28gm 7.5's for woodies?

[poontang]

Is that if I am shooting a 6s either 30 for summer 32s for winter I have the gear and weaponary to take birds out at 40 yards plus on average at distance on regular basis with clean kills ,more than say a shooter with 28inch barrels and 28grams of 7.5s .

 

Although i would agree with the majority of the original post, i fail to see what barrel length has got to do with cartridge efficiency

[Dekers]

Although i would agree with the majority of the original post, i fail to see what barrel length has got to do with cartridge efficiency

 

 

Forget choke for the purpose of this.....

 

It makes a very small difference but to understand it simply take it to the extreme...you have a 30 yard barrel, put the same cart down that as a 28" barrel and shoot 100% accurately at a target 31 yards away, which do you think is likely to do more damage?

[Catamong]

Forget choke for the purpose of this.....

 

It makes a very small difference but to understand it simply take it to the extreme...you have a 30 yard barrel, put the same cart down that as a 28" barrel and shoot 100% accurately at a target 31 yards away, which do you think is likely to do more damage?

 

My goodness, I've never thought of that..........I'm off down to the gunsmith tomorrow to trade my 31" barrels for a 31 yard set...........Digweed beware..!!

 

Cat.

[sitsinhedges]

My goodness, I've never thought of that..........I'm off down to the gunsmith tomorrow to trade my 31" barrels for a 31 yard set...........Digweed beware..!!

 

Cat.

 

You could just use slug

[Catamong]

My goodness, I've never thought of that..........I'm off down to the gunsmith tomorrow to trade my 31" barrels for a 31 yard set...........Digweed beware..!!

 

Cat.

 

Doh,...........on second thoughts, perhaps not, my cabinet's only 29 yards long, how do I explain that to my FEO, also my snapcaps are only 12 feet long, I'm in a bit of a muddle now.. ?

 

Cat

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Those numbers are big, at 10,000, that equates to 27 birds EVERY day of the year, that takes some doing!!

 

 

This year has been my worst by some margin I am only in the 3500 mark with only 5 months to go I cant quite see me doing the 8 .

My records I had a peak in 1997 when one 10 acre pea field from drilling to be plough in accounted for 4500 .

There was a time that I shot the filed three times in a week and had over 1000 birds in those three days .

 

Its a shame as it was before my intrest in sharing my experience and shooting when I was a greedy youngster and wanted to keep it all for myself .

 

The birds on my land have not reached those dizzy levels for the last 4/5 years with 100 bird bags decreaseing year on year.

 

Kind regards OTH

Edited July 26, 2010 by Over the hill

[poontang]

Forget choke for the purpose of this.....

 

It makes a very small difference but to understand it simply take it to the extreme...you have a 30 yard barrel, put the same cart down that as a 28" barrel and shoot 100% accurately at a target 31 yards away, which do you think is likely to do more damage?

 

Forgetting the fact that there's no such thing as a 30 yard barrel, you're saying that a 30" barrelled gun will do more 'damage' at a given range than a 28" barrelled gun?

 

You jest, surely?

[the_commoner]

Forgetting the fact that there's no such thing as a 30 yard barrel, you're saying that a 30" barrelled gun will do more 'damage' at a given range than a 28" barrelled gun?

 

You jest, surely?

 

i do believe he does !

[b682]

For me it is not about kill ratio's or distance the bird is (within reason) - it is about keeping the licence open that allows us all to shot pigeon, remember the licence is clear it is for crop protection not sport and if the governing body BASC recommend #6 or larger shot then this what we should be found to be using.

 

Think what would happen if the do goods found we were not following BASC advice. Would we lose the open licence and then have to apply and pay for a private licence to protect crops.

 

Personally what we need is for one of the cartridge manufactures to make a 28gm #6 load for the same price as a #7.5 clay load.

 

Now this is not a problem as lead is lead and costs the same for #7.5 or #6 No the price is a commercial one for profit as they no they can get more for a #6 cartridge and even more if they call it a game load.

