Do you know someone who has a gun licence who shouldn't?

[Catweazle]

Perhaps we should be asking ourselves;

 

"what would have happened if all guns had been outlawed last year ?"

 

My guess is that we'd be reading about a man in Durham who had stabbed three members of his family to death and then hanged himself.

[HDAV]

Online now http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018mn79

[Ricko]

Peter Sutcliffe - Brown Rover 3500, not mentioned if it was a P6 or SD1, for those who know their cars

[onefulham]

Re, banning guns means murders just carried out in different way.

I know that, you know that, just don't think the general public get it.

No matter how we see it, another tragedy has happened, and by someone with a legal right to his guns, we cannot keep going on about illegal guns when the last few multi shootings have been by legally allowed shooters, I think we have to think of a different defence, I know if only it was easy as that with a public that only reacts to the last problem, wants to see something is done so as they can get back to their soaps and daytime tv drivel.

Edited January 3, 2012 by onefulham

[pimpkiller]

guns dont kill paople, people kill people. Thats the bottom line and something needs to be actually done about some of the stupid people knocking about these days.

[cant hit rabbits 123]

Online now http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b018mn79

 

Listening to him introduce the gun discussion, its clear to all that he's just inticing a witch hunt by the public! He's basicly asking anyone with a grudge against neighbours/family/co-workers to call in and 'report' them! Its unbelievable.

[Ricko]

Listening to him introduce the gun discussion, its clear to all that he's just inticing a witch hunt by the public! He's basicly asking anyone with a grudge against neighbours/family/co-workers to call in and 'report' them! Its unbelievable.

 

That will open the flood gates, anybody who has had the slightest grudge will be reported;

"Ooh I knew he was trouble when he parked his car in front of my house"

"Ooh I knew he wasn't fit to have a gun because he had an affair with my best friend (who actually was better looking)"

"Ooh I knew he was a bit odd because he eats squirrels"

[kdubya]

Not exactly. What he did (allegedly) is put those who were going to hand in their firearms for destruction in touch with someone who would pay good money for the gun. He made nothing, both parties benefited, but it is against policy.

 

nonsense, they sold guns on unknowingly to the origional owners (fact, its in the court transcript) they also offered to repay money gained from their endevours.

 

KW

[TaxiDriver]

From A Taxi Owner/Drivers perspective :

It is NOT harder to get a local authority taxi drivers licence !!

 

Sure you have to apply and pay the fees

You have to pass a medical (usually done privately by your own GP)

You have to pass an 'Enhanced CRB check'

Pass the local authority 'Knowledge Test' varies from one local authority to another

 

Unlike an FAC application :

You do not have to have any referees

[Ricko]

The original reason for introducing the old shotgun certificate was that after the First World War the government was concerned that there would be a revolution like the one that had occured in Russia and civilians would arm themselves with shotguns. Fast forward 70 years or so and the Rev Ian Paisley led his supporters to a hillside in N Ireland were upon his instruction they started waving their SGC in the air to indicate they were armed.

[Nikk]

Having worked in mental health care for most of my working life, one of the biggest problems I have encountered is duplicated exactly in the shooting world. When someone has been detained under a Section of the mental Health Act and that Section comes up for renewal, in order for it to be renewed, the staff must provide EVIDENCE that the person still poses a risk to themselves or society at large, or would pose a risk if allowed back into main-stream society without the restrictions of the Section. The Problem with evidence is that, by nature, it must be 'evident', i.e. obvious to anyone, that something is true. Now - apply this to gun licencing. GPs, Psychiatrists and other mental health professionals.often with many years experience, develop a sort of 'sixth sense' that someone is possibly suicidal or dangerous, but without that tricky 'evidence' are stuck. Unless the person has actually made a violent or suicidal attempt, there is no other evidence than the professional 'gut feeling', and that won't hold weight in a court - ask any policeman!

 

If the GP then is asked, "Do you think this person is safe to be granted FAC/SGC?" and they say no, and the applicant appeals, they will be expected to supply 'evidence' for their statement, rightly so, which is why they stuck to their point in the recent enquiry - any diagnosis is only applicable at that point in time and can give only a shaky indication at best as to how an individual will act in the future. This is why the medical profession made a stand against giving direct opinions. Obviously, if an individual has made attempts at self-harm or violence towards others, that IS evidence, but for how long? I know of at least one shooter who has a conviction for assaulting a police officer, but as it was about 30 years ago and he has been a model citizen since, should he be banned?

