Trump and Zelensky Oval Office meeting

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

For a number of reasons. 

Because I've never had someone in my home that if I threw them out world peace could be at steak. 

Zelensky has consistently asked for NATO boots on the ground in Ukraine to help him fight Russia, recently he has also mused about acquiring nukes...
So, he would like a direct confrontation between NATO and Russia, he wants a hot war, not the proxy he has now.
Please tell me how that helps 'world peace' ?

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Using you analogy, If you did have a rude guest would you get in a shouting match with them, or would you just not invite them again. 

No I would kick them out.
Zelensky has borrowed billions from the US, not only does he argue over the figures, he DEMANDS more, and balks at the thought of paying any of it back, then insults the office of POTUS ?
The man should have been there cap in hand, and ready to agree to the mineral deal, instead he ends up in a slanging match that he could never win.
A bit like the war he can never win, but he never seems to learn.
I dont know what drugs hes on, but his sense of entitlement and superiority are nauseating.

[Gordon R]

When Zelensky went ballistic at the American envoy, I don't recall much of an outcry and condemnation. Trump and Vance did not shout and scream at Zelensky. 

Total double standards.

Vitali Klitschko would be better for Ukraine in my book. He believes in Parliamentary democracy, whereas Zelensky merely ignores his own Parliament.

[12gauge82]

I think focusing on a dislike for Zelensky and the wrongs or rights of what he has done, or how corrupt Ukraine is or isn't misses the huge elephant in the room which is that Russia has launched an invasion of a sovereign country, despite Putins thinly vield excuses has his eyes on a land grab and would love nothing more than to reclaim the land lost by the USSR and allowing him to succeed will only in enbolden China and others. 

As for Trump, I agree with many of his policies, I agree Europe including the UK has utterly neglected it's duty to fund their own militarys especially in the case of some EU countries and ensure Europe's safety I totally understand why our friends in America are sick of us relying on them and their money. But Trumps behaviour the other day was totally out of order and will only fuel our collective enemy's confidence to challenge the existing world order, where the USA has the most to loose. 

[JohnfromUK]

22 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think focusing on a dislike for Zelensky and the wrongs or rights of what he has done, or how corrupt Ukraine is or isn't misses the huge elephant in the room which is that Russia has launched an invasion of a sovereign country, despite Putins thinly vield excuses has his eyes on a land grab and would love nothing more than to reclaim the land lost by the USSR and allowing him to succeed will only in enbolden China and others. 

As for Trump, I agree with many of his policies, I agree Europe including the UK has utterly neglected it's duty to fund their own militarys especially in the case of some EU countries and ensure Europe's safety I totally understand why our friends in America are sick of us relying on them and their money. But Trumps behaviour the other day was totally out of order and will only fuel our collective enemy's confidence to challenge the existing world order, where the USA has the most to loose.

I agree, and also

19 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

or how corrupt Ukraine is

Ukraine isn't very well placed on the World Corruption order, (104=), but Russia is well below at 154=

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corruption-rank

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think focusing on a dislike for Zelensky and the wrongs or rights of what he has done, or how corrupt Ukraine is or isn't misses the huge elephant in the room which is that Russia has launched an invasion of a sovereign country, despite Putins thinly vield excuses has his eyes on a land grab and would love nothing more than to reclaim the land lost by the USSR and allowing him to succeed will only in enbolden China and others. 

Lets look at this 'elephant' 
Between 2014, and the attacks against the separatists in Donbas, and the Russian invasion in 2022, there was multiple opportunities for Russia to 'land grab' Ukraine.
Directly after the 2014 coup would have been ideal.
The armed forces of Ukraine were in disarray, and the west had not yet armed them, and it wouldnt have been hard to 'land grab' the entire country, yet they didnt ?

As far as China goes, this conflict has only pushed Russia towards China, exposed western weaknesses in military and diplomatic strength.

45 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Ukraine isn't very well placed on the World Corruption order, (104=), but Russia is well below at 154=

The difference is, we KNOW Russias bad at democracy and corruption, but somehow we believe Ukraine to be perfectly suitable not only for EU membership, but also NATO ?

[clangerman]

6 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

For a number of reasons. 

Because I've never had someone in my home that if I threw them out world peace could be at steak. 