 

With increasing costs of cartridges the pocket hurts and speaks out so it is normal to try and save money and buy clay loads for live pest shooting but is it the correct way forward.

[Dekers]

Forget choke for the purpose of this.....

 

It makes a very small difference but to understand it simply take it to the extreme...you have a 30 yard barrel, put the same cart down that as a 28" barrel and shoot 100% accurately at a target 31 yards away, which do you think is likely to do more damage?

 

 

Forgetting the fact that there's no such thing as a 30 yard barrel, you're saying that a 30" barrelled gun will do more 'damage' at a given range than a 28" barrelled gun?

 

You jest, surely?

 

 

Come on chap, it was a hypothetical example to demonstrate the principle, and the answer to your question is yes, the closer the end of the barrel is to the target the less time the shot has to spread......please read it all again and take particular note of the part in bigger letters!!

[MC]

Come on chap, it was a hypothetical example to demonstrate the principle, and the answer to your question is yes, the closer the end of the barrel is to the target the less time the shot has to spread......please read it all again and take particular note of the part in bigger letters!!

 

 

As it was all hypothetical here's one for you,

 

If you had a 30 yard barrel would the shot get to the end of it? would the volume of the barrel be sufficient enough to allow the gas to expand so they could no longer push the shot out?

 

Would the friction on the wad be so high that it wouldn't travel that far. Also the shotload would have to move 30yards of air in front of it which would get harder as the shot went faster.

 

 

I would bet that there is not a measurable difference between cartridges fired through 26 to 32" barrels.

[Guest cookoff013]

Now this is not a problem as lead is lead and costs the same for #7.5 or #6 No the price is a commercial one for profit as they no they can get more for a #6 cartridge and even more if they call it a game load.

 

lead isnt just lead, there are different antimony contents for different applications. the very fast clay loads have upto 6% antimony to harden the shot to stop it deforming. soft shot cant take the thumping that the faster clay loads do.

game loads are lower antomony lead and are usually shot slower. this keeps shot deformations down, but as the lead is purer /softer, it does hit game better.

so lead isnt just lead. more clay loads are made than pigeon cartridges, so demand is lower. which brings up the price.

 

check out hull cartridge for the facts, they have a wonderfull website.

[Paul223]

Try shooting pigeons 45-55 yards out with 28g and you'll not have many

I think thats a good point, i wouldn't not even with #6 or 5

For me it is not about kill ratio's or distance the bird is (within reason) - it is about keeping the licence open that allows us all to shot pigeon, remember the licence is clear it is for crop protection not sport and if the governing body BASC recommend #6 or larger shot then this what we should be found to be using.

 

Think what would happen if the do goods found we were not following BASC advice. Would we lose the open licence and then have to apply and pay for a private licence to protect crops.

It's called a general licence, basc don't issue it

 

Personally what we need is for one of the cartridge manufactures to make a 28gm #6 load for the same price as a #7.5 clay load.

whats that saying, 'pattern before penetration', the pattern will be loose, full of pigeon size holes before the pellets fail to penetrate, so how is using a less number of pellets going to help?

 

Now this is not a problem as lead is lead and costs the same for #7.5 or #6 No the price is a commercial one for profit as they no they can get more for a #6 cartridge and even more if they call it a game load.

Supply and demand means that clays sized loads will always be cheaper to make, it's not about the size of the lead but about pulling a machine out of very popular production to run what might be a smaller line of goods

 

With increasing costs of cartridges the pocket hurts and speaks out so it is normal to try and save money and buy clay loads for live pest shooting but is it the correct way forward.

Have a look at shot sizes, some on this thread are saying 6.5's all the way for pigeon, i have some 7.5 clay loads which also have the pellet size in mm, that size of shot for another manufacturer would be 6.5 size shot, confusing ain't it

 

 

I would bet that there is not a measurable difference between cartridges fired through 26 to 32" barrels.

