Gloucestershire suspending certificate applications

[Smudger687]

Womp womp. This is what happens when firearms ownership is a privilege. 

[HantsRob]

1 hour ago, bruno22rf said:

Bet there are plenty of "Road safety vans" about though??

That's a bit of a silly comment, as that's part of the safer roads partnership. Most of the funding comes from outside of the police and is funded by local councils, and whilst the vans and staff may be managed by Police estates, the main funding is NOT through the Police. All profits also do NOT go to the Police, they all go to central government.

An example and also evidence of this:

https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/lincolnshire-road-safety-partnership/lincolnshire-road-safety-partnership-1

 

Finally, as someone who has attended far too many road deaths, I can say that if one "Road safety van" prevents 1 death, I welcome it. Funnily enough, they only catch people who exceed the speed limit. It is funded by the PCC, and not the Police. Whether you see them as the same or not, is up to you.

[bruno22rf]

3 hours ago, HantsRob said:

That's a bit of a silly comment, as that's part of the safer roads partnership. Most of the funding comes from outside of the police and is funded by local councils, and whilst the vans and staff may be managed by Police estates, the main funding is NOT through the Police. All profits also do NOT go to the Police, they all go to central government.

An example and also evidence of this:

https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/lincolnshire-road-safety-partnership/lincolnshire-road-safety-partnership-1

 

Finally, as someone who has attended far too many road deaths, I can say that if one "Road safety van" prevents 1 death, I welcome it. Funnily enough, they only catch people who exceed the speed limit. It is funded by the PCC, and not the Police. Whether you see them as the same or not, is up to you.

And the money for firearms licences comes from the guys shooting? I honestly believe that road safety is not the priority of these vans/departments - when you consider that just being the width of your speedo's needle over the limit will get you a fine and points. I have always believed that a man doing 35 in a 30 and concentrating on the road is far safer than someone staring at their speedo to make sure they are doing 29-30mph.All down to opinion of course and I understand and respect yours 100%.

[armsid]

Connor, this is why licensing needs to be done away from the police pity BASC and other orgs. cannot do something themselves at least the guidance would be adhered to

[HantsRob]

15 hours ago, bruno22rf said:

And the money for firearms licences comes from the guys shooting? I honestly believe that road safety is not the priority of these vans/departments - when you consider that just being the width of your speedo's needle over the limit will get you a fine and points. I have always believed that a man doing 35 in a 30 and concentrating on the road is far safer than someone staring at their speedo to make sure they are doing 29-30mph.All down to opinion of course and I understand and respect yours 100%.

Absolutely not, I agree with you that the cost is not covered by the shooter in its entirety. 

I will PM you separately, however I think that road safety partnership vans can be an excellent way to highlight accident hotspots and to reduce road fatalities. I do however agree that they are too absolute, and do not factor in road conditions, volume of traffic, safe driving etc. I do think they are often deployed for revenue rather than road safety.

Final comment before moving back to the topic, is that 30 is not a target. So, I believe a man doing 25-30 in a 30 and not constantly looking at a speedo is preferable to both. That said I do respect your sentiment, and mostly agree that someone giving 100% road attention is better than speedo looking. My reservation to that is if your car shows 35mph, the camera van probably won't zap at 35. If you are caught doing 10%+2 in a 30, so truespeed by physics showing 35, I would suggest the car is showing 37/38.

 

11 hours ago, armsid said:

Connor, this is why licensing needs to be done away from the police pity BASC and other orgs. cannot do something themselves at least the guidance would be adhered to

I don't think that's necessarily the answer. Medcert was the golden ticket til it got busy! Police don't have to be held accountable for financial spend in that respect, but a for-profit company would soon give different issues. 

I think it needs regulation and SLAs, but that again comes with risk for the shooter.

 

Damned if you do.....