Assuming Zelensky was being rude and it wasn't just a language barrier, Trump and his team were also rude

Using you analogy, If you did have a rude guest would you get in a shouting match with them, or would you just not invite them again. 

slung the last fool out with an offer of a smack in the teeth only danger to peace are the idiots cheering to fund Zelenskyy while their own people go without if we had kept out fat nose out it would have been over in days cue worn out Russian threat record! 

[hushpower]

[old man]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think focusing on a dislike for Zelensky and the wrongs or rights of what he has done, or how corrupt Ukraine is or isn't misses the huge elephant in the room which is that Russia has launched an invasion of a sovereign country, despite Putins thinly vield excuses has his eyes on a land grab and would love nothing more than to reclaim the land lost by the USSR and allowing him to succeed will only in enbolden China and others. 

As for Trump, I agree with many of his policies, I agree Europe including the UK has utterly neglected it's duty to fund their own militarys especially in the case of some EU countries and ensure Europe's safety I totally understand why our friends in America are sick of us relying on them and their money. But Trumps behaviour the other day was totally out of order and will only fuel our collective enemy's confidence to challenge the existing world order, where the USA has the most to loose. 

Agreed.

Most countries have histories best not revisited? How far back do we go?

It also indicates how little this country and Europe have thought of our security?

Typical here, giving everything away?

Edited 6 hours ago by old man

[Stonepark]

7 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

As for the purposed theory Putin has invaded ror the altruistic purpose of saving his people being killed in the East of Ukraine, it's laughable, he's currently pumping forced conscripts and his own people by the hundreds of thousands into a meat grinder to gain land mile by mile. It's almost WW1 tactics, anyone that cared about there people would not be doing that for such a futile task. 

Russia has done this all before, under the USSR it occupied Europe as far as East Germany not long ago. Putin is a lier, if he had the military might to do it, he'd find reasons to push all the way back to Germany again and who knows where or if he'd stop. 

I think some inderviduals on here need to wake up. 

You might want to check that viterol, Russia has been getting 1500 to 2500 volunteers a month into their armed forces, they then spend 6 months training them before they go to the front lines..... you are lucky if Zelensky gives those snatched off streets and pressed into service 6 days training, recent Ukranian recruits have been complaining that their training on weapons and tactics consists of watching Youtube videos and often the first time they see a gun is when they are bussed to the front lines...... your statement is not accurate and has no factual basis.

German nazi's have done all this before, now Ukrainian Neo nazi's are doing it again, seeking to remove those who they find undesireable from their population, though it is ethnic Russians this time instead of Jews

Indeed you do need to wake up.

[NoBodyImportant]

11 hours ago, TOPGUN749 said:

Let’s face it,the American people voted for him,but out of many millions they only had 2  candidates to choose from. They chose a man who is a poor leader,convicted criminal ,with an over inflated ego,a billionaire businessman with no respect for anyone except himself.Definitely not president material! Reminds me of some business owners and the way they talk to employees. Can only hope his reign is a short one…

Trump is loved over here, I feel like you media has lied to you.  Bush was not loved but voted for, Obama was not loved but voted for, but Trump is loved. 

8 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

Well I don't claim to know with any certainty, I'm really not sure Zelensky would rip off billions of his own countrys defence spending, for all his faults he is a man who refused to leave and run for safety when his country was invaded, he clearly cares about keeping Ukraine out of Russian hands. 

 

Zelenskyy biggest problem is his controls a former combloc countries where corruption was normal part of business.  evEryone skims off the top.  

[NoBodyImportant]

6 hours ago, Rem260 said:

That didn't work out to well for the first nation peoples or the Confederate states did it. The USA only follows these principles when it suits its own agenda.

You are talking to someone who lives in the south and spent many summers on a reservation with his grandma.  The difference is that once the wars were won the killing stopped.  

[NoBodyImportant]

2 hours ago, 12gauge82 said:

I think focusing on a dislike for Zelensky and the wrongs or rights of what he has done, or how corrupt Ukraine is or isn't misses the huge elephant in the room which is that Russia has launched an invasion of a sovereign country, despite Putins thinly vield excuses has his eyes on a land grab and would love nothing more than to reclaim the land lost by the USSR and allowing him to succeed will only in enbolden China and others. 