Agreed, when compared to shooting a bird at 31 yards with the 32inch barrel, it'd be just like shooting a pigeon 31 yards and 6 inches away using the 26 inch barrel :yp: :o

Edited July 27, 2010 by Paul223

[b682]

lead isnt just lead, there are different antimony contents for different applications. the very fast clay loads have upto 6% antimony to harden the shot to stop it deforming. soft shot cant take the thumping that the faster clay loads do.

game loads are lower antomony lead and are usually shot slower. this keeps shot deformations down, but as the lead is purer /softer, it does hit game better.

so lead isnt just lead. more clay loads are made than pigeon cartridges, so demand is lower. which brings up the price.

 

check out hull cartridge for the facts, they have a wonderfull website.

 

 

Yes ok so as antimony last time I look was around £6.00 per Kg LME and you say softer shot is best for pigeon and game then lets take the 6% or even 3% out from 1000kg and that is £180 saving per 1000kg on 3% removal of Antimony. And quantity purchased with regards to lead price makes no difference ring up Locatelli in Italy and buy a 20 ton container load and you will see that the price is before it is made in to shot what ever the size.

 

Yes the cartridge manufacture loads less #6 but that is becuae the cartirdges are more expensive (bigger profit) all they need do is change the shot size, the cases, powder, wads can be the same (ask any reloader) so how much extra profit do they need to swap shot size

[Paul223]

thought i'd mentioned it before somewhere

 

I've found in the past that no 7 shot works well on pigeon, the problem is the discrepancy between manufactures, below are a few examples, so sometimes EU 7.5 can be English size 7

 

http://www.hallowellco.com/shot_size_chart.htm

http://www.metal2models.btinternet.co.uk/shotsize.htm

http://www.jonathan-spencer.co.uk/Referenc.../Shotsize1a.htm

[b682]

Another interesting question ?

 

transport cost with regards to cartridge prices being made or imported in the UK.

 

We make the cartridges in the UK so all the components need to be imported all with different transport costs, but not cheap (more so for explosives).

 

so we have:- primed cases, powder (expensive to import), wads and shot. This gives 4 lots of import transport costs. The components are made by differnent firms eg. chedit, Nobel Sports, Diana, etc.

 

Then the cartridge is assembled in the UK.

 

We import finished cartridges, a lower explosive risk at 1.4S and ONLY one transport charge.

 

Yet they all end up costing very much the same ---------- WHY ? HOW ?

[wymberley]

b682, hi.

Just one point which someone has recently explained and which you must have missed. A clay pigeon when hit is a "kill". However, we're talking live quarry,. so in this instance a "kill" means a dead bird.

Cheers

[Dekers]

As it was all hypothetical here's one for you,

 

If you had a 30 yard barrel would the shot get to the end of it? would the volume of the barrel be sufficient enough to allow the gas to expand so they could no longer push the shot out?

 

Would the friction on the wad be so high that it wouldn't travel that far. Also the shotload would have to move 30yards of air in front of it which would get harder as the shot went faster.

 

 

I would bet that there is not a measurable difference between cartridges fired through 26 to 32" barrels.

 

Guys, I was attempting to explain the way it works in VERY simple terms, apparently not simple enough for some...

 

I don't know the answer to all that, but I do know in this day and age it is possible to measure the difference of spread in a 28 or 32 or whatever you like barrel...and like I said....

 

It makes a very small difference

Edited July 27, 2010 by Dekers

[henry d]

Back on topic.........

 

...........28gm 7.5 for woodpigeon............NO !

 

....but that is just my preference, I eat a lot of them and don`t like to spit out lots of shot and even with the pictures of shot birds I feel that is too much shot in it for eating.

With 6`s I get just one or two in a bird apart from really close shots and another thing is I know that I can shoot longer range birds with far less chance of injuring/pricking them

[Guest cookoff013]

demand and economy are 2 different topics that drive both purchasing markets.

 

clay lead is turned over in huge quantities. game lead in smaller quantities.

thats the demand issue, supply-demand.

 

pigeon shooters want an cheap cartridge, most are loaded at lower speeds, less powder, cheaper wads, thinner cases, cheaper primers, improper formed lead, this produces a cartridge for cheap decoy shooting. the extra cost is taken up with the larger charge of lead. the low demand and high econamising is why the price is high.