Edited November 14 by HantsRob

[Conor O'Gorman]

14 hours ago, armsid said:

Connor, this is why licensing needs to be done away from the police pity BASC and other orgs. cannot do something themselves at least the guidance would be adhered to

We await the outcome of last year's firearms licensing consultation and BASC's response is here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/BASC-response-to-Home-Office-firearms-consultation-final.pdf

In addition to addressing the consultation proposals BASC made various additional points/recommendations, including the following:

BASC recommends that those Chief Officers who do not run efficient FELUs should be subject to financial penalties. This should be tied into mandatory service level agreements. BASC defines an efficient force as one that completes all renewal applications received eight weeks prior to expire before the certificate expires. Also, more than 95% of grant applications would be processed within sixteen weeks.

BASC endorses the remarks made by HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Andy Cooke QPM DL, that the Chief Inspector should have the ability to give directions, rather than recommendations, to police forces where an inspection identifies a failing that poses a significant risk to public safety (Page 32 of “State of Policing in England and Wales 2022, published June 2023). This is particularly apposite where firearms licensing is concerned.

BASC believes that there should be a Firearms Licensing Regulator, akin to the Forensic Science Regulator, with statutory powers to compel Chief Officers to adopt best practice and correct any failings in their FELUs.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Article in Cotswold Journal:

https://www.cotswoldjournal.co.uk/news/24720337.gloucestershire-police-stop-applications-gun-licences/

 

[vmaxphil]

With only 3 firearms officers for the whole of Gloucestershire no wonder it takes ages for renewals and grants, now it seems they have only 1 left !

[MrPhantom]

I've just applied for my certificate renewal with Gloucestershire Constabulary. The email guidance recommends you apply at least 9 weeks before expiration date. Mine runs out in February so fingers crossed.

[Conor O'Gorman]

3 hours ago, vmaxphil said:

With only 3 firearms officers for the whole of Gloucestershire no wonder it takes ages for renewals and grants, now it seems they have only 1 left !

Yes, apparently, the firearms licensing department only had three FEOs and then one quit and another went on sick leave and this has led to the resourcing crisis the force finds itself in. If a larger team had been in place with the resilience to cope with staff turnover then arguably this would never have happened.
 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Progress is being made thanks to forum members and others contacting the Gloucestershire PCC and Gloucestershire MPs. 

 

The PCC is replying to people that contacted him explaining that he has had a great number of communications about this issue, that the Assistant Chief Constable and the Constabulary are working very hard to resolve this issue promptly, that interim personnel are being brought in urgently to help with backlogs, and that the temporary suspension will not be for 24 months but more likely a few weeks. The announcement on the force website has been amended. 

https://www.gloucestershire.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/fi/af/g/firearms-licensing-service-update/ 

Labour MP Matt Bishop has raised the issue in the House of Commons and written to the Home Secretary, Policing Minister, and the Interim Gloucestershire Chief Constable.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2024-11-14/debates/24A092DC-5CE1-49A3-B886-815E3431C8CA/details 

 

PCC Chris Nelson update in full:

 

Thank you for contacting my office. I have had a great number of communications about this firearms licencing issue, and have taken immediate steps to look into what has led to this position and why the Constabulary has taken this decision. 

 

I understand and sympathise with your frustration, but would like to assure you that the situation is not as you may have seen reported, in part due to some miscommunication and an error on the Constabulary website.

 

To be clear, the processing of licence renewals will continue, but there is a temporary pause on accepting new applications at this time. After taking your concerns, and those of others to the Constabulary, I have been assured by the Assistant Chief Constable that the Constabulary is working very hard to resolve this issue promptly. The notice of suspension of new licence grants was issued following sudden personnel shortages, which are mainly due to medical reasons. However this suspension will not be for two years, as you may have seen, but is likely to be a matter of just a few weeks. They are also working hard to clear the backlog of applications, but this may take some time to eventually resolve.

 

I understand that interim personnel are being brought in urgently, and while the Constabulary, rightly, will be prioritising licence renewals first, I have been assured that exceptions are being made for new applications where the licence is needed for employment or elite sport purposes. 

 

In the meantime, I will continue to hold the Constabulary to account to ensure normal service is resumed as soon as possible. I have already informed shooting organisations and our Members of Parliament about this plan, and will do the same again when this situation has been resolved.

