BASC update on voluntary transition away from lead shot and and single-use plastics for live quarry

[PeterHenry]

36 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

No Elephant in the room, Lead will be banned full stop.  When did you ever see Game in a Supermarket or anywhere else?

I've seen it in Waitrose and Iceland 

[Weihrauch17]

9 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I've seen it in Waitrose and Iceland 

Well I have never seen it in recent years so hardly widespread and certainly not worth killing shooting over.

Edited April 6 by Weihrauch17

[marsh man]

19 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

I've seen it in Waitrose and Iceland 

I believe Waitrose were one of the first , if not the first supermarket to sell lead free game . .

[Robden]

17 hours ago, Scully said:

Lead is toxic; the entire point of the ban is to prevent it being scattered all over the countryside. 
Unless you’re shooting clays, and then it doesn’t matter apparently. 

What about rusting steel, is that toxic?? Any 'papers' published on the subject or testing done, that we can read?  Our bodies can handle/dispose of small amounts of lead. But what about rusting steel?

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Robden said:

What about rusting steel, is that toxic?? Any 'papers' published on the subject or testing done, that we can read?  Our bodies can handle/dispose of small amounts of lead. But what about rusting steel?

I have no idea. 

[Scully]

12 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Do you support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting?

Thats a good question.
 I could support  a transition away from lead and single use plastics period, but it rankles that it’s just for live quarry because that is totally illogical. 
If the ban is for the stated purposes of toxicity then a two tier ban simply defeats the purpose and makes a mockery of any legislation. We continue with lead shot and single use plastics for trap shooting, but not for live quarry shooting? Even on the same land? Really?
That doesn’t make sense at all, so I suppose the answer is no, I don’t support the lead ban as it is proposed. 

I’ll continue shooting live quarry and clays with lead shot for as long as I can, simply because manufacturers are still making the stuff; it suits me and it suits my guns.
Not only do I have some very desirable ( to me ) trap guns very tightly choked, I also have a rather expensive collection of full chokes of various makes such as Teague, Briley and Muller which will likely be rendered obsolete. I note there has never been any mention of compensation for those with such tightly fixed chokes, to cover the expense of opening up trap gun chokes or indeed the necessary need for reproofing as a result, but even if there were, it STILL leaves me and others with obsolete expensive collections of tighter than half chokes! 
I only use steel for rabbits which I intend to feed to my ferrets, because as we all know lead is toxic; not toxic enough to kill a human or even make them ill in the doses the FSA once recommended ( I remember the days when shooting organisations were singing the praises of the merits and health benefits of eating wild game! 😂 ) but will certainly kill a ferret or a raptor, and millions of ducks apparently, although no one can find them! 
Here’s another thought.  .22rf lead ammunition is still being made, and although I have a large quantity of that to get through, do I stop buying that when I get close to running out Conor? If so what do I buy in its stead? 
As you well know, ‘good reason’ is a prerequisite for owning S1. If I stop buying ammo for S1 what happens if and when my FEO queries why at next renewal? 
Lots to discuss Conor, but I doubt we will. 

Edited April 7 by Scully

[PeterHenry]

11 hours ago, marsh man said:

I believe Waitrose were one of the first , if not the first supermarket to sell lead free game . .

👍 I think they might have been

[Mable]

15 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Do you support the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting?

I don't, not now, not ever.

Absolute garbage.

Lead comes the ground, it's not a man made product.

Why not ban nettles cos they sting or brambles cos they snag clothing?

We constantly pander to the minority that shout the loudest just to shut them up.

 

[PeterHenry]

48 minutes ago, Mable said:

Lead comes the ground, it's not a man made product.

 

So does Arsenic....

Obviously they aren't direct comparisons - but it's a daft argument that just because somethings natural, it's not in need of some form of regulation.

Edited April 7 by PeterHenry

[Yellow Bear]

2 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

it's not in need of some form of regulation.

Unfortunately in this case the regulation has gone silly.   I live in an area with a high lead content in the soil (it was for many centuries a lead producing  area) and the village is old.  There are families here that have been around for generations all living, even by modern standards, to a ripe old age despite growing their own food. Yet regulations now stipulate when building new that the top 300mm of soil are removed and treated as hazardous waste if it leaves the site,  but it can be deposited in a layer on another part of the site hat is outwith the build area.

