Keir Starmer in Berlin to "reset" Brexit

[12gauge82]

8 hours ago, oowee said:

 

I fully accept that my priorities (from an EU access and use perspective) are different from most. That said we are all impoverished as a result of the process. Our freedoms have been curtailed. We are all paying a huge price. Trade has had a severe kick in the goolies. We have wage inflation and a severe shortage of workers. We have inflation exacerbated by transport and trade control costs. 

It's a democratic choice but it does not make it good for the people choosing to leave. We are where we are and we are paying the price.

Just remember that with the next boat load of immigrants we cannot stop, the next time the NHS fails to deliver, the rise in taxes, the train drivers pay demands, sewage in the rivers ............................................. It's endless. None of it directly as result of Brexit but all magnified and exacerbated as a result.  

Anyways, enough for now. I have to find a route to the North coast of Spain for next year 😁

Next will come the drive for lower standards. 

I would suggest covid is by far the largest factor responsible for inflation. I'm sorry Brexit has impacted you so badly, I think most Brexiteers were prepared to take a hit if we left, I'm actually surprised there wasn't anything major, considering the warnings we were given, I have felt no negatives at all. I just wish we had a government who believed in it and wants to seize the benifits of it, but have accepted we won't see that with the Conservatives or Labour, which is fine, it's a democratic decision. 

Bon voyage oowee! 

[Penelope]

11 hours ago, Cosmicblue said:

Starmer will be trying to build bridges hand control back into one of the largest markets for the UK - back to Germany.   

Corrected that for you.

11 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

I don't have a problem with a trading block. 

The original "Common Market" was fine ....... but it became much MUCH more than that with common currencies, common rules (unrelated to trading), having our fishing rights and border rights taken away.  There was even talk of a common defence force ...........

Trouble is it never was meant to be just a trading block.

[Penelope]

10 hours ago, welsh1 said:

Other countries in the EU are having bigger problems with inflation, and their growth forcasts are behind the uk's.
When we were in the eu we couldn't just create a trade partnership with another country, it had to be sanctioned by the eu, who often said no unless they got a cut, now we are free to join other trade blocks around the world the pan asian one being recent and the potential to be huge. the problem with this country is people who moan because they didn't get their way and don't want to be part of a democratic desision.

So you spend 10 mins longer in customs when going to europe, I went on the trike to france a month ago it was no slower than when i went in the car 16 years ago, and £7 for a visa, most of you spend that on coffee each day, most countries charge it, heck most people in london are robbed of £12 every day with a congestion charge.

We are out of the EU, we still trade with them because that's what countries do, and both sides of that trade have rules.

The only thing that is bad about leaving the eu is the stupid politicians who didn't sort it out, thy are to blame for the stupid situation we find ourselves in over parts of the leaving agreament, and peope who whinge on and on about how bad everything is and how their 3rd born will be denied the change to know what "freedom" to roam in europe was like (as if they care).

👍

[CaptC]

12 hours ago, oowee said:

There are none. There is simply nothing positive. We cannot do as we want because we want to trade, we live in a global market place. The world belongs to the strong. The weak just get kicked around the playground. 

We have our sovereignty 🤣 What is that???? 

For crying out loud its costing us thousands in inflation, loss of trade, loss of opportunity, restriction of freedoms. Now we are outside of the club following the rules of others that we have no control over. The trade deals are carp, we are turned over like a right kipper. All as we can do is moan about immigrants when the biggest issue is those that were born here shafting us for some fantasy. 

Well written!

[12gauge82]

1 minute ago, CaptC said:

Well written!

It is well written, it doesn't make it correct though. 

[Vince Green]

All this talk about the wonderful trading opportunities we had in the EU is largely not true.

When we entered the common market all those years ago we were selling more into Europe than we were buying back. Good for us we were making a profit out of being a member

By the time we left we were the other way. We were trading at a loss. They were selling a lot more to us than they were buying off us.

The problem is that since we left nothing has changed. We are still buying all those goods off the EU 

[Raja Clavata]

26 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

All this talk about the wonderful trading opportunities we had in the EU is largely not true.

When we entered the common market all those years ago we were selling more into Europe than we were buying back. Good for us we were making a profit out of being a member

By the time we left we were the other way. We were trading at a loss. They were selling a lot more to us than they were buying off us.