 

I hope this helps address your concerns, 

 

Yours sincerely, 

 

Chris Nelson

Police and Crime Commissioner for Gloucestershire

 

Matt Bishop MP update in full:

I hope you are well. Thank you for contacting me about Gloucestershire Constabulary’s sudden suspension of firearms license applications and the delay of at least 24 months if you have already submitted your application. I am fully aware of the detrimental impact this can have on your livelihoods, both personally and professionally, and due to this I asked a question in the House of Commons Chamber to the Leader of the House Lucy Powell, asking how the government can support business owners during this disruption. 

I have also sent a letter to the Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper MP, the Policing Minister, Dame Diana Johnson and the Interim Gloucestershire Chief Constable Maggie Blyth to express my dismay at this issue and urging them to take suitable, immediate action. It is deeply frustrating that law-abiding firearms owners and businesses are being subjected to these unreasonable delays, which not only cause financial strain but also undermine confidence in the efficiency of the licensing process. I have made it clear in my communications that these delays are unacceptable, and that urgent action is needed to restore order and efficiency to the system. 

Please rest assured that I will continue to push for answers and work to ensure that the government takes immediate and meaningful steps to resolve this situation. In the meantime, I encourage you to keep me informed of any further developments or specific issues you are encountering, as this will help me in my ongoing efforts to highlight the impact of these delays on your business and others like it. 

Thank you once again for bringing this matter to my attention. I remain committed to supporting you and your industry in any way I can, and I shall inform you of any progress in due course. 

Yours sincerely, 

Matt Bishop MP
Member of Parliament for the Forest of Dean
House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA

[oowee]

@Conor O'Gorman Has BASC seen a case for centralising the whole firearms licencing process?

[Conor O'Gorman]

4 hours ago, oowee said:

@Conor O'Gorman Has BASC seen a case for centralising the whole firearms licencing process?

The jury is out on that one. That has been considered by BASC and I have also written articles about it myself to garner feedback, and also discussed on this and other forums at length in the past, and many pros and cons postulated and many views given.

A starting point is to consider at what level we would want to see things centralised? England? England and Wales? England, Wales and Scotland? UK? Who would administer this and with what oversight in place? Consider that governments are currently moving to decentralise statutory decision making. 

As things stand we await the outcome of last year's firearms licensing consultation and BASC's response is here:

https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/BASC-response-to-Home-Office-firearms-consultation-final.pdf

In addition to addressing the consultation proposals BASC made various additional points/recommendations, including the following:

BASC recommends that those Chief Officers who do not run efficient FELUs should be subject to financial penalties. This should be tied into mandatory service level agreements. BASC defines an efficient force as one that completes all renewal applications received eight weeks prior to expire before the certificate expires. Also, more than 95% of grant applications would be processed within sixteen weeks.

BASC endorses the remarks made by HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Andy Cooke QPM DL, that the Chief Inspector should have the ability to give directions, rather than recommendations, to police forces where an inspection identifies a failing that poses a significant risk to public safety (Page 32 of “State of Policing in England and Wales 2022, published June 2023). This is particularly apposite where firearms licensing is concerned.

BASC believes that there should be a Firearms Licensing Regulator, akin to the Forensic Science Regulator, with statutory powers to compel Chief Officers to adopt best practice and correct any failings in their FELUs.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Thank you for the update, keep at 'em, it really does need sorting out.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Thanks @TIGHTCHOKE

Coverage in today's Shooting Times:

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/gloucestershire-police-urged-to-reverse-unlawful-move-149626/ 

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Update from office of Cameron Thomas, MP for Tewkesbury:

 

Thank you for your email. Firstly let me apologise for the delay in replying. I have been waiting to get confirmation from various bodies on meetings with Cameron regarding this matter.