 

We now come to the most confusing fact. As even specialist medical professionals will not try and become human crystal balls, the onus falls onto the FEO, often an ex or serving Police officer, to try and assess a person's potential mental health for the next 5 years without more than maybe a couple of days experience with the local mental health team in their training! Of course people will slip through the net, no system is ever perfect, but we have degraded into a culture of blame and hysteria, where we must always find a 'whipping boy' to take the rap, rather than accept that in even the best systems, tragedies will occur (But of course, none of that sells papers does it?)Until we can educate the public, without the "all gun owners are animal murdering freaks" bias from the press, nothing will change. All shooters can do is take every opportunity to respond in an accurate calm way, showing that the control we have over our emotions and behaviour is WHY we are considered suitable to be granted licences in the first place.

 

A great post.

[klatuveradanikto]

Peter Sutcliffe - Brown Rover 3500, not mentioned if it was a P6 or SD1, for those who know their cars

Well i drive a "71" Rover P6 3500 So don't go lumping me with that nutter!!! :blink:

[silpig5]

guns dont kill paople, people kill people. Thats the bottom line and something needs to be actually done about some of the stupid people knocking about these days.

100% spot on , how many times are the headlines "stabbed to death" knife crime , " stabbed with broken bottle" hit with blunt object " enraged and beaten to death "

funny how as it was witha firearm it gets more attention . the uk media is so biast its unreal , there is nothing wrong with the law just shoddy forces not doing their job .

[Dustem Dave]

They just had a EX copper on there saying it harder to get a taxi drivers license than a FAC?

 

That cant be true can it?

 

All the very best fellas .

 

Andy .

I know some dodgy taxi drivers,one stabbed someone and went to prison,can't imagine he'd get a sgc though

[unapalomablanca]

I wonder if any of these recent gun maniacs have ever contributed to this site?. No relevance of course but eerie if they had!

[HDAV]

The original reason for introducing the old shotgun certificate was that after the First World War the government was concerned that there would be a revolution like the one that had occured in Russia and civilians would arm themselves with shotguns. Fast forward 70 years or so and the Rev Ian Paisley led his supporters to a hillside in N Ireland were upon his instruction they started waving their SGC in the air to indicate they were armed.

 

Really? I dont think so as SGC came in 1968, the 1920 firearms act banned military weapons and required certificates http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1920/43/pdfs/ukpga_19200043_en.pdf also Banned the sale of firearms to "drunk or insane persons", those under 14, etc etc

 

(6) A firearm certificate may be revoked by the chief officer

of police of the district in which the holder resides if he is satisfied

that the holder thereof is a person who is prohibited by this Act

from possessing, using, or carrying a firearm, or is a person of

intemperate habits or unsound mind, or is otherwise unfitted to

be entrusted with firearms, subject, however, to the like right of

appeal as in the case of a refusal to grant a firearm certificate.

 

The legislation was to prevent an armed revolution the authorities fearing what was happening in Russia at the time.

 

Thats makes everything pretty bloody clear and it's from 1920 lets just go back to the 1920 act, 3 year certs have what you can justify a good reason to won. be it shotgun, rifle, pistol or anything else and goodluck justifying a fully auto centre fire if that's what you need.

 

From A Taxi Owner/Drivers perspective :

It is NOT harder to get a local authority taxi drivers licence !!

 

Sure you have to apply and pay the fees

You have to pass a medical (usually done privately by your own GP)

You have to pass an 'Enhanced CRB check'

Pass the local authority 'Knowledge Test' varies from one local authority to another

 

Unlike an FAC application :

You do not have to have any referees

 

Thanks I knew someone would know, doesn't sound as stringent as FAC or SGC to that matter... and judging by some of my experiences in cab recently speaking english isn't required either....

 

 

I wonder if any of these recent gun maniacs have ever contributed to this site?. No relevance of course but eerie if they had!

 

 

Probably and there will be people who have been in his cab, stood next to him in a shop (RFD, Tesco,Lidl) He was just a normal bloke until he flipped and became a murderer (they mostly all are) and just like you and I and none of us can guarantee it won't happen to us (flip that is) as none us know what we do in certain situations (except for those that have already)

Edited January 3, 2012 by HDAV

[Mungler]

Everyone has gone off topic.

