A new comers first gun ?

[Ultrastu]

So I thought  I'd consult the pw. Massive  . I'm taking my mate to a ground tomorrow to have a go at some clays .I'm gonna take my .410 ou and 12b auto .for us to have a shoot with and show him how it works and hopefully get him interested to  where he has said he fancies taking it up as a sport .he want to get his licence and buy a gun .to predominantly shoot clays ,and I suppose a bit of decoying every now and again ,with me might happen .

So to this end which calibre and type of gun would we recommend  for a newbie .obviously  a 12b ou is going be be first choice for the clays .but to my mind isn't the best gun for any hide work.

Would a semi auto be a better choice  

Or a pump  or maybe 20b or 28b .? 

Are there any solid arguments for a 20 b auto on a clay ground over 12b ou. ? Put this way I shoot clays about 6 - 10 per year  and I still don't feel the need for a 12b ou .

Over to you guys  .cheers 

Edited September 20 by Ultrastu

[enfieldspares]

My choice for a new shooter would be a gun that fits him or her and then decide on everything else. If he is going to shoot clays then most, if not all, registered grounds have a 28 gram limit on cartridges. So a 12 bore or a 20 bore would suffice. So after "fit" comes does the gun look in proportion to the user? A shortish barrel 20 bore on a big man looks like he's off to rob Post Offices. On the other hand a long 32" barrel 12 bore on a man under 5' 8" looks as if he's manhandling sections of North Sean pipeline.

At the local ground I use however the most popular gun is a 30" barrel O/U in 12 bore followed by a 32" barrel O/U in 12 bore. And those guys can all shoot well. Those that have recoil problems through health or injury seem now to have foresaken the 20 bore O/U for the 12 bore gas operated self-loading shotgun. What you never see anybody using are 26" barrel "Skeet" guns, pump action guns or excepting when I am there side-by-side guns. Nor 28 bore in any iteration.

So my advice for any man over 5' 10" tall would be a 30" O/U in 12 bore. For decoy shooting from a hide the self-loading shotgun has a lot to recommend it as by never having to be broken to load or unload it can ALWAYS be kept barrels up. Last by virtue of being the most popular calibre 12 bore cartridges will always be found cheaper, in general, and in a broader range than will 20 bore. And on a fox shoot at combine time little much beats a 12 bore with 36 gram of English #4.

Edited September 20 by enfieldspares

[Ultrastu]

Cheers .that makes perfect sense .

I like the  first priority over all .gun fit first.. maybe enjoyment should come into that also. I know I really like shooting an auto over a ou. I like the action , the speed,  the noise they make and the reduced recoil . After all you have to like shooting a gun to start with

👍 

[enfieldspares]

Apparently the folk where I shoot aren't keen at all on Beretta guns. They mostly favour Browning or Miroku. Quite vociferous about that some are. The ground shoots English Sporting but was originally se up exclusively for DTL and Olympic Trench as then then landowner was mad keen passionate on it. For sure nothing Skeet at all and never was. But English Sporting there is maybe 90% of what the cartridges get shot at. Within the Browning models there are differences. The 525 I think is what the old "Superposed" would morph into. The 425 and the 725 have slightly different action widths or depths. But you need to ask others what the merits are of the 525 vs 425 vs 725 as I know nothing! But they ARE different. Nobody however confuses the Medallist sold by Browning as being a "Browning Medallist". LOL!

Edited September 20 by enfieldspares

[ditchman]

if he wants to use the auto (not a good idea) ONLY PUT 1 ROUND IN AT A TIME   (ask me why i know)

[enfieldspares]

One last point. Everyone can miss testing targets and therefore such are useless in knowing if the gun fits or the shooter is using it to best advantage. So some simple low and slow going away and some simple slow springing teal and some simple straight incoming birds. 

[nobbyathome]

I started with a beretta 682 gold e 30 in o/u still use it for clays and hide I have a few others but that’s my go to gun 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Do NOT complicate things by getting him to use a pump action shotgun.

As DM says, if you do use an auto, ONLY LOAD ONE cartridge at a time, mind you, for a newbie that is good advice for any weapon.

Go to a ground that has "club guns" he can try.

[oldypigeonpopper]

hello, gun safety would be top of list first then borrow a 12 bore O/U that gives a good fit of LOP, Where do you clay shoot near Bristol ??

Edited September 21 by oldypigeonpopper

[TIGHTCHOKE]

So, then Stu, what are you going to do?

[HantsRob]

Mostly clay and a bit of decoy work. Two completely different requirements, it's bad enough with english sporting vs trap vs skeet!

 

Think of the perfect most amazing first lesson with an inspiring shooter, and what you want from it. Then consider what you need. Then consider what you don't want! For a first shoot, a standard gun off the rack is probably the least worrying aspect, however I would consider a "standard" gun like a silver pigeon or a 525 is usually best as an all round fit, rather than some other guns that aren't "stock measurements". I am still relatively new to the sport, so maybe some thoughts are fresher from my mind!