As for Trump, I agree with many of his policies, I agree Europe including the UK has utterly neglected it's duty to fund their own militarys especially in the case of some EU countries and ensure Europe's safety I totally understand why our friends in America are sick of us relying on them and their money. But Trumps behaviour the other day was totally out of order and will only fuel our collective enemy's confidence to challenge the existing world order, where the USA has the most to loose. 

You have to understand the mineral deal was already worked out.  Zelenskyy was there to sign it.  Zelenskyy met with a bunch of congress that openly is against Trump and decided not to sign.  We have members of our own congress that doesn’t want peace because it will be seen as a win for Trump.   

[NoBodyImportant]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Lets look at this 'elephant' 
Between 2014, and the attacks against the separatists in Donbas, and the Russian invasion in 2022, there was multiple opportunities for Russia to 'land grab' Ukraine.
Directly after the 2014 coup would have been ideal.
The armed forces of Ukraine were in disarray, and the west had not yet armed them, and it wouldnt have been hard to 'land grab' the entire country, yet they didnt ?

As far as China goes, this conflict has only pushed Russia towards China, exposed western weaknesses in military and diplomatic strength.

The difference is, we KNOW Russias bad at democracy and corruption, but somehow we believe Ukraine to be perfectly suitable not only for EU membership, but also NATO ?

This,  I am amazed at how well media works.  People have seem to forgot everything that took place between the 2014 coup and the invasion by Russia.  

[NoBodyImportant]

I have a question I would like to ask you all.  
Pretend it’s 2014-2018

The facts: Ukraine has a population that is 29% only Russian speaking. Mostly in Donetsk and Luhansk

Sense the current regime took power they

Banned opposition political parties that 95% of the Russian speaking population voted for.

Banned Russia language on the radio and TV. 

Outlawed new papers translating in Russian

Banned Russian language in churches

banned Russian language in education and all government institutions 

Banned households from having more than 10 Russian language books.  
 

the Ukrainian constitution says they must provide services, education and respect any minorities over 10%. The Ukrainian constitution also says any province can gain independence with a 3/4 vote.  Donetsk and Luhansk voted 95-97% in favor of independence.  
 

This question has nothing to do with the Russian invasion, I legitimately want to know your opinion on this one subject.  so my question is this:

 Was the Ukrainian government in the right for liquidating these people?  
 

 

 

[ordnance]

On 01/03/2025 at 11:29, Stonepark said:

The problem is that those against a deal and continuing the war, are this time are literally supporting the Nazi's who were put into power after the Ukranian coup in 2014.

Sounds like something Putin and his cronies would say 👍

[clangerman]

42 minutes ago, NoBodyImportant said:

This,  I am amazed at how well media works.  People have seem to forgot everything that took place between the 2014 coup and the invasion by Russia.  

some have lived on propaganda for so long I doubt they can survive without it your trough of truth is going to end up surrounded with horses who died of thirst! 

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, ordnance said:

Sounds like something Putin and his cronies would say 👍

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

[NoBodyImportant]

You go back a few years before Bidens family made millions from Hunter Biden’s dealings in the Ukraine the media had a far different opinion on the Ukraine.   We went from Ukrainian government was a neo nazi regime, to Ukraine has a nazi problem, to only 20% of the Ukrainians at Nazi affiliated, to there is a fascination with Nazi symbols but it doesn’t mean much, to where we are at today which is there are no Nazis in the Ukraine. 

[NoBodyImportant]

Now we are supposed to pretend that there was never any neo Nazis in the Ukraine,  the SS patch on there arm is actually a I overlapping a N

But I will say the three swords is a much cooler patch then the SS 

[armsid]

And throughout this posturing by European leaders about backing Ukraine we cannot make anything  in UK because all industry has gone to China in the quest for net zero Germany does not have steelmaking capacity because Merkal shut down the nuclear power plants and rellied on Russian gas to generate power This can be turned off at any time by Putin All Europe thinks the USwill feed more into defence because we have removed our heavy industries and given welfare handouts to all and sundry when we should have been producing goods at home which would have stopped handouts and not relied on US money to buy our defence We have left our selves an easy target for Russia He can use conscripts well trained Ukraine pressgang their recruits  A European Army will need arming and men both of which are in short supply and conscription is the only way to get a large enough force to keep peace in Europe and elsewhere if EUleaders send them elsewhere

[12gauge82]

4 hours ago, Stonepark said:

You might want to check that viterol, Russia has been getting 1500 to 2500 volunteers a month into their armed forces, they then spend 6 months training them before they go to the front lines..... you are lucky if Zelensky gives those snatched off streets and pressed into service 6 days training, recent Ukranian recruits have been complaining that their training on weapons and tactics consists of watching Youtube videos and often the first time they see a gun is when they are bussed to the front lines...... your statement is not accurate and has no factual basis.