The problem is that since we left nothing has changed. We are still buying all those goods off the EU 

Things have changed, it’s now more difficult to export into the EU than it was previously. 
It’s not the primary cause of our trade deficit of course but it certainly doesn’t help. 
In June this year we exported £31.2B and imported £56.3B.
Year on year our exports decreased by 10.6% and our imports increased by 6.38%.

On a personal level my main issue with Brexit is inconvenience when travelling, first world problems but my 6 year old passport is rapidly running out of stamp space. Two summers ago I waited longer in the “others” passport queue at Barcelona than I spent on the plane getting there. Coming back from Portugal on Monday my passport would not go through the e-gate and I had to join the others queue, in the end in order to not miss my flight I had jump a queue of around 200 people, one of whom briefly postured to block me - narrowly avoiding physical conflict. I made the flight but my bag had already been taken off the plane, bag was delivered to my home yesterday evening.

Please tell me how any of our lives have been improved by Brexit?

BTW, we also apparently imported £5.79B of gold in June this year, who’s buying it?

PS numbers quoted from the OEC website.

[old man]

14 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Easy, we have our sovereignty back. The country is ours to make good or mess up again. In the EU it wasn't. 

Maybe the only situation now relates to a direct comparison of stupid politicians?

[enfieldspares]

18 hours ago, CaptC said:

Johnson Mogg Davies etc all lied about the "Brexit benifits" - Can anyone give an example of just one? Cornwall was promised equal funding which never appeared. Farmers and fishermen were conned. Their markets shrank overnight and many have gone out of business. Brexit was the worst mistake this country has ever made and I cannot understand Brexiteers still thinking it was a good idea.

The very very clear downside of membership of Blair's enlarged EU is however never much spoken of by the Remainers. That the then lawful and massive influx or working age men and women from the former "Warsaw Pact" nations enabled employers to keep wages down. 

Freedom of movement worked for many in the UK, in France, in Belgium in Germany only one way. Cheap manual labour workers came in to keep wages low and many traditional "metal bashing" high wage industries went East. Thus the closure by many car manufacturers of their western European factories and their relocation east.

The issue of Brexit and Leave or Remain had never, outside the Westminster political claque been much of an issue until the 2004 and 2007 enlargements and subsequent. Post that date and the three year transition period ending when full ability of nationals form Eastern Europe to take employment throughout the issue become mainstream.

Plus the failure of the UK to rigorously apply the EU Rules on access to benefits or ability to remain here "without demonstrable means of support" by non-employed third party nationals of those 2004 and 2007 accession states. 

I am glad that Labour seems to reject the proposed "young persons mobility scheme" as I think it will overall not benefit our UK young people who, once again, will suffer the consequence of it being a vehicle to hold down wages.

Had the EU not enlarged in 2004 and 2007 I think that Farage and that ilk would have made little capital out of "EU bashing". By agreeing to that enlargement I will always think that Major and Blair in fact sowed the seeds of that discontent that was then exploited by Farage to give within but a decade the unfortunate UK Referendum.

Edited August 30 by enfieldspares

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, As I see it there is no reason why any Country should not trade with the UK , Just because we left the EU should not matter but seems some of those Countries got the Huff !!!!, Many EU companies will not now sell to UK residents !!!!, I know many on shooting forums want to buy only to be told NO !!!!!, I wish we had a better deal with the USA, it seem red tape and import duty is a bain to UK buyers, although not shooting related much of our imports are Chinese goods, some good some bad, Now you can buy Direct and cheaper which is not helping our UK shops and Companies but maybe that is why when you look on web sites , No Stock !!!!, Not sure what the answer particular for buying from the EU  but it is not going away any time soon,

[old man]

13 hours ago, oowee said:

It's easy to get higher growth from a low base.

We can of course create trade deals with whoever. Iceland, and Australia wont give us much but crack on. The same with other trade blocks. Our big partner (the big money) is next door but we choose to make trade so much harder. Listen to any business that is trading with the EU what are they saying?

Customs and passport control 🤣🤣🤣 Who cares its small beer? Erasmus, freedom of movement and education and research, recognition of qualifications is big beer. 

