welsh warrior Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 as ive recently bought a 20 bore s/s ive been useing it for game shooting pigeons crows rabbits etc and found its just as effective as a 12 bore. i use 25grms or 28 grms and i cant see any difference between them other than the 20 bore has a much tighter pattern and i find that a massive advantage for high birds or distance targets.so my question is why aint 20 bore the most common of the bores today ? i mean (as a eg )years ago 10 bore was all the rage then it fell away becuase shooters could shoot a 12 bore and its more practical.i understand you cant have BB mags or big 64 grms carts for 20 bore but how many shooter can say they use that sort of cart every time they shoot ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeker Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Don't tell everyone .. they'll all want 20s and the cartridge price might come down ... ? A 1/2 choke pattern of 24 /28 g shot at X fps is just that .. though the smaller gauges may use less powder to achieve it. Why 12 not 20 ?? probably for the same reason the 16 & 24 's faded .. standardisation, mass production, cost and commercialisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterjester Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Shoot a 20bore myself. You can always tell those people who have never shot with a 20bore, they still describe it as a gun for women and children! Little bit ignorant in my opinion. Great for game. Also use it when I have a pop at the clays.....Super gun! And before someone says it......recoil is not an issue either. Buy one today! Lincoln o/u 20bore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 14, 2010 Report Share Posted December 14, 2010 Hi, The smart money would be on the 12b 2" but unfortunately there aren't enough shooters about who appreciate the choice so it's the usual story of supply and demand. Due to cost, it's now only re-loaders in the main know the advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivegtiguy Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 I HAVE TO AGREE. I RECENTLY TREATED MYSELF TO A 20 BORE BETTINSOLI TALENTO 30 INCH. I ALWAYS SHOOT A BEERETTA 682 GOLD E BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE BETTINSOLI IS JUST AS WELL PUT TOGETHER AS ANY BERETTA. FIRST USED IT IN SCOTLAND ON DUCK AND PHEASANT WITH REALLY SURPRISING RESULTS. ONE OF THE OTHER SHOOTERS WITH US MADE FUN OF MY 'GIRLS GUN' BUT HE SOON SHUT HIS MOUTH WHEN HE SAW THE RESULTS. FIRST DAY ON PIGEONS LAST WEEK AND SHE TOOK DOWN BIRDS AT RANGES A 12BORE WOULD TAKE, WITH LESS WOUNDED BIRDS. I FIND THEY ACTUALLY KILL CLEANER THAN A 12BORE DUE TO THE TIGHTER PATTERN. I CAN'T SEE A SITUATION WERE I WOULD BRING THE 12BORE OUT AGAIN OTHER THAN FOR CLAYS. I'M A REAL CONVERT NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 as ive recently bought a 20 bore s/s ive been useing it for game shooting pigeons crows rabbits etc and found its just as effective as a 12 bore. i use 25grms or 28 grms and i cant see any difference between them other than the 20 bore has a much tighter pattern and i find that a massive advantage for high birds or distance targets.so my question is why aint 20 bore the most common of the bores today ? i mean (as a eg )years ago 10 bore was all the rage then it fell away becuase shooters could shoot a 12 bore and its more practical.i understand you cant have BB mags or big 64 grms carts for 20 bore but how many shooter can say they use that sort of cart every time they shoot ? Probably best to ask all the Olympic and World and National and County, etc Champions why they don't use 20g, but all settle for 12g...and whilst you're at it, ask why they have to have a separate 20g World Championship, that they don't let the 12g into? ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Where does the idea that a smaller gauge throws a tighter pattern come from? The principle of choking and pattern is the pellet count in a 30" circle. A correctly regulated 12g with, say, 1/2 choke puts a specific pellet count for the pellet size and load wt into a 30" circle at a specific distance. By definition, the 20b or 28b regulated to the same choke produces exactly the same pellet count for the comparable load at the same distance. If shooters are finding that their 20b is throwing a tighter pattern than a 12g with the same load - either the choke designations on the tubes are wrong, or its the cartridge ( as pellet hardness, wad type etc do change pattern characteristics) that is actually causing the change. Its more likely that a shooter gaining an improved kill ratio with a smaller gauge gun is doing so as a result of better suited gun handling for them personally, and having more confidence. Bottom line always is, if you put the shot load where it counts because your aim and technique is good, the gauge / load / choke is irrelevant. Most gun manufacturers make their chokes in a linear progression of reduction, 10thou per choke, and then mark them off was 5 notches cy down to one notch full - but when you regulate these through the gun with your choice of cartridge the pattern plate results can be dramatically