German nazi's have done all this before, now Ukrainian Neo nazi's are doing it again, seeking to remove those who they find undesireable from their population, though it is ethnic Russians this time instead of Jews

Indeed you do need to wake up.

Again, due to your clear dislike for Ukraine your failing to recognise the difference between an aggressor who can choose their method of attack, when and where it will happen and pick on a smaller weaker opponent, in this case Ukraine 

And 

A defender who has no choice in any of the above and if they want to survive have no choice but to make do with the limited resources and manpower they have. 

[Stonepark]

4 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Again, due to your clear dislike for Ukraine your failing to recognise the difference between an aggressor who can choose their method of attack, when and where it will happen and pick on a smaller weaker opponent, in this case Ukraine 

And 

A defender who has no choice in any of the above and if they want to survive have no choice but to make do with the limited resources and manpower they have. 

Again, due to your clear dislike for the residents of the Donbass who legally seceded as allowed by the constitution from Ukraine your failing to recognise the difference between an aggressor who can choose their method of attack, when and where it will happen and pick on a smaller weaker opponent, in this case the Donbass

And 

A defender who has no choice in any of the above and if they want to survive have no choice but to make do with the limited resources and manpower they have and who ask their kin and kith neighbours for protection.

[holloway]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Lets look at this 'elephant' 
Between 2014, and the attacks against the separatists in Donbas, and the Russian invasion in 2022, there was multiple opportunities for Russia to 'land grab' Ukraine.
Directly after the 2014 coup would have been ideal.
The armed forces of Ukraine were in disarray, and the west had not yet armed them, and it wouldnt have been hard to 'land grab' the entire country, yet they didnt ?

As far as China goes, this conflict has only pushed Russia towards China, exposed western weaknesses in military and diplomatic strength.

The difference is, we KNOW Russias bad at democracy and corruption, but somehow we believe Ukraine to be perfectly suitable not only for EU membership, but also NATO ?

Have we any verified figures on funds that the states have committed to Ukraine ? or are we going on figures that Trump has confirmed ? if so ……..well we know it might be inaccurate as it has been proved he couldn't lie straight in bed ,i put Putin and Trump neck and neck for false information .

 

[steve1066]

2 minutes ago, holloway said:

Have we any verified figures on funds that the states have committed to Ukraine ? or are we going on figures that Trump has confirmed ? if so ……..well we know it might be inaccurate as it has been proved he couldn't lie straight in bed ,i put Putin and Trump neck and neck for false information .

 

Wait for it Holloway, I’m sure our American friend can find a brain washing snippet for that too.

I bet he has a snippet somewhere that proves Iraq had hidden weapons of mass destruction!
 

 

[12gauge82]

5 hours ago, Rewulf said:

Lets look at this 'elephant' 
Between 2014, and the attacks against the separatists in Donbas, and the Russian invasion in 2022, there was multiple opportunities for Russia to 'land grab' Ukraine.
Directly after the 2014 coup would have been ideal.
The armed forces of Ukraine were in disarray, and the west had not yet armed them, and it wouldnt have been hard to 'land grab' the entire country, yet they didnt ?

As far as China goes, this conflict has only pushed Russia towards China, exposed western weaknesses in military and diplomatic strength.

The difference is, we KNOW Russias bad at democracy and corruption, but somehow we believe Ukraine to be perfectly suitable not only for EU membership, but also NATO ?

Your view is too simplistic and doesn't give Putin credit for his cunning. 

After it's annexation of Crimea Russia attempted to build on its control and influence on the area before moving on, it didn't want to bite off more than it could chew so to speak. 

It supported local disenters and created instability using unmarked troops in eastern Ukraine. 

And critically Putin probably wanted to gauge international and Nato reactions which was very poor before launching a further land grab, which is why it's so important we don't allow him to succeed in his goals this time.