Pan Asian trade 🤣🤣🤣 Please. Next we will be saying we want to cut down on immigration. 

We still trade with the EU. Larger companies follow the rules and the smaller ones pay the price. We have lost thousands upon thousands of jobs. Look at how the tax pips are squeaking and yet our country is falling apart. 

The only thing bad about leaving the EU was leaving the EU. 

 

If only our sad weak politicians were more robust about everything other than their pay, conditions and expenses?

[udderlyoffroad]

19 hours ago, CaptC said:

I was lucky enough to spend a month in Spain and France recently. Supermarket shelves bulging with fruit and veg that doesn't rot as soon as you get home. Wine prices over half what we pay in the UK. 

Do you go on holiday to Tuscany and complain about the price of a decent bottle of IPA in the supermarket there too? 🤣

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

On a personal level my main issue with Brexit is inconvenience when travelling, first world problems but my 6 year old passport is rapidly running out of stamp space.

My arrival in Schipol last week was quicker than the EU queue; as they’re fighting with e-gates, I went to a friendly blonde Koninklijke Marechaussee gendarmette and was stamped in no time.

Really does depend on the given port of entry.  Only place I've had problems was er...Munich, where the EU and Non-EU queues were ummm, merged to one queue which were then served by multiple counters.  Only, at one counter, the genius Bundespolizist was insistent on calling forward EU only passports causing utter chaos.  All his colleagues just called up the next person.

Frankly I've had bigger problems caused by very obvious remoaners, talking very loudly about how they didn't vote for this and how embarrassed they were to be British...to anyone who will listen.  Of course, only ever in English.  When I flew to Basel last year, the chap in front of me really excelled himself, those ignorant people not not knowing what they were voting for, etc ad nauseum.  He was seemingly blissfully unaware that 

a) the EU+Swiss queue to his left wasn't moving any faster

b) the Swiss have voted multiple times to reject EU membership

c) If he'd looked to his right, he'd have noticed a glass partition separating the Schengen and non-Schengen part of arrivals, with no checks and thus no queues.  One suspects he has no idea what the Schengen area is.

 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, old man said:

Maybe the only situation now relates to a direct comparison of stupid politicians?

Exactly that. The whole point to Brexit was taking back control. 

The UK is ours to make a success or mess of again. 

[old man]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Exactly that. The whole point to Brexit was taking back control. 

The UK is ours to make a success or mess of again. 

We don’t really do success here, the most frightening thing for a uk politico is to be accused of that?

Let's face it, the main qualification to be an mp seems to be to have a shoe in by a sponsor who is not looking for anyone brighter than they are, that would make the shoe in uncontrollable? 

[Raja Clavata]

2 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Do you go on holiday to Tuscany and complain about the price of a decent bottle of IPA in the supermarket there too? 🤣

My arrival in Schipol last week was quicker than the EU queue; as they’re fighting with e-gates, I went to a friendly blonde Koninklijke Marechaussee gendarmette and was stamped in no time.

Really does depend on the given port of entry.  Only place I've had problems was er...Munich, where the EU and Non-EU queues were ummm, merged to one queue which were then served by multiple counters.  Only, at one counter, the genius Bundespolizist was insistent on calling forward EU only passports causing utter chaos.  All his colleagues just called up the next person.

Frankly I've had bigger problems caused by very obvious remoaners, talking very loudly about how they didn't vote for this and how embarrassed they were to be British...to anyone who will listen.  Of course, only ever in English.  When I flew to Basel last year, the chap in front of me really excelled himself, those ignorant people not not knowing what they were voting for, etc ad nauseum.  He was seemingly blissfully unaware that 

a) the EU+Swiss queue to his left wasn't moving any faster

b) the Swiss have voted multiple times to reject EU membership

c) If he'd looked to his right, he'd have noticed a glass partition separating the Schengen and non-Schengen part of arrivals, with no checks and thus no queues.  One suspects he has no idea what the Schengen area is.

 

I concur on Munich passport control.

Unclear how the outspoken remoaner actually caused you any problems.

Also unclear why you’re using French to describe an experience in Holland but maybe that’s just my remoaner language ignorance 😂

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, enfieldspares said:

The very very clear downside of membership of Blair's enlarged EU is however never much spoken of by the Remainers. That the then lawful and massive influx or working age men and women from the former "Warsaw Pact" nations enabled employers to keep wages down. 