What do you want
75%+ hit rate (i.e. easier targets)
To feel like a badass 
To ensure everyone has fun, but keeps safe
To introduce someone without overwhelming
Give them the better hearing protectors if you have bins with mics. THEY need to hear better as the student
21g loads, not 28g
Have coffee and bacon on arrival, give your tense bodies time to relax after the drive

What do you need
Gun safety
Slow stands, so there's no pressure
Check eye dominance, and make sure they understand why you do what you do
FUN. It must be fun
Single shot targets. Maybe give an on report pair nearer the end, but for the bulk it should be single targets
Reassure every step of the way, and if they are missing lots, go find an easier practice stand. It's ok, remember the simplest rising teal to you seems dumb, but to them they'll feel like a boss to hit 8/8
Reset and stop if they miss 4 in a row. Talk about it. Let them relax. Re-teach but in a different way. Go again.

What you don't want
The reverse of many above items (busy ground with big queues etc)
Too many variables (I'd go 12g or 410 only, not both)
Mad Dave going with you, who contradicts you or gives different advice than you

 

Probably teaching you to suck eggs.

I LOVE my 20g gun, but it doesn't get much use on the clay ground. The shells are more expensive, and there's less lead in the air. It's fun, but I find the lighter gun a hinderance.

[Charliedog]

12b o/u 30inch

[Ultrastu]

2 hours ago, HantsRob said:

Mostly clay and a bit of decoy work. Two completely different requirements, it's bad enough with english sporting vs trap vs skeet!

 

Think of the perfect most amazing first lesson with an inspiring shooter, and what you want from it. Then consider what you need. Then consider what you don't want! For a first shoot, a standard gun off the rack is probably the least worrying aspect, however I would consider a "standard" gun like a silver pigeon or a 525 is usually best as an all round fit, rather than some other guns that aren't "stock measurements". I am still relatively new to the sport, so maybe some thoughts are fresher from my mind!

What do you want
75%+ hit rate (i.e. easier targets)
To feel like a badass 
To ensure everyone has fun, but keeps safe
To introduce someone without overwhelming
Give them the better hearing protectors if you have bins with mics. THEY need to hear better as the student
21g loads, not 28g
Have coffee and bacon on arrival, give your tense bodies time to relax after the drive

What do you need
Gun safety
Slow stands, so there's no pressure
Check eye dominance, and make sure they understand why you do what you do
FUN. It must be fun
Single shot targets. Maybe give an on report pair nearer the end, but for the bulk it should be single targets
Reassure every step of the way, and if they are missing lots, go find an easier practice stand. It's ok, remember the simplest rising teal to you seems dumb, but to them they'll feel like a boss to hit 8/8
Reset and stop if they miss 4 in a row. Talk about it. Let them relax. Re-teach but in a different way. Go again.

What you don't want
The reverse of many above items (busy ground with big queues etc)
Too many variables (I'd go 12g or 410 only, not both)
Mad Dave going with you, who contradicts you or gives different advice than you

 

Probably teaching you to suck eggs.

I LOVE my 20g gun, but it doesn't get much use on the clay ground. The shells are more expensive, and there's less lead in the air. It's fun, but I find the lighter gun a hinderance.

Thankyou very much excellent food for thought  .

I occasionally take family members out for a few clays over Xmas or in the summer  and the .410 ou .is what we use .everyone can shoot it with no problems and break targets at reasonable  ranges . I then have a pop at the tricky longer stuff just to show that even these wee 14 grm loads will break them if put in the right place .(I'm not talking 45 yd going away clays .)

Fun is usually  had by all .

The 12 b auto will come out after and we may borrow a 12 ou for comparison  .but only if the .410 is a success first .

And what I mean by that is .if he is enjoying it .breaking a few , being safe , wants more .

Thanks for your replies  .be be heading out soon .

[Ultrastu]

So just back .and the .410 was the perfect tool to start on .where safety,aim,gun mount and reading the bird were  the only things to think about .took him a while to learn the correct gun mount and site picture  then he started breaking clays . The struggled more with lead than anything else  

After that we took out the 12 b with 1/4 choke and twice as much lead in the cartridge , and his first few shots, he was surprised that he still had to put the gun in the right place and on target .and how much recoil they have over the .410 .

But soon everything he learned with the .410 transfered over to the 12b and he started hitting clays again and really hit them  centering them. 

We spent some money and had a great time learnt a new skill and broke some targets  .

Success . 

Will see what happens next 

 

[Scully]

12 bore OU 28” or 30” multi choke. Stick in skeet/skeet then give him time to learn to shoot with it.

Make and model is largely immaterial at this point in my opinion, but it HAS to be one he likes the look of rather than one that’ll ‘do’. 

[Ultrastu]

18 minutes ago, Scully said:

12 bore OU 28” or 30” multi choke. Stick in skeet/skeet then give him time to learn to shoot with it.

Make and model is largely immaterial at this point in my opinion, but it HAS to be one he likes the look of rather than one that’ll ‘do’. 

Thanks scully .that's I think exactly correct  we had a look at a few guns in the shop  and there was a nice 12b ou .ata sporter 30 inch barrel adjustable  combe sh at £600 nice gun .