 

specific game cartridges are higher quality, and the price really shows that. so they are even more higher.

 

supply and demand.

[Maidment78]

cookoff013,,

 

You mention the difference in price for the two types of cartridge and I being in purchasing for many years I totally understand but the one thing I am not familiar with is the performace difference, what is the practical difference with using a cheap cart with a top end one? can you really tell the difference?

 

I have issues shoot the proverbial barn door as just started with the shotgun and am happy if I get 40-50% conversion rates at the moment but I have not tried the expensive carts so I have nothing to campare against. I use Gamebore at the moment and anything else I can get hold of to be honest.

 

Just interested if people have had different experiances with this.

[MC]

Guys, I was attempting to explain the way it works in VERY simple terms, apparently not simple enough for some...

 

I don't know the answer to all that, but I do know in this day and age it is possible to measure the difference of spread in a 28 or 32 or whatever you like barrel...and like I said....

 

It makes a very small difference

 

 

The length of barrel makes absolutely no difference to the spread. How can it? It has no bearing on the spread at all. The choke is what governs that to a degree.

 

Just because you pattern one cartridge from a box and get a good one does it go hand in hand that the next cartridge will be the same?

 

There is just too many variables.

[al4x]

about the only thing I can add to this is over the years I've seen a fair few very good pheasant shots using realtively light loads of 7's or 7.5's, to very good effect as well even on reasonably high birds. Obviously people will think its awful but if you put the shot in the right place it works, now everybody seems to have moved up shot size and amount of lead in the cartridge and its become the norm, not really sure whether this is to shoot birds further out or to account for a lesser shooting ability. As you shoot more you tend to change chokes less and worry less about barrel length etc generally if the shot is in the right place it kills.

[Guest cookoff013]

cookoff013,,

 

You mention the difference in price for the two types of cartridge and I being in purchasing for many years I totally understand but the one thing I am not familiar with is the performace difference, what is the practical difference with using a cheap cart with a top end one? can you really tell the difference?

 

I have issues shoot the proverbial barn door as just started with the shotgun and am happy if I get 40-50% conversion rates at the moment but I have not tried the expensive carts so I have nothing to campare against. I use Gamebore at the moment and anything else I can get hold of to be honest.

 

Just interested if people have had different experiances with this.

 

cheaper powder is used, and as little as possable is used. cheap shells have some quick burning powder. expensive ones, often have a better powder for the application, like lots of slow powder, for higher velosity. (if both powders are the same price, the one with more powder cost more).

 

try using d&j cartridges in a clean barrel gun, nasty recoil, dirty barrels, smoke everywhere, confetti all over the place.

then use hull high pheseant, clean burn, still got stout recoil, burns clean, no smoke.

there is a difference.

 

http://www.gamebore.com/page.php?id1=2&id2=3

 

back gold range will be different to the clear pigeon. will be faster.

pigeon extreme, is a clay cartridge, with a pigeon sticker on it and harder shot so sugest its faster (the advertisement said so).

clear pigeon would be the cheapest live quarry cartridge.

Edited July 28, 2010 by cookoff013

[joknob]

about the only thing I can add to this is over the years I've seen a fair few very good pheasant shots using realtively light loads of 7's or 7.5's, to very good effect as well even on reasonably high birds. Obviously people will think its awful but if you put the shot in the right place it works, now everybody seems to have moved up shot size and amount of lead in the cartridge and its become the norm, not really sure whether this is to shoot birds further out or to account for a lesser shooting ability. As you shoot more you tend to change chokes less and worry less about barrel length etc generally if the shot is in the right place it kills.

yes,a good shot will kill with any choke,or cartridge combination.too many shooters think they,ve hit a pigeon hard when a cloud or feathers come out,but only tickled it with a couple of pellets.they do this quiet a few times and jump to the conclusion that they need bigger shot to bring them down,rather than swing through athem a bit more