 

The original question was "do you know someone with a ticket who you think shouldn't?" (or words to that effect).

 

I would be interested to hear the wider response of answers along the lines of "yes" or "no" [and not yet another 5 page analysis that goes nowhere about the pro's and cons of the current firearms licensing legislation etc etc etc - perhaps that should have another thread?]

Edited January 3, 2012 by Mungler

[al4x]

This case will be interesting, obviously the police had removed his guns before and as we all know you don't get them back easily. There will be a serious investigation into what went wrong with the system as it nearly worked. Be interesting to know if he had any backing from BASC or SACS etc with getting them back one things for sure its a load of publicity and a very sad event thats unnecessary. And for mungler the answer is yes I do and also have done with two people who topped themselves that the alarm bells were there for most that knew them

Edited January 3, 2012 by al4x

[spanj]

In a word "yes".

 

I don't know anyone personally, but there's a few off here who at the very minimum should do a psychometric test.

 

I reckon on the third ink blot test when Masterzone2 has yet again seen another picture of a butterfly with his favourite handgun that he had had to hand back in because of Tony B. Liar and the conspiracy with the free masons and the illuminati that followed Dunblane.... well that ought to be enough shouldn't it?

 

On the flip side, if anyone thought I was crackers or needed an interview with police approved head shrinker then rather than get all huffy puffy about it and bang on about how it interfers with my right to bear arms I reckon I would just crack on with it safe in the knowledge that I'm not hat stand.

 

What about the mods on every shooting forum having a "nut nut report to plod" button?

 

Psychometric ................ hmmmmmmmm

[unapalomablanca]

Really? I dont think so as SGC came in 1968, the 1920 firearms act banned military weapons and required certificates http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1920/43/pdfs/ukpga_19200043_en.pdf also Banned the sale of firearms to "drunk or insane persons", those under 14, etc etc

 

 

 

The legislation was to prevent an armed revolution the authorities fearing what was happening in Russia at the time.

 

Thats makes everything pretty bloody clear and it's from 1920 lets just go back to the 1920 act, 3 year certs have what you can justify a good reason to won. be it shotgun, rifle, pistol or anything else and goodluck justifying a fully auto centre fire if that's what you need.

 

 

 

Thanks I knew someone would know, doesn't sound as stringent as FAC or SGC to that matter... and judging by some of my experiences in cab recently speaking english isn't required either....

 

 

 

 

 

Probably and there will be people who have been in his cab, stood next to him in a shop (RFD, Tesco,Lidl) He was just a normal bloke until he flipped and became a murderer (they mostly all are) and just like you and I and none of us can guarantee it won't happen to us (flip that is) as none us know what we do in certain situations (except for those that have already)

You speak for yourself mate, you make it sound like no one has any control. Get real.

[unapalomablanca]

Really? I dont think so as SGC came in 1968, the 1920 firearms act banned military weapons and required certificates http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1920/43/pdfs/ukpga_19200043_en.pdf also Banned the sale of firearms to "drunk or insane persons", those under 14, etc etc

 

 

 

The legislation was to prevent an armed revolution the authorities fearing what was happening in Russia at the time.

 

Thats makes everything pretty bloody clear and it's from 1920 lets just go back to the 1920 act, 3 year certs have what you can justify a good reason to won. be it shotgun, rifle, pistol or anything else and goodluck justifying a fully auto centre fire if that's what you need.

 

 

 

Thanks I knew someone would know, doesn't sound as stringent as FAC or SGC to that matter... and judging by some of my experiences in cab recently speaking english isn't required either....

 

 

 

 

 

Probably and there will be people who have been in his cab, stood next to him in a shop (RFD, Tesco,Lidl) He was just a normal bloke until he flipped and became a murderer (they mostly all are) and just like you and I and none of us can guarantee it won't happen to us (flip that is) as none us know what we do in certain situations (except for those that have already)

You speak for yourself mate. You make it sound like no one has any control. Get real.!

[vampire]

I'm sure you can imagine just how complex the system must be when you consider the niche areas like veterinary humane killing, deer stalking on national trust land etc. none of which I have any experience with, so I can't have a full picture of how to improve licensing.