 

Cameron is aware of the many issues that Gloucestershire Constabulary are facing at the moment and has been liaising with other local MPs and the Police and Crime Commissioner. He has also spoken to members of the police and crime panel (for Gloucestershire) and we are pushing for a meeting with the interim Chief Constable.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC update from Bill Harriman

https://basc.org.uk/both-barrels-the-state-of-firearms-licensing/

 

 

[mossy835]

well done BASC

[Conor O'Gorman]

On 26/11/2024 at 15:40, mossy835 said:

well done BASC

Thanks @mossy835

Some good news. Deputy PCC Nick Evans has sent the following update to people that had contacted the PCC office.

Our Office has been informed by the interim Chief Constable that grant applications will now be reopened on 2nd December 2024. 

 

Firearms licensing is a highly specialised role and one that requires tight statutory oversight. The Constabulary are recruiting new administrators, intelligence staff and Firearms License Officers to bring the team back up to strength. This will come with a lead time as they select suitable individuals, ensure appropriate vetting and then train them to perform the role. As these new people settle in to their roles, the Constabulary will continue to process renewals of existing licences and prioritise grants for those who need licences for occupational reasons. 

 

We will continue to monitor this situation closely, and I hope this update is helpful.

 

Yours faithfully, 

 

Nick Evans

Deputy Police and Crime Commissioner for Gloucestershire

 

This progress underlines the value of people getting involved in a campaign. Thanks to the PW members that took the time to contact their MP and/or PCC office.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Good news, well done BASC.   

[wymberley]

On 06/11/2024 at 07:44, JohnfromUK said:

Something is 'going on' in Gloucestershire Constabulary (my neighbouring force) and the Chief Constable and other seniors (inc his Deputy CC?) have been suspended by the Police and Crime Commissioner.  Not sure what is going on, but there appears to be a lot of heavy internal politics (and very little policing).  Understandably (with the leadership in turmoil), there are said to be both morale and recruitment problems

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/civic-chiefs-kept-dark-nine-9686948

Seems to be catching - something in the water?

Second Devon and Cornwall Police chief suspended - Plymouth Live

[JohnfromUK]

55 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Seems to be catching - something in the water?

Second Devon and Cornwall Police chief suspended - Plymouth Live

I think (personal view) it does have an 'underlying reason'.

The people filling these high posts (and I think this applies to 'Public Sector' posts more than 'Private Sector') are nowadays usually 'fast track high achievers' rather than worked their way up by experience and merit.  It is questionable whether such a person can really understand the job at street level properly.  They have a high level of academic qualification and have often moved through lots of different posts and moved regions or areas as part of their relentless quest for ascending the greasy pole.  They are highly motivated by ambition for 'position' (which includes status, power, and money.pensions etc.).  Often ambition seems to override truth, loyalty, and 'decency'.  If you move posts very frequently, you can shed a lot of dirty laundry as you go. 

There has also been a case of a high ranking police officer (former Chief Constable of Northamptonshire) wearing medals which he had not been awarded.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/jun/21/police-chief-nick-adderley-gross-misconduct-falklands-war-medal

You see it slightly differently in politicians, recent examples;

• There is clearly something very dubious about Rachel Reeves claims of past career history in her (now deleted) CV.
• There was also a red face about a book she had 'written' which was later shown to have large part plagiarised from other writers works
• The present resignation by Louise Haigh is also very strange.  Odd for someone (who knows about police procedures as she was a special constable) to plead guilty if she was innocent. 
• There is no doubt that Johnson and Matt Hancock have little understanding of what 'truth' means
• Starmer was quite happy to complain about others receiving 'free gifts' whilst happily free-loading himself with a range of gifts

the list is a long one and covers all parties.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC update on Gloucestershire firearms licensing:

https://basc.org.uk/gloucestershire-firearms-grant-applications-to-resume-after-basc-pressure/

 

[Fil]

Just read the report. Well done all involved. 

[Fellside]

1 hour ago, Conor O'Gorman said:

BASC update on Gloucestershire firearms licensing:

https://basc.org.uk/gloucestershire-firearms-grant-applications-to-resume-after-basc-pressure/

 

Great work - well done!