Keir Starmer in Berlin to "reset" Brexit

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

My assumption is that if the Germans get this agreed then they won’t be paying us to recover our sunk costs. Happy to be wrong though?

If the Germans are serious about it and get it through then, regardless of its rights or wrongs, it just reinforces what a SoS our lot were/are.

Didn’t Starmer effectively coup de grace it, it’d hardly flown under the previous government?

Are the Germans seriously looking at it? Either way I’d reserve judgement on its viability pending more information. I assume  elements of the previous government and their legal teams viewed it as viable.

Whilst my humanistic views have eroded over time, regardless of legal and/or operational viability of the concept, the notion of sending people to a country we’ve previously given people from that country asylum to does not sit well with me.

If, and granted it’s a big if, if the Germans get this off the ground and it works (as I suspect it will if properly implemented [like so many things]) then boy oh boy there’ll be a storm.

It’ll be interesting to see what the EU and the ECHR make of it. That said, I’m sure the ECHR will find a way if there’s a German or French will involved.

Frankly, it smells of a liberal Euro elite German government trying to put a show on for their increasingly disgruntled electorate all the while knowing they’ll be doing F-all because Rwanda too deeply offends their liberal elite values regardless of obvious need staring them in the face.

Love to see what the German greens make of it.

[JohnfromUK]

11 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I suspect it will if properly implemented [like so many things]

It would have worked fine here if it wasn't blocked by a conspiracy of 'officials, lawyers and judges'.

[Raja Clavata]

I’ve not discussed with German friends or colleagues yet, we are prioritising the impact of their massive vehicle over-capacity. However my bet is it’s a publicity stunt.

The various reactions from opposition might  provide an indication of how “real” it is.

[old man]

On 05/09/2024 at 19:19, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Blimey, wouldn't that be quite astonishing if true............................

Brilliant use of the old well worn EU tactic, use someone else's money first?

[oowee]

21 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

I’ve not discussed with German friends or colleagues yet, we are prioritising the impact of their massive vehicle over-capacity. However my bet is it’s a publicity stunt.

The various reactions from opposition might  provide an indication of how “real” it is.

I see MG dumping cars on the market. 

Ambassador to UK saying its not true. Its some words that fell out of the mouth of a politician. 

 

[Vince Green]

Just now, oowee said:

I see MG dumping cars on the market. 

Ambassador to UK saying its not true. Its some words that fell out of the mouth of a politician. 

 

It's not just cars. China is dumping everything onto the Western markets in an attempt to destroy the traditional industrial bases around the world . The scary thing is they are succeeding.

[oowee]

On 28/08/2024 at 11:10, Vince Green said:

And I have a very strong suspicion that reset actually means reverse Brexit.

He always implied he would but was too evasive to actually put anything in his election manifesto

The question is, should my worst fears be confirmed, does he have a right to?

Gordon Brown had no mandate to sign the Lisbon Treaty but he did anyway 

I think that horse has bolted. Law has been changed.

On the contrary, Starmer has never implied he would reverse the decision. He has been emphatic that he would not. I am sure he is only too aware of the division it would cause. 

Hopefully we can find a work around for trade, and at least youth movement. 

Without an improved trade arrangement the economic decline will continue. 

1 minute ago, Vince Green said:

It's not just cars. China is dumping everything onto the Western markets in an attempt to destroy the traditional industrial bases around the world . The scary thing is they are succeeding.

This is bang on. China only survives on trade growth. The whole model is currently at risk with market slow down. Without growth China could easily collapse. A war over Taiwan could save the day. 

This is one reason why the war with Russia must be won. A war with Taiwan will end the living standard we currently enjoy. 

[12gauge82]

23 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

It would have worked fine here if it wasn't blocked by a conspiracy of 'officials, lawyers and judges'.

Would you mind explaining why you feel confident it will work? 

My opinion is it would have helped reduce numbers somewhat, it wouldnt stop it because too many would be arriving to stop illegal immigrants believing they had a good chance of getting to stay. It's like criminals, most only commit crime because they believe they are going to get away with it, yes they get caught occasionally, but 9 times out of 10 they're probably right. 

[Mungler]

48 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Would you mind explaining why you feel confident it will work? 

My opinion is it would have helped reduce numbers somewhat, it wouldnt stop it because too many would be arriving to stop illegal immigrants believing they had a good chance of getting to stay. It's like criminals, most only commit crime because they believe they are going to get away with it, yes they get caught occasionally, but 9 times out of 10 they're probably right. 

