in theory be awarded costs, the defence may also be able to claim costs from the prosecutor.

No Win No Fee ??

[Agriv8]

So  simply put 

computer says it can’t balance sp the post master must be on the fiddle?

postmaster gets told pay is back or go to court? 

Po & horizon & Fujitsu state computer system is watertight.

anyone discovered how the error happened ?

computer

user

communication

mainframe

database

Agriv8

[Gordon R]

Quote

Po & horizon & Fujitsu state computer system is watertight.

They lied. One of the technical experts - Gareth Jenkins - wants immunity from prosecution before he explains what was wrong.

[harrycatcat1]

On 04/01/2024 at 18:21, Sussexboy said:

No, you can use the free access version. It comes up as the main item on the login page on mine, otherwise look in “Top Picks” further down the page.

Can I eck as like find it anywhere on itv x I've looked on top picks and even done a search 🤔 

 

 

[Sussexboy]

@harrycatcat1 that’s weird, mine shows it on the front page.

[oowee]

I wonder too if there are post masters that saw credits on there account rather than debits. 

Good to see the govt pulling out all of the stops to get an early resolution. I see the SNP will also work with parliament to find a solution for the North. 🤣

Fujitsu recieve £2bn of contract work from UK plc. I am sure they will chip in £1m 😁

 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I wonder too if there are post masters that saw credits on there account rather than debits.

I assume that the Post Office would have noticed that, as they seem quite keen on the debits. 🙂

Gotta love the current trend of bosses:-

Adam Crozier - head of Post Office - knew nothing about Horizon problems, although they were well known.

Ed Davey - Minister for Post office - knew nothing - Post Office officials lied to him.

Paula Venells - head of Post office - knew nothing about Horizon problems, although they were well known.

Keir Starmer - head of CPS, unaware of problems with Post Office private prosecutions, which CPS could have taken over, as they did in a number of cases.

Keir Starmer - head of CPS, unaware of decision to not charge Jimmy Savile.

 

Edited January 10 by Gordon R

[JohnfromUK]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I wonder too if there are post masters that saw credits on there account rather than debits.

I don't know how it works, but when I ran a small business and was VAT registered, we used a software package so that we could do the accounts and (particularly)the VAT.  This enabled you to (quite easily) drill down to any individual transaction as see ALL the details about that transaction.  I saw that as essential to be able to handle VAT inspector visits - which typically involved just that - drilling down to the details.  I assume that for some reason it was not possible for the sub postmasters to do that in Horizon?

The software I used also enabled you to 'reconcile' over a period - we normally reconciled monthly as that was the period the bank statements covered (this was pre internet banking).   Occasionally there was an error and it was immediately apparent at the monthly reconciliation because the amount 'accounted for' didn't reconcile with the cash/account balances.  These were normally quite easy to find - but that was the purpose of having an accounting system.

I'm not accounts trained, but any 'system' for book keeping that doesn't give a full audit trail (in the limit to any one individual transaction) would surely never get past the first annual audit or VAT inspection?  Perhaps I'm being over simplistic?  Perhaps VAT inspectors went 'easy' on Post Offices?

Just now, Gordon R said:

Ed Davey - Minster for Post office - knew nothing

That one is believable - in fact a politician "knowing nothing" is par for the course.  Same comment applies to Starmer.

[old man]

4 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, if any of the 700 X Postmasters did look at taking out a Private Prosecution who would they decide to go for ? There has been so many involved with the Fujitsu and the Post Office employees starting with the top CEO at that time

A class action, crowd funded?

[oldypigeonpopper]

44 minutes ago, old man said:

A class action, crowd funded?

Why not, i have now seen it is more likely near 900

[12gauge82]

An issue I believe is being vastly overlook due to the other shocking failures in this debukle, is our criminal justice system appears to be totally unfit for purpose. 

The whole principle of our legal system is supposed to be based on it being better that many guilty men walk free, than one innocent be found guilty, the fact it appears that hundreds have been prosecuted, each one a missed opportunity to clear everyone, says to me the system is an utter failure and not fit for purpose, it longer gives me any faith whatsoever.