Freedom of movement worked for many in the UK, in France, in Belgium in Germany only one way. Cheap manual labour workers came in to keep wages low and many traditional "metal bashing" high wage industries went East. Thus the closure by many car manufacturers of their western European factories and their relocation east.

The issue of Brexit and Leave or Remain had never, outside the Westminster political claque been much of an issue until the 2004 and 2007 enlargements and subsequent. Post that date and the three year transition period ending when full ability of nationals form Eastern Europe to take employment throughout the issue become mainstream.

Plus the failure of the UK to rigorously apply the EU Rules on access to benefits or ability to remain here "without demonstrable means of support" by non-employed third party nationals of those 2004 and 2007 accession states. 

I am glad that Labour seems to reject the proposed "young persons mobility scheme" as I think it will overall not benefit our UK young people who, once again, will suffer the consequence of it being a vehicle to hold down wages.

Had the EU not enlarged in 2004 and 2007 I think that Farage and that ilk would have made little capital out of "EU bashing". By agreeing to that enlargement I will always think that Major and Blair in fact sowed the seeds of that discontent that was then exploited by Farage to give within but a decade the unfortunate UK Referendum.

Good post

In 2004 ten countries were allowed to join. Most were former Eastern Block countries and two more joined in 2007.

None of them were anywhere near able to meet the criteria for membership . With the exception perhaps of Poland they still wouldn't 

There was no discussion it was just done. Nobody that I know has ever explained or justified the reasons for allowing them to join

That however destroyed the 'level economic playing field' that was a constitutionally essential part of the EU.

After that we had to leave. No matter what the cost of leaving we could not remain

[oowee]

35 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Good post

In 2004 ten countries were allowed to join. Most were former Eastern Block countries and two more joined in 2007.

None of them were anywhere near able to meet the criteria for membership . With the exception perhaps of Poland they still wouldn't 

There was no discussion it was just done. Nobody that I know has ever explained or justified the reasons for allowing them to join

That however destroyed the 'level economic playing field' that was a constitutionally essential part of the EU.

After that we had to leave. No matter what the cost of leaving we could not remain

The very essence of the EU is free and fair trade with movement of labour. You protect your market by driving standards. Allowing free movement of labour increases the competitive advantage of the EU and keeps wage inflation balanced with economic growth, as labour moves to exploit demand. 

Leave the EU and we have a shortage of labour. Wage rates increase without increases in output. We increase inflation and our ability to compete declines. We are less able to protect our market as we have lost our market size. 

Now to compete we need to get leaner. We need to increase output which takes investment we don't have. Cut spending and benefits (including the NHS and pensions) so that we can start to compete on price by lowering standards,

living standards will ultimately decline and the associated social problems that go with it will increase. The gap between those that have and those that do not will inevitably increase as those that compete with knowledge prosper compared to those that compete on price. 

5 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, As I see it there is no reason why any Country should not trade with the UK , Just because we left the EU should not matter but seems some of those Countries got the Huff !!!!, Many EU companies will not now sell to UK residents !!!!, I know many on shooting forums want to buy only to be told NO !!!!!, I wish we had a better deal with the USA, it seem red tape and import duty is a bain to UK buyers, although not shooting related much of our imports are Chinese goods, some good some bad, Now you can buy Direct and cheaper which is not helping our UK shops and Companies but maybe that is why when you look on web sites , No Stock !!!!, Not sure what the answer particular for buying from the EU  but it is not going away any time soon,

China wants to overthrow the west. Every time we buy a Chinese product we hasten our own demise. Strong markets like the US and the EU are able to regulate Chinese production, pushing standards and ultimately closing the production gap. It's near impossible to avoid buying from China but the more the EU and the US insist on China raising its game the better off we all are. 

As an aside

I met a guy in Africa from Singapore. He purchased water pumps from China for water sprinklers for high rise buildings. He reckoned that his suppliers would overate the performance of there pumps as there was no standard of regulation. He in turn would rebrand the pumps and increase there performance by changing the pressure label to meet whatever was specified for a building. This is what an unregulated market free of red tape looks like. 