 

I do think however that evidence of "good cause" should be shown for owning a shotgun. I know of more than one person who lives in an inner-city flat with shotguns and have never used them for any purpose, sporting or otherwise. I also think that a Canadian style licensing system would help, where an individual has to attend a course and prove safe proficiency with a firearm before they're allowed to walk into a shop and take one home. Currently, any simpleton who is uncapable of even operating their TV remote can get a SGC, a gun and some carts, head home and then try to work out how to use the thing. I'm amazed more new shotgun owners don't have ND's.

 

Just an observation about the criminal records criteria - Not having one just means you haven't been caught. Some of the most prolific criminals have never been caught. I don't have any bright ideas about this one though and their proposed phsyc profile from a GP is just as useless.

 

Hypothetically; a chief FEO who conducted an interview made someone out to be an idiot for enquiring about reloading shotgun carts. They were told unequivocally that you can't reload ammunition. Don't ask me how I know this. So maybe making sure firearms officers are actually informed might be a good place to start!

 

 

It wouldn't prevent a nutter killing people. Nothing will. The sooner the media and the public realise that, the sooner we can get back to improving (not necessarily making it more difficult) firearms laws and licensing.

 

You can't buy a car and drive it on the road without testing because it increases the chance of accidental injury or death. The same could be said for firearms tests. It might not make a huge difference to the stats, it just makes sense. proactive rather than reactive. We already have too many reactive gun laws.

 

I've done a canadian PAL/RPAL license test. You demonstrate safe handling and operation of the type of firearms you plan to own and that's it. Not too guelling. It's not meant to be a pain for sensible people, it's meant to stop "special" folks from owning weapons.

 

 

Unfortunately all the rules and checks in the world won't prevent every incident like this. Allegedly this guy showed signs of self harm 3 years ago. His licences should have been removed instantly until he could prove he was fit to be trusted again. Doesn't make sense to punish the majority because of the minority.

The above posts make sense

There is no way any law or checks will ever stop the human species killing each other or convince an increasingly sterile world that those of us who hold sgc/fac are not dangerous,had we started issuing licences when the first caveman made a spear we would still be debating it today and it would make no difference as we would still be killing each other.

I do think it strange that we have an automatic right to a sgc without any training both written and practicle,but thats nothing to do with shooting another person, other than fuel for the anti brigade and whilst WE are faulting the current licencing process and its regional interpretations etc, it is no surprise that the anti masses have fuel for cause.

Make it easier to gain a licence,offer free training and have annual checks on owners,an annual mot for every gun,this would increase gun ownership,provide more revenue/jobs,and we wouldnt be a minority any more.

[silpig5]

sorry i was one of those who went off track . but

 

yes i would have a word with my fao if i had serious concerns about someone i knew personally .

 

it is in my eyes part of your duty as a responsible fac holder . but i would have to know them well and it would not be based on hear say .

 

adi

[wymberley]

Really? I dont think so as SGC came in 1968, the 1920 firearms act banned military weapons and required certificates http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1920/43/pdfs/ukpga_19200043_en.pdf also Banned the sale of firearms to "drunk or insane persons", those under 14, etc etc

 

 

 

The legislation was to prevent an armed revolution the authorities fearing what was happening in Russia at the time.

 

Thats makes everything pretty bloody clear and it's from 1920 lets just go back to the 1920 act, 3 year certs have what you can justify a good reason to won. be it shotgun, rifle, pistol or anything else and goodluck justifying a fully auto centre fire if that's what you need.

 

 

 

Thanks I knew someone would know, doesn't sound as stringent as FAC or SGC to that matter... and judging by some of my experiences in cab recently speaking english isn't required either....

 

 

 

 

 

Probably and there will be people who have been in his cab, stood next to him in a shop (RFD, Tesco,Lidl) He was just a normal bloke until he flipped and became a murderer (they mostly all are) and just like you and I and none of us can guarantee it won't happen to us (flip that is) as none us know what we do in certain situations (except for those that have already)

So how come my SGC, albeit called a Gun Licence, is dated:- 09:26hrs 25 Aug 1958?

Edited January 3, 2012 by wymberley

[Paddy Galore!]

yes i do, i even went as far as speaking to norfolk fld, they didn't want to know, just told me to call the police.