  Farming and growing continue all round and play/recreation areas are still on the "same" topsoil.  What absolute stupid bureaucracy.

Still I suppose it does help discourage some developers.

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

Thats a good question.
 I could support  a transition away from lead and single use plastics period, but it rankles that it’s just for live quarry because that is totally illogical. 
If the ban is for the stated purposes of toxicity then a two tier ban simply defeats the purpose and makes a mockery of any legislation. We continue with lead shot and single use plastics for trap shooting, but not for live quarry shooting? Even on the same land? Really?
That doesn’t make sense at all, so I suppose the answer is no, I don’t support the lead ban as it is proposed. 

I’ll continue shooting live quarry and clays with lead shot for as long as I can, simply because manufacturers are still making the stuff; it suits me and it suits my guns.
Not only do I have some very desirable ( to me ) trap guns very tightly choked, I also have a rather expensive collection of full chokes of various makes such as Teague, Briley and Muller which will likely be rendered obsolete. I note there has never been any mention of compensation for those with such tightly fixed chokes, to cover the expense of opening up trap gun chokes or indeed the necessary need for reproofing as a result, but even if there were, it STILL leaves me and others with obsolete expensive collections of tighter than half chokes! 
I only use steel for rabbits which I intend to feed to my ferrets, because as we all know lead is toxic; not toxic enough to kill a human or even make them ill in the doses the FSA once recommended ( I remember the days when shooting organisations were singing the praises of the merits and health benefits of eating wild game! 😂 ) but will certainly kill a ferret or a raptor, and millions of ducks apparently, although no one can find them! 
Here’s another thought.  .22rf lead ammunition is still being made, and although I have a large quantity of that to get through, do I stop buying that when I get close to running out Conor? If so what do I buy in its stead? 
As you well know, ‘good reason’ is a prerequisite for owning S1. If I stop buying ammo for S1 what happens if and when my FEO queries why at next renewal? 
Lots to discuss Conor, but I doubt we will. 

Thanks for the insights on your thinking. You are back talking about a 'ban' again though (!) when its a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. I agree with you on the same piece of ground used for live quarry and target shooting - there would be little logic in a shoot voluntarily moving away from lead shot for one discipline and not the other on the same piece of ground in the open countryside where risks to birds are unlikely to be controllable - it matters not to the bird eating the lead shot as grit - that lead shot will have the same impact either way grinding away in its gizzard and dissolving into the bloodstream as lead salts. 

I respect your decision and reasons for continuing to shoot with lead shot in most cases except for rabbits, because of your ferrets. It is a voluntary transition after all.

As regards .22rf lead ammunition that's not covered by the voluntary transition. And in any case why would you stop buying it when you run out?

[bruno22rf]

1 hour ago, Mable said:

I don't, not now, not ever.

Absolute garbage.

Lead comes the ground, it's not a man made product.

Why not ban nettles cos they sting or brambles cos they snag clothing?

We constantly pander to the minority that shout the loudest just to shut them up.

 

Agree 100%, as as for all this Bull about "Voluntary" - who, exactly, is volunteering? Count me out.

[Scully]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

Thanks for the insights on your thinking. You are back talking about a 'ban' again though (!) when its a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting. I agree with you on the same piece of ground used for live quarry and target shooting - there would be little logic in a shoot voluntarily moving away from lead shot for one discipline and not the other on the same piece of ground in the open countryside where risks to birds are unlikely to be controllable - it matters not to the bird eating the lead shot as grit - that lead shot will have the same impact either way grinding away in its gizzard and dissolving into the bloodstream as lead salts. 

I respect your decision and reasons for continuing to shoot with lead shot in most cases except for rabbits, because of your ferrets. It is a voluntary transition after all.

As regards .22rf lead ammunition that's not covered by the voluntary transition. And in any case why would you stop buying it when you run out?

Eh? A ‘voluntary transition’ is the forerunner to an outright ban! If it’s not then what are we talking about? If it’s voluntary ( meaning I have a choice ) then I’ll choose to use lead indefinitely, as would every single shooter in the UK if they were honest. It’s cheaper, it kills better, it is suitable for ALL guns through ALL chokes and it’s readily available! 
If .22rf isn’t covered by a voluntary transition then indeed, I won’t stop buying it. But lead is toxic so therefore it has to be phased out or we’re back to two tier legislation which makes a mockery of the entire policy. 
What sort of fools are we being taken for here? 