different. To understand any particular guns shooting characteristics with the tubes provided, the ONLY way to determine true choking is to ignore whats written on the tubes and go to a pattern plate and do the pellet counts. Its a massively informative exersize, and well worth an hours work onto sheets of wall paper at your local ground. Take them home after a few shots with each choke and add up the pellets inside a 30" circle to understand what each marked tube actually does in your gun with your preferred cartridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 Where does the idea that a smaller gauge throws a tighter pattern come from? The principle of choking and pattern is the pellet count in a 30" circle. A correctly regulated 12g with, say, 1/2 choke puts a specific pellet count for the pellet size and load wt into a 30" circle at a specific distance. By definition, the 20b or 28b regulated to the same choke produces exactly the same pellet count for the comparable load at the same distance. If shooters are finding that their 20b is throwing a tighter pattern than a 12g with the same load - either the choke designations on the tubes are wrong, or its the cartridge ( as pellet hardness, wad type etc do change pattern characteristics) that is actually causing the change. Its more likely that a shooter gaining an improved kill ratio with a smaller gauge gun is doing so as a result of better suited gun handling for them personally, and having more confidence. Bottom line always is, if you put the shot load where it counts because your aim and technique is good, the gauge / load / choke is irrelevant. Most gun manufacturers make their chokes in a linear progression of reduction, 10thou per choke, and then mark them off was 5 notches cy down to one notch full - but when you regulate these through the gun with your choice of cartridge the pattern plate results can be dramatically different. To understand any particular guns shooting characteristics with the tubes provided, the ONLY way to determine true choking is to ignore whats written on the tubes and go to a pattern plate and do the pellet counts. Its a massively informative exersize, and well worth an hours work onto sheets of wall paper at your local ground. Take them home after a few shots with each choke and add up the pellets inside a 30" circle to understand what each marked tube actually does in your gun with your preferred cartridge. As you say, totally agree The only real advantage is if you need a lighter to carry gun and can make do with lighter loads. A light gun with a big load can hurt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 i brought my son a 20 when i go out on my own i allways take his gun and leave my 12 at home colim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I picked up the wrong slip the other day and took my wifes 20 scored well at clays and the took it for a rough day on Wednesday it went well so used it today for a driven shoot and it preforms well. I will stick with my 12s for driven days but will use the 20 on walked up days and when I have a sore shoulder from rugby. Our keeper uses a 20 with long barrels 30+ and semi magnum loads he loves it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 If you want to shoot a 20g, shoot a ******* 20g I'll stick to a 12 (if that's all right with you) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I have gone the other way used to have both 20 and 12 bores, I sold my 20 bore for various reasons and replaced it with a light 12 bore. Now I don't have to bother having 2 different sizes of cartridges, I can just keep a variaty of 12 bore cartridges to suit all my needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 (edited) 12 bore (had quiet a few & got one) 1 oz 6 shot on game 20 bore (had 2, 1x browning 425 & lanber) 1 oz 6 shot on game 28 bore (got 1, browning cynergy) 1 oz of 6 shot on game I challenge anyone to prove that any of the smaller gauges are less effective like for like. Its all about fit and putting the shot in the right place. Ps - my 12 with 32 gms kicks harder (a lot) than my 28 with 28 gms. Edited January 8, 2011 by markm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 If you are doing a lot of walking every ounce less makes a difference and a 20g is just a little bit more elegant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerettaSV10 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 For me it was personal preferance, not that the smaller bores were less effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 12 bore (had quiet a few & got one) 1 oz 6 shot on game 20 bore (had 2, 1x browning 425 & lanber) 1 oz 6 shot on game 28 bore (got 1, browning cynergy) 1 oz of 6 shot on game I challenge anyone to prove that any of the smaller gauges are less effective like for like. Its all about fit and putting the shot in the right place. If your firing the same load of course they are as effective, Recoil may be the same if the mass of the gun is the same say a 26" ultralight 12g and a 32" heavy 28g. Surely its the right gun and load combo for the purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 If your firing the same load