You only need to focus on the first 6 months - once it gets out and becomes common knowledge that there’s no getting in without passing the entrance exam and via a trip to Rwanda. The biggest draw to the UK (aside from the state handouts; nhs, housing, education) it’s the publicity sent back home over iPhones. 

We can’t afford state handouts anymore, when the state includes an additional million people from the rest of the world year on year. It’s simple mathematics and physics. Stop the free stuff and no one will want to come - it’s not like they’ll be coming for the weather and nicely tarmacced roads. 

By allowing uncontrolled mass immigration to continue we are all making ourselves poorer and less safe. 

 

[Rewulf]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

On the contrary, Starmer has never implied he would reverse the decision.

Not being funny, but Starmer is the king of reversing decisions, Capt U turn.
We surely arent basing a future non return to the EU on the fact that the captain says he wont ??

 

3 hours ago, oowee said:

This is one reason why the war with Russia must be won.

Im genuinely interested in why you think China not taking Taiwan, is based on Russia losing in Ukraine ?
I would say the only thing stopping China from doing what it wants with Taiwan is a loss of trade with the west, but on the flip side, what would the west replace China and Taiwans trade output with if, it sanctioned the bejesus out of the CCP ?

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Mungler said:

You only need to focus on the first 6 months - once it gets out and becomes common knowledge that there’s no getting in without passing the entrance exam and via a trip to Rwanda. The biggest draw to the UK (aside from the state handouts; nhs, housing, education) it’s the publicity sent back home over iPhones. 

We can’t afford state handouts anymore, when the state includes an additional million people from the rest of the world year on year. It’s simple mathematics and physics. Stop the free stuff and no one will want to come - it’s not like they’ll be coming for the weather and nicely tarmacced roads. 

By allowing uncontrolled mass immigration to continue we are all making ourselves poorer and less safe. 

 

Even so, with 1000 potential illegal immigrants arriving some days, just how many spaces are available and under the current legal system, how quickly could they be processed before the system was totally overwhelmed. What needs to happen is simple, leave the ECHR, make the necessary legal changes and then any migrant landing on UK beaches is immediately dropped back to France, that would guarantee an end of vile people smuggling, the loss of life of migrants drowning and protect the UK tax payers or potential UK victims of terrorism or other crimes. 

[12gauge82]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Not being funny, but Starmer is the king of reversing decisions, Capt U turn.
We surely arent basing a future non return to the EU on the fact that the captain says he wont ??

 

Im genuinely interested in why you think China not taking Taiwan, is based on Russia losing in Ukraine ?
I would say the only thing stopping China from doing what it wants with Taiwan is a loss of trade with the west, but on the flip side, what would the west replace China and Taiwans trade output with if, it sanctioned the bejesus out of the CCP ?

I would say it's crucial. China needs to see the west will not tolerate Russia pushing Ukraine around, I said before the start of the invasion while Russia was massing on Ukraines border, Nato should have held Ukrainian ground leaving a 10 mile buffer zone and made it very clear to Russia a war with them would mean a war with us, that Russia needed to withdraw its troops from the border and Nato would do the same, it would have left Russia with a chance of saving face as they were claiming at the time it was just a military exercise, they could have withdrawn and said they'd never planned on invading. 

Bottom line, if China sees Ukraine fold, they'll fancy their chance also banking on Nato being a paper tiger.

[Mungler]

30 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Even so, with 1000 potential illegal immigrants arriving some days, just how many spaces are available and under the current legal system, how quickly could they be processed before the system was totally overwhelmed. What needs to happen is simple, leave the ECHR, make the necessary legal changes and then any migrant landing on UK beaches is immediately dropped back to France, that would guarantee an end of vile people smuggling, the loss of life of migrants drowning and protect the UK tax payers or potential UK victims of terrorism or other crimes. 

I’m up for that. Probably cheaper too. 

Who’s going to do it? 😀

[12gauge82]

24 minutes ago, Mungler said:

I’m up for that. Probably cheaper too. 

Who’s going to do it? 😀

I think if they made it legal, there'd be a very long queue of willing volunteers. But seriously, the Navy/Marines, border force, or police would either be already capable or able to train to do it. They're rubber boats, it's really not that hard to do. 

[Vince Green]

Just now, Mungler said:

I’m up for that. Probably cheaper too. 