Edited April 7 by Scully

[PeterHenry]

50 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Unfortunately in this case the regulation has gone silly.   I live in an area with a high lead content in the soil (it was for many centuries a lead producing  area) and the village is old.  There are families here that have been around for generations all living, even by modern standards, to a ripe old age despite growing their own food. Yet regulations now stipulate when building new that the top 300mm of soil are removed and treated as hazardous waste if it leaves the site,  but it can be deposited in a layer on another part of the site hat is outwith the build area.

  Farming and growing continue all round and play/recreation areas are still on the "same" topsoil.  What absolute stupid bureaucracy.

Still I suppose it does help discourage some developers.

It not that I necessarily disagree with all of that - it just makes me wince when that particular argument is rolled out, because it tends to be presented as a very simple and obvious truth, when in fact its not.

[Bigteddy1954]

So conor if its voluntary this means if i want to use lead for the next 20 years thats ok ?

[Conor O'Gorman]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

Eh? A ‘voluntary transition’ is the forerunner to an outright ban! If it’s not then what are we talking about? If it’s voluntary ( meaning I have a choice ) then I’ll choose to use lead indefinitely, as would every single shooter in the UK if they were honest. It’s cheaper, it kills better, it is suitable for ALL guns through ALL chokes and it’s readily available! 
If .22rf isn’t covered by a voluntary transition then indeed, I won’t stop buying it. But lead is toxic so therefore it has to be phased out or we’re back to two tier legislation which makes a mockery of the entire policy. 
What sort of fools are we being taken for here? 

I don't think the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting is a forerunner to a ban on lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting - the shooting organisations do not make the law - but it is about reducing the risk to a wide range of bird species in terrestrial habitats of those birds picking up lead shot as grit and suffering ill effects from that.  

Consider other voluntary measures - voluntary restraint on the shooting of waterfowl during prolonged periods of severe winter weather, voluntary restraint on shooting woodcock until the migrants arrive, all the voluntary codes of practice and so on. Self-regulation is preferable to one-size fits all changes in law. 

In that context, BASC's argument against the Health and Safety Executive proposals to ban lead shot for live quarry shooting is that the voluntary move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting is reducing the risks lead shot pose to birds - and that the shooting sector must be allowed time to develop non-lead shotgun ammunition due to a world shortage of components and the need for manufacturers and assemblers to source new machinery to produce lead shot alternatives and biodegradable wads for all shotgun calibers.

39 minutes ago, Bigteddy1954 said:

So conor if its voluntary this means if i want to use lead for the next 20 years thats ok ?

Yes, that's your personal choice, and for the sake of the birds you might consider moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

[Conor O'Gorman]

18 hours ago, Bigteddy1954 said:

Right conor have you a sumary or count over the last 10 years of how many birds or animals have died due to digesting lead shot or even humans ?

There has been lots of research providing evidence for birds suffering ill effects from eating lead shot as grit in the UK and worldwide. That's a key issue and if you are interested to find out more a good place to start looking at the evidence is the GWCT website.

[Smudger687]

On 03/04/2024 at 19:58, Conor O'Gorman said:

As we enter the fifth year of the eight major shooting organisations’ voluntary transition away from lead shot and single-use plastics for live quarry, it seems a good time to reflect on the significant achievements made over the past four years. BASC's Terry Behan looks at the progress so far.

https://basc.org.uk/moving-forward-for-the-future-of-shooting/

 

Conor, no manufacturer has developed a satisfactory biowad. I have even made you personally aware of this and yet BASC continues to bury its head in the sand. Why is that BASC never listens?

To be clear once more - the "biocompostible" wads used by Hull, B&P, bioammo, lyalvale etc are made of polylactic acid (PLA). PLA does not break down in real world conditions, so they are no different in practice to a plaswad. They are also brittle in cold weather and prone to splitting. 

The water soluble wads will degrade but they foul the bores terribly, significant enough that barrel obstruction becomes a real risk. They are also not amenable to long term storage or available to the homeloader due to their sensitivity to atmospheric moisture. 

The paper cup wads are not strong enough for steel shot. Myself and others have tested these extensively and barrel and choke scoring is commonplace.