of course they are as effective, Recoil may be the same if the mass of the gun is the same say a 26" ultralight 12g and a 32" heavy 28g. Surely its the right gun and load combo for the purpose? Yes to an extent. My MK 70 has a plastic butt plate, my cynergy is the field model but has the rubber bit on the end (I am sure there is a name for it) and it DOES work big time, there is a big difference in gun weight between the 2 guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Duncan Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 as ive recently bought a 20 bore s/s ive been useing it for game shooting pigeons crows rabbits etc and found its just as effective as a 12 bore. i use 25grms or 28 grms and i cant see any difference between them other than the 20 bore has a much tighter pattern and i find that a massive advantage for high birds or distance targets.so my question is why aint 20 bore the most common of the bores today ? i mean (as a eg )years ago 10 bore was all the rage then it fell away becuase shooters could shoot a 12 bore and its more practical.i understand you cant have BB mags or big 64 grms carts for 20 bore but how many shooter can say they use that sort of cart every time they shoot ? Just accept that you're more confident with a gauge you can manage. If the girly gauge suits you, just accept you're a big girl and be happy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 I use 12g because my group all shoot 12g. Occasionally someone will run out of carts, it's easier if you all use the same gauge. Also, if I was a better shot, I would shoot .410 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomaddy525 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Ive killed 55 yrd pink foot geese on the mudflats in sunny scotland with 32g 4 shot from my browning 20 when my dad hit one with 63g BB shot which just flew on. 20 bores are every bit as good if not better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoTshoT-16 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 12g cheaper to feed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldivalloch Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Fascinating thread, this. It illustrates an unhappy truth about the shooting community, which is that whilst most shooters are enthusiasts who devote time to learning about and understanding their sport, a significant proportion are clueless and don't mind proving it by posting their, umm, misapprehensions. When I was a youngster, back in the sixties and early seventies, the Shooting Times was at its zenith, boasting a stellar range of contributors. In my humble opinion the most distinguished was the gun editor, Gough Thomas, actually Gough Thomas Garwood, a retired civil engineer. He also wrote several books on the sporting shotgun, and I recommend "Shotguns and Cartridges" as an essential read, particularly to those who lack knowledge about velocity, shot sizes, chokes and patterns, and about the relationship between bore, weight of charge and weight of gun. You never know, we might then get fewer daft posts from people who try to compare apples with oranges......and then declare that the banana is best of all. And, tomaddy525, I suspect you're still a comparative youngster. The boastfulness of youth gives you away. I see you claim to have been shooting pinkfeet at 55 yards with 32 grams of no.4 shot while out with your dad. I have my reservations about your capacity to judge range; it's notoriously difficult to do so on the foreshore. That notwithstanding, my son sometimes shoots alongside me, and if I saw him deliberately taking what he considered to be 55-yard shots at geese with the charge you claim to use, he'd be back at the car right away with a flea in his ear, and possibly a boot up his backside. I've no doubt that a lot of geese have been killed by over-ambitious shots with unsuitable equipment - but far more have been wounded and died a miserable lingering death. Respect your quarry, and operate within your limitations AND THOSE OF YOUR GUN AND CARTRIDGES. Now go figure! Best regards to all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Ive killed 55 yrd pink foot geese on the mudflats in sunny scotland with 32g 4 shot from my browning 20 when my dad hit one with 63g BB shot which just flew on. 20 bores are every bit as good if not better Oh dear.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clayman Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Ballistically, like load for like load, all gauges perform the same, as the performance is in the cartridge, not the gun. So, if a lighter gauge has better personal balance for a shooter, and they have more confidence with it, they will shoot better. Conversely, others will find the lighter guns too lively, and will prefer the steady platform a heavier gun gives. You cannot make generalisations about whether a 20g is better than a 12g, as that's personal to each shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retromlc Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 well if you can't decide get a 16 bore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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