[Newbie to this]

[udderlyoffroad]

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Unclear how the outspoken remoaner actually caused you any problems.

Only because twice now, separate from the Basel incident, these bilious cretins have been so engaged in holding court with their fellow passengers, they’ve actually held everyone up because they haven’t noticed it’s their turn.

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Also unclear why you’re using French to describe an experience in Holland but maybe that’s just my remoaner language ignorance 😂

Unsurprisingly, I had to look up how to spell Koninklijke Marechaussee, also translated as the Royal Military Constabulary, is the national gendarmerie force of the Netherlands - according to Wikipedia.  Therefore I took a punt and assumed a female officer, in English, would be referred to as a Gendarmette - as we have no English word for it!

53 minutes ago, oowee said:

He purchased water pumps from China for water sprinklers for high rise buildings. He reckoned that his suppliers would overate the performance of there pumps as there was no standard of regulation.

If you, regardless of COO, believe manufacturer's pump curves for a safety critical application, then you're asking for trouble.

Always do a witnessed NPSH test (Net Pressure Suction Head), even for a European supply base.

[Yellow Bear]

17 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Always do a witnessed NPSH test (Net Pressure Suction Head), even for a European supply base

IIRC it was usually specified but that may have changed.

[udderlyoffroad]

50 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

IIRC it was usually specified but that may have changed.

Oh indeed, depending on your jurisdiction & application.

But this is getting rapidly into paid work territory so will gladly share my daily rate via pm 😂

[Yellow Bear]

45 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Oh indeed, depending on your jurisdiction & application.

But this is getting rapidly into paid work territory so will gladly share my daily rate via pm 😂

Sorry - no business here, I retired 10 years ago 

[old man]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

The very essence of the EU is free and fair trade with movement of labour. You protect your market by driving standards. Allowing free movement of labour increases the competitive advantage of the EU and keeps wage inflation balanced with economic growth, as labour moves to exploit demand. 

Leave the EU and we have a shortage of labour. Wage rates increase without increases in output. We increase inflation and our ability to compete declines. We are less able to protect our market as we have lost our market size. 

Now to compete we need to get leaner. We need to increase output which takes investment we don't have. Cut spending and benefits (including the NHS and pensions) so that we can start to compete on price by lowering standards,

living standards will ultimately decline and the associated social problems that go with it will increase. The gap between those that have and those that do not will inevitably increase as those that compete with knowledge prosper compared to those that compete on price. 

China wants to overthrow the west. Every time we buy a Chinese product we hasten our own demise. Strong markets like the US and the EU are able to regulate Chinese production, pushing standards and ultimately closing the production gap. It's near impossible to avoid buying from China but the more the EU and the US insist on China raising its game the better off we all are. 

As an aside

I met a guy in Africa from Singapore. He purchased water pumps from China for water sprinklers for high rise buildings. He reckoned that his suppliers would overate the performance of there pumps as there was no standard of regulation. He in turn would rebrand the pumps and increase there performance by changing the pressure label to meet whatever was specified for a building. This is what an unregulated market free of red tape looks like. 

Maybe if we gave less to every Tom, **** & Harry we would fare better? How some think this little place is responsible for the ills and needs to fund the world is beyond me.

I also hope the Singapore jockey had his collar felt?

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, old man said:

 

I also hope the Singapore jockey had his collar felt?

So do I. 

What was funny was that when we met him he talked of shooting pretty much everything everywhere. Later he admitted to just taking pics of things others shot for him. He took 75kg of meat back to Singapore for his chef but reckoned the best meat in the world was mountain reedbuck.

My pH offered to get one for him. Later that day the stuffed head of a mountain reedbuck was taken from the wall and photographed in the back of a buggy. It had wide open eyes and erect ears 🤣.

A gazzel was bagged and skinned as if it were a reed buck. Everyone was happy 🤣🤣🤣

[Vince Green]

17 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

 🤣

My arrival in Schipol last week was quicker than the EU queue; as they’re fighting with e-gates, I went to a friendly blonde Koninklijke Marechaussee gendarmette and was stamped in no time

 

When we arrived at Palma Majorca in June to join a cruise we just walked straight through. A man stamped our passports but didn't hold us up at all