Who’s going to do it? 😀

If France had the common sense to see it, immediately returning the boat people to France every time would kill the whole problem stone dead in weeks. The migrants camping in Calais would realise it was hopeless and go elsewhere. Gradually the word would spread all the way back to where these people come from

France has given Starmer a flea in his ear this week about trying to negotiate 'a better relationship'  whatever that might mean? They don't want to find solutions.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

19 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

If France had the common sense to see it, immediately returning the boat people to France every time would kill the whole problem stone dead in weeks. The migrants camping in Calais would realise it was hopeless and go elsewhere. Gradually the word would spread all the way back to where these people come from

France has given Starmer a flea in his ear this week about trying to negotiate 'a better relationship'  whatever that might mean? They don't want to find solutions.

Please Vince, don't be so damned sensible.    

[Raja Clavata]

Has anyone looked at the number of asylum claims France have per year compared to us?

It may provide a clue as to why the French see the boat people coming to the UK as our problem and not theirs.

I’m not defending it or saying it’s right, it’s just how it is.

[oldypigeonpopper]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I would say it's crucial. China needs to see the west will not tolerate Russia pushing Ukraine around, I said before the start of the invasion while Russia was massing on Ukraines border, Nato should have held Ukrainian ground leaving a 10 mile buffer zone and made it very clear to Russia a war with them would mean a war with us, that Russia needed to withdraw its troops from the border and Nato would do the same, it would have left Russia with a chance of saving face as they were claiming at the time it was just a military exercise, they could have withdrawn and said they'd never planned on invading. 

Bottom line, if China sees Ukraine fold, they'll fancy their chance also banking on Nato being a paper tiger.

Hello, Good post, I think your right on Nato, We could have all stood firm on the Ukraine border, Would Russia have invaded then 🤔 As for China I do not think we have seen the last of the Conflict with Tawain

[old man]

5 hours ago, Mungler said:

You only need to focus on the first 6 months - once it gets out and becomes common knowledge that there’s no getting in without passing the entrance exam and via a trip to Rwanda. The biggest draw to the UK (aside from the state handouts; nhs, housing, education) it’s the publicity sent back home over iPhones. 

We can’t afford state handouts anymore, when the state includes an additional million people from the rest of the world year on year. It’s simple mathematics and physics. Stop the free stuff and no one will want to come - it’s not like they’ll be coming for the weather and nicely tarmacced roads. 

By allowing uncontrolled mass immigration to continue we are all making ourselves poorer and less safe. 

 

Your last paragraph seems to indicate the majority of opinion I find in general conversation,

Could be part of a strategy enabling easier control?

 

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Has anyone looked at the number of asylum claims France have per year compared to us?

It may provide a clue as to why the French see the boat people coming to the UK as our problem and not theirs.

I’m not defending it or saying it’s right, it’s just how it is.

Absolutely, to a degree, if I were French I'd be fuming with the UK, the main reason France is full of illegal immigrants is because of the UKs over generous benefits that attracts them here, via France. 

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

 

France has given Starmer a flea in his ear this week about trying to negotiate 'a better relationship'  whatever that might mean? They don't want to find solutions.

Good, let's hope we end up with the Brexit that was voted for. 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

Absolutely, to a degree, if I were French I'd be fuming with the UK, the main reason France is full of illegal immigrants is because of the UKs over generous benefits that attracts them here, via France. 

Good, let's hope we end up with the Brexit that was voted for. 

Apparently the French say the problem is our own fault as we have lax labour laws. 

[Vince Green]

12 minutes ago, oowee said:

Apparently the French say the problem is our own fault as we have lax labour laws. 

Which is true along with over generous benefits, a civil service that's not fit for purpose and bottomless legal aid to fund endless appeals

[Gordon R]

There was a time when Civil Servants were reasonably efficient and served the Government of the day. Far too woke and breaking the Civil Service Code. A few sackings of the top Civil Servants might serve to bring the rest of them back into line. They are a disgrace. Lions lead by donkeys.

[old man]

7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Which is true along with over generous benefits, a civil service that's not fit for purpose and bottomless legal aid to fund endless appeals

You missed out politicos with no common sense?

[Newbie to this]

6 hours ago, Gordon R said:

There was a time when Civil Servants were reasonably efficient and served the Government of the day. Far too woke and breaking the Civil Service Code. A few sackings of the top Civil Servants might serve to bring the rest of them back into line. They are a disgrace.

Spot on.