But he gravitated towards the berrettas they are nice guns for sure but was surprised at how much you could pay ,  or for that much how little you can pay for a hatsan auto .

I thoroughly enjoyed myself today also and it didn't rain  which was great .

I actually shot pretty well .so didn't make a fool of myself  .though we did pick the easier targets  .

 

[Westley]

21 hours ago, ditchman said:

if he wants to use the auto (not a good idea) ONLY PUT 1 ROUND IN AT A TIME   (ask me why i know)

THIS is where the Instructor comes in. I use an auto a lot for first time shooters, in particular,  Corporate eventers. Most have never handled a gun before. We ALWAYS start off loading 1 round, but as the groups improve, I will load 2 cartridges into the gun. This then prepares them for the report pairs they are going to shoot in the 'mini competition ' to finish. The winner gets a trophy and Certificate. 

Throughout all of this I am in FULL control of the gun, I am ready to grab it at ALL times. They each have their own 2 boxes of cartridges, but I load the gun and close it whilst they are holding it. I will not close the gun until their trigger finger is outside the trigger guard. I have never experienced any hairy moments in over 40 years of Instructing, which included one young lady dropping the gun, after she fired her first shot. I had hold of it before she even let go of it.

[Ultrastu]

We actually only loaded 1 shot in the ou till right at the end when he had a couple of clays on the trot .when we started on the auto .same again 1 only till right at the end to finish on a pair  

Safe as houses .

To be fair he isn't new to shooting at all and does it professionally .but not shot gun shooting birds or clays  .

So safe gun handling isn't an issue . 

Just new to the rules of a clay ground .

[Westley]

2 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

Thanks scully .that's I think exactly correct  we had a look at a few guns in the shop  and there was a nice 12b ou .ata sporter 30 inch barrel adjustable  combe sh at £600 nice gun .

But he gravitated towards the berrettas they are nice guns for sure but was surprised at how much you could pay ,  or for that much how little you can pay for a hatsan auto .

I thoroughly enjoyed myself today also and it didn't rain  which was great .

I actually shot pretty well .so didn't make a fool of myself  .though we did pick the easier targets  .

 

The Armsan auto is a better buy. I know of a couple in use by Instructors and they seem reliable and not really 'ammunition fussy '.

[Ultrastu]

I love mine its been perfect for years now .

[London Best]

3 hours ago, Ultrastu said:

But he gravitated towards the berrettas they are nice guns for sure but was surprised at how much you could pay ,  or for that much how little you can pay for a hatsan auto .

 

Did he realise you could actually pay £80k for a Beretta O/U?

[enfieldspares]

16 hours ago, London Best said:

Did he realise you could actually pay £80k for a Beretta O/U?

Or knock three noughts off and pay £80 for a Lanber! LOL!

[steve1066]

On 21/09/2024 at 10:20, HantsRob said:

Mostly clay and a bit of decoy work. Two completely different requirements, it's bad enough with english sporting vs trap vs skeet!

 

Think of the perfect most amazing first lesson with an inspiring shooter, and what you want from it. Then consider what you need. Then consider what you don't want! For a first shoot, a standard gun off the rack is probably the least worrying aspect, however I would consider a "standard" gun like a silver pigeon or a 525 is usually best as an all round fit, rather than some other guns that aren't "stock measurements". I am still relatively new to the sport, so maybe some thoughts are fresher from my mind!

What do you want
75%+ hit rate (i.e. easier targets)
To feel like a badass 
To ensure everyone has fun, but keeps safe
To introduce someone without overwhelming
Give them the better hearing protectors if you have bins with mics. THEY need to hear better as the student
21g loads, not 28g
Have coffee and bacon on arrival, give your tense bodies time to relax after the drive

What do you need
Gun safety
Slow stands, so there's no pressure
Check eye dominance, and make sure they understand why you do what you do
FUN. It must be fun
Single shot targets. Maybe give an on report pair nearer the end, but for the bulk it should be single targets
Reassure every step of the way, and if they are missing lots, go find an easier practice stand. It's ok, remember the simplest rising teal to you seems dumb, but to them they'll feel like a boss to hit 8/8
Reset and stop if they miss 4 in a row. Talk about it. Let them relax. Re-teach but in a different way. Go again.

What you don't want
The reverse of many above items (busy ground with big queues etc)
Too many variables (I'd go 12g or 410 only, not both)
Mad Dave going with you, who contradicts you or gives different advice than you

 

Probably teaching you to suck eggs.

I LOVE my 20g gun, but it doesn't get much use on the clay ground. The shells are more expensive, and there's less lead in the air. It's fun, but I find the lighter gun a hinderance.

Well done HantsRob, lot of effort and thought gone into that reply.

[Acerforestry]

When i first enquired on here which gun was likely to be a sensible choice for a novice, more than one reply came back "go  for over and under". Before actually trying any guns out I opted for semi autos purely on whim, and later down the line have realised I'll actually shoot better with an over and under. I also recall at least one post on that thread mentioning longer barrels being generally prefeable. Its a pain chopping and changing later

Edited October 5 by Acerforestry