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

There has been lots of research providing evidence for birds suffering ill effects from eating lead shot as grit in the UK and worldwide. That's a key issue and if you are interested to find out more a good place to start looking at the evidence is the GWCT website.

I wonder what the long term effects of birds using rusty squared off (sharp)  iron shot and broken bits of oxidised bismuth are....... all heavy metals in their bio absorbitive form (usually oxides) are poisonous and hard metals cause internal damage whilst passing through.

For instance......

Large chunks of iron can cut your internal organs, and high concentrations of microscopic iron can cause iron poisoning.   The symptoms of iron poisoning are fever, headache, dizziness, low blood pressure, fast/weak pulse, shortness of breath, fluid in the lungs, grey/blueish/jaundice skin, and/or seizures. Iron poisoning can eventually cause death by liver failure or circulatory system shock.

 

As there have not been comparative studies, the PTB have no idea if lead shot, bismuth shot, tungsten or iron shot are any better than each other. There simply has been a focus on getting rid of lead.

Edited April 7 by Stonepark

[enfieldspares]

11 hours ago, Robden said:

What about rusting steel, is that toxic?? Any 'papers' published on the subject or testing done, that we can read?  Our bodies can handle/dispose of small amounts of lead. But what about rusting steel?

Ah. But the bird will be rejected by the supermarkets long before that stage. Game shot with large size steel shot is terribly bloodshot in the breast and looks awful. So it won't even get to the chiller cabinet. 

[ShootingEgg]

4 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

You are back talking about a 'ban' again though (!) when its a voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting

I have to disagree with this. It is a BAN dressed up as a voluntary transition. If the likes of BASC CA NGO etc pushed back the powers that be would have pushed through a ban. 

 

[Mable]

2 hours ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

 for the sake of the birds you might consider moving away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

Why?

Deads, dead.

[Conor O'Gorman]

2 hours ago, Smudger687 said:

Conor, no manufacturer has developed a satisfactory biowad. I have even made you personally aware of this and yet BASC continues to bury its head in the sand. Why is that BASC never listens?

To be clear once more - the "biocompostible" wads used by Hull, B&P, bioammo, lyalvale etc are made of polylactic acid (PLA). PLA does not break down in real world conditions, so they are no different in practice to a plaswad. They are also brittle in cold weather and prone to splitting. 

The water soluble wads will degrade but they foul the bores terribly, significant enough that barrel obstruction becomes a real risk. They are also not amenable to long term storage or available to the homeloader due to their sensitivity to atmospheric moisture. 

The paper cup wads are not strong enough for steel shot. Myself and others have tested these extensively and barrel and choke scoring is commonplace.

Thanks, as you know I have passed your feedback and experience onto colleagues in BASC. Perhaps be mindful that we are also getting feedback from many other people on their experiences also. BASC is listening. Innovation continues and the move away from lead shot and single use plastics for live quarry shooting is voluntary.

[Weihrauch17]

31 minutes ago, Mable said:

Why?

Deads, dead.

He means for live birds ingesting Lead.  I have been shooting shotguns in the field for 40 years and have seen absolutely no evidence of dead birds from Lead ingestion.  The below does not mean they died from it.

A GWCT study published in 2005 found that 4.5% of discovered dead birds contained lead shot in their gizzards and estimated that 1.2% of living wild grey partridges contained ingested lead shot at any one time14.7 Feb 2020

Edited April 7 by Weihrauch17

[Mable]

1 minute ago, Weihrauch17 said:

He means for live birds ingesting Lead.  I have been shooting shotguns in the field for 40 years and have seen absolutely no evidence of dead birds from Lead ingestion.  The below does not mean they dies from it.

A GWCT study published in 2005 found that 4.5% of discovered dead birds contained lead shot in their gizzards and estimated that 1.2% of living wild grey partridges contained ingested lead shot at any one time14.7 Feb 2020

I would have thought but have absolutely no proof that more die from eating food container waste like plastic bags or like other species from getting trapped in those plastic circle things from 4 or 6 packs of cans.

I was just thinking about that statistic. I've been shooting around 65 years and in that time have probably found less than 1 bird per year dead that wasn't shot. Using that calculation, in my lifetime less than 4 birds have been found go have ingested lead? Or is my maths wrong?